Completely confused about Classical Conversations....

[Julpost]

There is a CC group starting in a town about 25 min. away that sounds interesting. But it seems so expensive, after all of the reg. fees, tuition fees, and books as well as the extra books we would be supplementing with. I like the simplicity of TWTM but I like the group interaction and memorization emphasis of CC. Just reading about it all and trying to figure out what our day to day life would look like is overwhelming me. I feel like throwing my hands up and saying forget it!! If anyone understands this program and could lay out how it would work for a 2nd, 4th, and 6th grader....I would so appreciate it. Because I just don't understand it!! I don't know if the problem is that it's late at night and I can't focus or if it would just be too much for me. The expense is what worries me. I have $2000 budgeted for materials and if I just followed TWTM, that'd be more than enough. But with the fees, it just covers that $2k. Then the books are an additional $700 or so. I could come up with it but I'd hate to spend all of that money and then find out the program is just too much for us right now. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.....I need my favorite midnight snack-goldfish!!:001_smile:

[Laura K (NC)]

The following is my own opinion based on my own experience. I know others have had perfectly delightful results with Classical Conversations.

 

From what I've seen locally, the teachers (uh, tutors) aren't degreed in their fields. You are paying for their time, but not their expertise. And as in public school, the teacher has a lot to do with the success of the program. Locally, one of the Challenge programs has a bad rep... I've heard negative comments from several moms who are now scrambling for an alternative.

 

 

From what I've seen also, they are not history-based. I'm not sure how they call themselves classical, except they offer Latin (and I think Greek?), and logic. The memorization aspect is impressive at first, but it isn't followed up with any kind of understanding. Lists of dates or names mean very little without context. Poetry, though... you can easily get your kids to memorize poetry. What you would be doing with Classical Conversations is following through every day to get them to memorize someone else's poetry (or etc) picks. If you are going to go through all that trouble, save your $2K and pick your own!

 

I personally don't care for someone having that much control over my curriculum, but if you are the kind of mom who needs a lot of help, then their program might be worth it to you.

 

There are CC programs all over the place here. My 7th grader has been hankering for classroom experience lately so I looked into CC yet again, and yet again I decided it just wasn't worth it.

[Alice]

Do you have the option of going and visiting one before signing up? The ones here had an open house day. That was really helpful to me to see if I wanted to do it. In the end, I decided not to although I liked the people a lot and some aspects of the curriculum/day. Seeing it helped me with visualizing how it actually worked.

[Mom0012]

I've been using CC at home for the last 3 years. I pick and choose the memory work that I think is the most relevant to us - history sentences, science facts, VP cards. The first year I had my son do the latin, math, geography and english, but then I decided to have him use a computer program for his math facts and http://www.sheppardsoftware.com for geography. We dropped the latin because I wasn't sure would were going to study latin in the future and I also had a friend who said the memory work did not help them at all when they did actually study latin. I'm not sure why?

 

Anyway, from my perspective, you spend a day at CC to be introduced to memory work that you will then work on memorizing at home each day. For me, personally, the only reason to participate in the program for the younger children is for social reasons or maybe if you can't get motivated without a group. I was so excited about this program when it first became available, I drove an hour each way to attend the coop and then realized that it was just crazy for me to do that when I could teach my son this stuff at home in 15 minutes a day. If it had been closer, it would have been more worthwhile to me at that time because maybe he would have made friends that would carry outside of the classroom.

 

At this point, there are a number of these programs available very close to my home, but I don't consider it because I don't find half of the memory work they do valuable or I have found a way to do it that is better for my kids.

 

I guess this sounds kind of negative, but I really do feel that the memory work that we have used from the program has been very helpful for my kids and really given them pegs to hang further information on when we come across it. My son has an incredible thirst and knowledge for history and the CC memory work really fed this and boosted his self esteem as well.

 

Obviously, there are a lot of people who disagree with me about the coop, because it seems to be incredibly popular. There are CC coops popping up all over the place by me.

 

Lisa

[Magnolia]

...

From what I've seen locally, the teachers (uh, tutors) aren't degreed in their fields. You are paying for their time, but not their expertise. And as in public school, the teacher has a lot to do with the success of the program. Locally, one of the Challenge programs has a bad rep... I've heard negative comments from several moms who are now scrambling for an alternative....

.

 

Having done CC for 2 years now, I agree with Laura here. The tutor will make or break the program. The strength of the director will also determine how well the group will do as a whole. You are pretty much paying for the fellowship since most of the work/memorization is done at home.

 

The larger the class, the less time per student. Our first year contained only 4 students in her age group. Lots of individual attention. Our second year contained 9 students. The tutor only had enough time to present the memorization, not to go into depth with each student.

 

The fellowship of our first year was great and we had a top-notch director and tutor. But, it was also only 20 minutes away too. We moved and the closest CC was an hour away. We tried it but the fellowship was just not there for us. The director did not have the strengths of the first director and could not pull it together. It was also hard to participate in any local activities/get-togethers with these families since we lived far away.

 

Though it was a start-up group, the others had known each other for years. One of the girls was a queen bee and was determined to leave my dd out with her "followers" supporting her. She knew how to push my dd's buttons and come out smelling like a rose and she was only 7. Since the class was large, the tutor and director did not know what was going on. They just noticed my dd's reactions. We left after the first semester. I thought I could put those two hours driving time to better use.

 

We have only done the foundations program. Essentials does not start until third grade. Need to run to church now.

 

Basically, the tutor introduces the week's material (timeline cards, history sentence, geography terms, english, latin, etc). Then if time permits, review previous weeks' matls. There will be a science experiment, art or music project, and snack break. Then at noon, have lunch together and 1/2 hour of play. Then if you are not in essentials or challenge, you go home.

[Julpost]

I appreciate the replies. I think we might skip on the program this year. It's just too much money. Unfortunately I sold my copy of TWTM a few months before we decided to bring the kids home so I'll be ordering a new copy!

 

I feel badly though, a friend of mine is starting the group and I was hoping to help support it. It sounded great.

[Magnolia]

I happened to re-read your original post and wanted to point out (which you may already be aware of) is that CC is not a complete program. It is just a memorization program. We still have our own math program, history program, phonics/reading program, latin etc.

 

CC foundations is just an additional program itself-learning memorization skills. So, on top of the CC fees-$50 registration, $50 supply fee, $312 tuition/class fee, all times 3 kids, $50 foundation book (good for all years). memory cd and powerpoint (good only for current year) ~$50 (which I highly recommend), and the 5 sets of VP cards ~$100. You really don't need any of the other books. We rarely opened them since we had our own history, geography, science programs. The science experiments, art projects, music project are all done in class so you don't need to prep for them. And some groups charge a facility fee for use of the church/building. And for your two older students if you put them in essentials or challenge, the $$ add up because of the increase in tuition plus you need the books used in those programs. With foundations and essentials/challenge, you may have a complete curriculum (covers all your bases). But I don't know since we only do foundations.

 

Please don't feel bad about not supporting your friend in this expensive memorization program. It is very costly especially if you have more than one child. Another option is becoming a tutor to help offset the costs. From what I was told, the tutors split 60% of the tuition/class fee and the director keeps 40% + left over supply fees.

 

With just the foundations book, cd/powerpoint (which really is optional), and vp cards, you can do the memorization part at home. :)

[Julpost]

Well that makes it very clear then, I can't spend all of my hs budget on just a memorization program. Crazy....

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Then the books are an additional $700 or so.

 

The only book you need for CC foundations is the Foundations Guide which is $50 and good for all three cycles for all your kids. All the other books are gravy and imo unnecessary.

[EowynR]

From what I've seen also, they are not history-based. I'm not sure how they call themselves classical, except they offer Latin (and I think Greek?), and logic. The memorization aspect is impressive at first, but it isn't followed up with any kind of understanding. Lists of dates or names mean very little without context.

 

To me, a "classical" education is based on the Trivium and the Quadrivium (you've probably hear the term "quad" in a college reference). This is the mediaeval scheme of education. The Trivium consists of three stages according to a child's development -- grammar, dialectic (logic), and finally rhetoric. An explanation is found in Dorothy Sayers' essay called "The Lost Tools of Learning". The essay is in many locations on the web, here's one: http://www.logosschool.com/files/LostTools.asp.

 

Since homeschoolers are probably not granting bachelor's degrees, we focus on the Trivium. It can also be represented in the proverbial way: "knowledge, understanding, wisdom".

 

Classical education, according to those who follow Sayer's ideas, is a method of a child's total education, which focuses not on "subjects" at all in the early or grammar stage. At the early stage, children do best with straight memorization and once they learn and memorize facts, they can build on them when they reach the "ability to reason" stage at about age 10.

 

I'm pursuing CC for my children because I've always believed in this method as making logical sense. I wanted them to attend a private school based on this method, but there aren't any in my locality and I do like homeschooling better. In my personal education having a firm grasp of facts or a timeline gave me something to build on when I was older. Simply studying subjects were a waste of my childhood time, because most of those "surveys" have flown out of my head.

 

But yes, most of this program certainly can be accomplished at home. There are certain things about getting together to do the memory work that made it more enjoyable for my children last year. I also learned a lot from the tutors about some ideas for helping them memorize the material. (I did not expect or demand perfection from the tutors; I felt it was a team effort). Also, a big focus of the program is practicing presentation skills every week. The presentation practice is one of the main reasons parents choose CC groups -- it's not as easily accomplished at home, especially if you have an only child). The goal is that the students will grow up feeling very natural in presenting ideas in front of a group, which is a goal of education -- the ability to persuade others and defend truths.

 

In practical practice, most parents make the CC memory/geography/fine arts work a small part of the day's activities at home and in the car with the Audio CD. At home they still work on math skills, spelling, science, history, literature.

[Laura K (NC)]

The trivium and quadrivium originally come from the seven liberal arts of the classical world.

The trivium was grammar, rhetoric, and logic,

The quadrivium was arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. I don't think anyone, not even "classical" homeschoolers, focus only on the trivium. Further, the quadrivium was a preparation for the highest sciences of philosophy and theology. The founder of Classical Conversations would tell you quickly that theology is integral to even the "Foundations" level, and grammar, rhetoric, and logic are not the only things taught in that program before university.

 

Memorization is good, certainly, but I'm questioning the methods. Classroom experience is good for some students, as long as the teacher is good and the parent isn't comfortable taking on a child's education himself. In fact, that's CC's main apologia -- to be a help to the parents who don't think they can do it alone. I disagree that a classroom is necessary for a child to gain the skills to be able to defend his convictions. I think that comes to those who desire it from books and intelligent discussion outside of a classroom. And to those who don't desire it, a classroom won't help all that much.

[Frelle]

I am doing Foundations for the 4th year in a row, and my oldest starts Essentials this year. I am feeling pretty nervous about adding Essentials into our lives!!! I would love to talk to anyone who has been with the program a little longer than I have to get some online support! :)

 

Other than Foundations and Essentials (Essentials of the English Language and US History Based Writing), Grace is doing spelling/dictation, bible/character training, handbook of nature study, and math. She will also be doing narration with assigned reading from books from the Year 3 list from ambleside online.