s/o home schooling too popular...the future of hsing regulation?

[Rosy]

All of my posts were in regards to the law in my state, which I stated clearly.

My apologies--I thought you were extrapolating CA's rules onto other states. Personally I don't see how CA's rules can be at all constitutional.

 

74Heaven--I think the difference is that an ALE is not the same as a traditional brick & mortar public school. We don't have the same rules. I know there are specific requirements for high school, I'm not there yet so I don't know what they are.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Rosy

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

My apologies--I thought you were extrapolating CA's rules onto other states. Personally I don't see how CA's rules can be at all constitutional.

Quite alright:001_smile: They are constitutional because the state isn't supposed to be endorsing/teaching a religion. They are just too dense to realize they actually are;)

 

ETA that is also has to do with the fact that when you join a charter/etc you are operating as a public school and are subject to the same laws as a brick and mortar school.

[Beth in SW WA]

I understand that. But I cannot see how what I use my own money for can be regulated in that way. :confused: People who use brick and mortar schools (tax payer funded) can use whatever they want to supplement their dc's education. How is this any different?

 

 

But sign up for the local S.D. Home-Link program and they are giving you moeny and they want to know that your child is doing reading, writing and arithmetic within a certain overall "grade level". The oversight is based on the fact that state funds are being used - and those funds are tied to State Learning Requirements. It gets dicier the closer you get to high school.

 

 

Last year dd took a high school level class at our local ALE (Vancouver's version of Home-Link). Who else will let an eager 7th grader take Spanish 1 with 9th & 10th graders besides an ALE? It was a brilliant scenario. :)

 

We didn't report on any subject outside of the courses she took at the ALE. I had to tell them how many hours she studied Spanish 1 at home. They didn't care about other materials we used.

 

We received state funding for her Spanish. This year we are getting those funds via CVA with the same minimal evasiveness and control.

 

It's a win-win so far, especially for us. The value of that Spanish program was worth it's weight in gold.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Last year dd took a high school level class at our local ALE (Vancouver's version of Home-Link). Who else will let an eager 7th grader take Spanish 1 with 9th & 10th graders besides an ALE? It was a brilliant scenario. :)

 

We didn't report on any subject outside of the courses she took at the ALE. I had to tell them how many hours she studied Spanish 1 at home. They didn't care about other materials we used.

 

We received state funding for her Spanish. This year we are getting those funds via CVA with the same minimal evasiveness and control.

 

It's a win-win so far, especially for us. The value of that Spanish program was worth it's weight in gold.

 

There are no such programs in my state. You either belong to a charter or you don't, and if you belong to a charter you are part of the public school system for all courses and subject to public school laws. It probably has to do with how homeschooling is legal in each state.

[Beth in SW WA]

Going to church is not part of school. You can do whatever you want outside of school hours but if you are part of a public school program you are subject to the same laws as all public schools, which means all the instruction must be non-sectarian. You can supplement with whatever you choose but it must be in addition to the non-sectarian curriculum and outside school hours, the same as if they were in a brick and mortar school.

 

 

ETA that is also has to do with the fact that when you join a charter/etc you are operating as a public school and are subject to the same laws as a brick and mortar school.

 

A CA public school student can pray, read his/her Bible during class, lunch, breaks, etc. on a public school campus. Are you saying that a student in a CA charter school at home (such as K/12) cannot read the Bible during school hours?

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

A CA public school student can pray, read his/her Bible during class, lunch, breaks, etc. on a public school campus. Are you saying that a student in a CA charter school at home (such as K/12) cannot read the Bible during school hours?

No, I'm saying that all their school subjects must be non-sectarian. I was replying to the following post, which was in reply to my stating that when part of a charter school in CA you must use non-sectarian curricula for all subjects regardless of who pays for it.

 

So, people who use public schools or charters or VAs can't take their dc to church? Can't own bibles?

 

I think we are blurring two different things here. You cannot use tax dollars to buy religious materials. You cannot use tax dollars to start a religious based charter. But you can buy whatever you want with your own money.

 

Yes, you can buy whatever you want with your own money but you can't use it as your curriculum if you (in CA) are part of a charter school because you have to follow the education code.

 

ETA, I'm referring to the general "you" that lives in CA to elaborate on the quote. Obviously, CA law doesn't apply to you (Beth) personally.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Cheryl in SoCal

[Elizabeth in WA]

This thread made me curious what rules actually are in WA. At the least, I don't believe the Office of the Supervisor of Public Instruction interprets it the way Beth and, apparently, CVA do.

 

http://www.k12.wa.us/alternativeed/FAQ.aspx#instruction

 

Can religious or sectarian materials be used to accomplish the learning goals and performance objectives specified in the WSLP?

 

The simple answer is no. For greater clarification, this question is broken into the following two questions and resulting answers.

Must a school district assume and exercise responsibility for the instructional content of a student's alternative learning experience, including the instructional or learning materials used by the student, as a condition to claiming state funding based on the time spent by the student while engaged in such activities?

 

May a school disclaim responsibility in whole or part for the instructional content of a student's off-campus learning activities or permit non-school district personnel to select the instructional or learning material used by the student and, nevertheless, claim state funding so long as the student meets performance expectations?

 

The short answer to the first question is "yes" and the short answer to the second question is "no."

 

The Superintendent of Public Instruction is directed by state law to distribute basic education allocation funding to each school district "operating" a basic education program approved by the State Board of Education. The basis for distribution is the number of average annual full-time equivalent students enrolled in, or participating in, the educational program that a district is "operating." (See RCW 28A.150.250.) The term "operate" is defined in relevant part as meaning "to control or direct the functioning of." Thus, to claim state funding for the time spent by a student enrolled in an alternative learning experience, a district must have assumed and exercised control or direction over at least the essential components of the educational activity that the student engaged in.

 

Logic dictates that the instructional content of a student's learning activities, inclusive of the instructional materials used, is an essential component of an educational program that a school district must assume and exercise direction or control over as a condition to claiming that the district is "operating" the program. This conclusion is buttressed by RCW 28A.320.330, which highlights the importance placed upon the selection and use of instructional materials by requiring the establishment of instruction materials' committees and the approval or disapproval of instruction materials by a district's board of directors.

 

Furthermore, in determining the appropriateness of instructional materials in alternative learning experience programs, school districts should apply the same standards and criteria that apply to classroom instructional materials. This does not mean that the material must be designed for public school classroom use, but that the materials must not be of a nature that would preclude their use in a public school classroom. Parents or other non-school district personnel may of course select alternative instructional materials for a student's use at other times outside the time devoted to meeting the learning goals and performance objectives of the district-approved written student learning plan.

 

Thus, for a district to claim state funding for time spent by a student while engaged in alternative learning experiences, the district must have assumed and exercised responsibility for the selection of the instructional materials used by the student in accordance with RCW 28A.320.330. Following the "performance only" logic of the second question would likely lead to erroneous state funding for learning experiences that occur away from school which the state and its school districts have assumed no responsibility for, including off-campus private school or private parochial school study.

 

I could be wrong, but this seems to imply that if you are enrolled for the subject, you have to use public school appropriate materials for it. You could just lower your enrollment percentage and not include the subject or get funding based on the higher enrollment percentage, but you can' be reporting - enrolled in - a subject for which you are using sectarian materials as primary instructional materials even if you paid for them yourself.

[74Heaven]

Last year dd took a high school level class at our local ALE (Vancouver's version of Home-Link). Who else will let an eager 7th grader take Spanish 1 with 9th & 10th graders besides an ALE? It was a brilliant scenario. :)

 

We didn't report on any subject outside of the courses she took at the ALE. I had to tell them how many hours she studied Spanish 1 at home. They didn't care about other materials we used.

 

We received state funding for her Spanish. This year we are getting those funds via CVA with the same minimal evasiveness and control.

 

First to answer your question/comment: almost every home-schooling co op I know about places students via ability rather than age? Currently, I am teaching a high school Latin class with a 6th grader (with virtually no previous Latin experience) in it. Great student; no problem.

 

If you are saying your daughter attended a public school alternative education site where Spanish 1 was taught (Vancouver ALE) - and then you also got money for that? Totally unfamiliar with that scenario unless your reimbursement was for Spanish books?

 

Not sure what you are saying because if your daughter was being educated by the ALE "by a certificated teacher with state-approved curriculum" then, I guess I don't see why is what you are using at home relevant? It would be like the "afterschooling" example I used. And why they would reimburse you for that if the ALE provides the teacher and selects the curriculum?

 

Is that the scenario? I must be missing something?

 

lisaj

[74Heaven]

74Heaven--I think the difference is that an ALE is not the same as a traditional brick & mortar public school. We don't have the same rules. I know there are specific requirements for high school, I'm not there yet so I don't know what they are.

 

So, I'm not sure what the above is referring to. If it is regarding my gf and her public-schooled 4.0 students and Core Math - that was just aside. Kind of a testament to inflexibilty.

 

Lisaj,

[LUV2EDU]

This thread made me curious what rules actually are in WA. At the least, I don't believe the Office of the Supervisor of Public Instruction interprets it the way Beth and, apparently, CVA do.

 

http://www.k12.wa.us/alternativeed/FAQ.aspx#instruction

 

 

 

I could be wrong, but this seems to imply that if you are enrolled for the subject, you have to use public school appropriate materials for it. You could just lower your enrollment percentage and not include the subject or get funding based on the higher enrollment percentage, but you can' be reporting - enrolled in - a subject for which you are using sectarian materials as primary instructional materials even if you paid for them yourself.

 

Here is a link to Washington's Home-based Instruction vs Alternative Learning Exp. Programs comparison chart http://www.washhomeschool.org/homeschooling/whoAltEd.html

[Beth in SW WA]

Here is a link to Washington's Home-based Instruction vs Alternative Learning Exp. Programs comparison chart http://www.washhomeschool.org/homeschooling/whoAltEd.html

 

WHO is anti-ALE/VA. More links on their site show this bias. They hold workshops often to warn folks of the 'danger' of ALEs. I'm not a fan of WHO.

 

This thread made me curious what rules actually are in WA. At the least, I don't believe the Office of the Supervisor of Public Instruction interprets it the way Beth and, apparently, CVA do.

 

http://www.k12.wa.us/alternativeed/FAQ.aspx#instruction

 

 

 

I could be wrong, but this seems to imply that if you are enrolled for the subject, you have to use public school appropriate materials for it. You could just lower your enrollment percentage and not include the subject or get funding based on the higher enrollment percentage, but you can' be reporting - enrolled in - a subject for which you are using sectarian materials as primary instructional materials even if you paid for them yourself.

 

In my case, we already use secular materials. I use multiple resources in EVERY subject. (I'm an Ãœber-schooler, it would appear.) It's a non-issue as far as reporting. I meet all our 'learning goals' with secular materials. I supplement with faith-based materials. What I do with my students on my time is my business.

 

At this point, I only receive funding for enrichment classes: art, piano and violin. I will be adding swimming and Spanish soon. CVA does not purchase my materials or supplies... (yet:)).

[Elizabeth in WA]

In my case, we already use secular materials. I use multiple resources in EVERY subject. (I'm an Ãœber-schooler, it would appear.) It's a non-issue as far as reporting. I meet all our 'learning goals' with secular materials. I supplement with faith-based materials. What I do with my students on my time is my business.

 

At this point, I only receive funding for enrichment classes: art, piano and violin. I will be adding swimming and Spanish soon. CVA does not purchase my materials or supplies... (yet:)).

 

As I understand it, you may only get reimbursed for the enrichment classes, but technically you are funded based on your percentage enrollment and would need to be reporting enough subjects to justify that percentage enrollment. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you only enroll for Art and Music, that would be a small percentage enrollment and limit the amount of funding they would make available to you far more than if you enroll full time but only ask for reimbursement for Art and Music materials / community based instruction with a wide scale in between.

[Beth in SW WA]

If you are saying your daughter attended a public school alternative education site where Spanish 1 was taught (Vancouver ALE) - and then you also got money for that? Totally unfamiliar with that scenario unless your reimbursement was for Spanish books?

 

No, I received no money. I was responding to your statement here:

 

But sign up for the local S.D. Home-Link program and they are giving you moeny and they want to know that your child is doing reading, writing and arithmetic within a certain overall "grade level".

 

That isn't the case with me. I did no extra reporting. If you take some courses via ALE, you only report on those.

[Beth in SW WA]

As I understand it, you may only get reimbursed for the enrichment classes, but technically you are funded based on your percentage enrollment and would need to be reporting enough subjects to justify that percentage enrollment. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you only enroll for Art and Music, that would be a small percentage enrollment and limit the amount of funding they would make available to you far more than if you enroll full time but only ask for reimbursement for Art and Music materials / community based instruction with a wide scale in between.

 

Yes, up to $1200/year per student. We are new as of August and I don't know the amount the others have received in the past, or what they will receive this year. I hope to receive the full allotment. Anything could change, though. The dollar is tanking and that could effect state budgets.

[Elizabeth in WA]

Yes, up to $1200/year per student. We are new as of August and I don't know the amount the others have received in the past, or what they will receive this year. I hope to receive the full allotment. Anything could change, though. The dollar is tanking and that could effect state budgets.

 

So that means, per the link to the FAQ by the OSPI:

 

May a school disclaim responsibility in whole or part for the instructional content of a student's off-campus learning activities or permit non-school district personnel to select the instructional or learning material used by the student and, nevertheless, claim state funding so long as the student meets performance expectations?

... the short answer ... is "no."

... Thus, to claim state funding for the time spent by a student enrolled in an alternative learning experience, a district must have assumed and exercised control or direction over at least the essential components of the educational activity that the student engaged in.

Logic dictates that the instructional content of a student's learning activities, inclusive of the instructional materials used, is an essential component of an educational program that a school district must assume and exercise direction or control over as a condition to claiming that the district is "operating" the program.

...

Furthermore, in determining the appropriateness of instructional materials in alternative learning experience programs, school districts should apply the same standards and criteria that apply to classroom instructional materials. This does not mean that the material must be designed for public school classroom use, but that the materials must not be of a nature that would preclude their use in a public school classroom. Parents or other non-school district personnel may of course select alternative instructional materials for a student's use at other times outside the time devoted to meeting the learning goals and performance objectives of the district-approved written student learning plan.

 

...for all required academic subjects for a full time student.

 

I know you said this doesn't affect you because you use secular materials, and I am not actually against your choice to use CVA. I don't mean to be picking on you in particular and apologize if it comes across as in any way personal. It;s not meant that way.

 

I just want to be clear for the larger debate in this thread that if you are enrolled full time, it does not matter whether or not the ALE or VA is paying for the materials. They still "must not be of a nature that would preclude their use in a public school classroom" which precludes sectarian materials.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Bottom line: do VAs undermine independent homeschooling? If yes, prove it and make your case as to what should be done about it. If my choices do not undermine your choices, you don't have the right to determine whether my choices are right or wrong. As far as I can tell, VAs do not undermine independent homeschooling; therefore, my decision to use or not use on is none of anyone else's business. If I choose to submit myself to the gov't for my childrens education and am willing to follow certain requirements as a result, I am not hurting anyone and will not be made to feel guilty for doing what is best for my kids.

Rosy, my original intention and the question of this thread, the future of home school regulation, is answered as: the face of non-brick and mortar schooling is changing as educational options change, and some crossover between bricks and houses has developed. What that means for independent home schooling is yet to be determined. It's an area to keep an eye on for sure, just as I keep an eye on education as a whole. I will heed the advice of people who pay closer attention than I.

 

I'm not determining your choices as wrong (and I don't think anyone here is either), especially b/c overall, I believe You should have the choice on how to educate your family. Please don't take this thread as a guilt trip or that I am/we are condemning you for doing what is best for your kids in your opinion. Nobody here knows what's best for your family better than you.

 

My hope is that nobody gets to where CA is...no legal home schooling...and that perhaps the middle ground of Beth's VA stays middle ground and doesn't ever encroach on folks who would not be interested in any gov't support. I'll be watching for that, too.

 

No condemnation on individual home schoolers, I simply am choosing to watch out as laws change that affect the home schooling community....legally, that kind of includes "public schoolers" now, so I had better pay attention.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Rosy, my original intention and the question of this thread, the future of home school regulation, is answered as: the face of non-brick and mortar schooling is changing as educational options change, and some crossover between bricks and houses has developed. What that means for independent home schooling is yet to be determined. It's an area to keep an eye on for sure, just as I keep an eye on education as a whole. I will heed the advice of people who pay closer attention than I.

 

I'm not determining your choices as wrong (and I don't think anyone here is either), especially b/c overall, I believe You should have the choice on how to educate your family. Please don't take this thread as a guilt trip or that I am/we are condemning you for doing what is best for your kids in your opinion. Nobody here knows what's best for your family better than you.

 

My hope is that nobody gets to where CA is...no legal home schooling...and that perhaps the middle ground of Beth's VA stays middle ground and doesn't ever encroach on folks who would not be interested in any gov't support. I'll be watching for that, too.

 

No condemnation on individual home schoolers, I simply am choosing to watch out as laws change that affect the home schooling community....legally, that kind of includes "public schoolers" now, so I had better pay attention.

I wouldn't say there is no legal homeschooling, per se. Legally, nobody in CA is defined as a "homeschool." Either you are part of the state (charter, etc), part of a private school (file your own affidavit or belong to a Private school Satellite Program) or hire a certified private tutor. Those of us who homeschool independently (not under the state) do so as part of a (or our own) private school.

 

ETA in regards to legality in regards to sectarian homeschoolers; in order to homeschool using sectarian material one must not be part of a state program.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Cheryl in SoCal

[Beth in SW WA]

So that means, per the link to the FAQ by the OSPI:

 

 

 

...for all required academic subjects for a full time student.

 

I know you said this doesn't affect you because you use secular materials, and I am not actually against your choice to use CVA. I don't mean to be picking on you in particular and apologize if it comes across as in any way personal. It;s not meant that way.

 

I just want to be clear for the larger debate in this thread that if you are enrolled full time, it does not matter whether or not the ALE or VA is paying for the materials. They still "must not be of a nature that would preclude their use in a public school classroom" which precludes sectarian materials.

 

No worries, Elizabeth. These questions are valid.

 

I use whatever I want with my kids on my own time as long as I am meeting the essential learning requirements of the state using secular primary learning materials. I do that...with style. :)

 

I'd love to keep chatting but I have dinner to serve, Mt. Laundry to climb and children to teach. I'm new to CVA and don't want to misspeak. I only refer to my family's experience and our new journey with CVA.

 

Any other questions regarding CVA can be directed to them.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Beth in SW WA
can't spell

[FairProspects]

Just to add this to the discussion - under current CVA guidelines if you drop below 75% enrollment you have ZERO access to any funding. So there is no possibility of part-time enrollment in non-sectarian subjects and it is pretty much an all or nothing proposition. How does that affect the discussion?

 

(By the way I am learning a lot from you all, thanks for the civil discussion about some issues I hadn't really thought about.)

[Rosy]

Elizabeth, thank you for posting the law. It is helpful. :)

 

The laws regarding use of religious materials has either changed since I enrolled or were mispresented. I was told there is "a difference between being on public time and using the public dime." This was by another VA I was considering at the time, not CVA, FYI.

 

So, I'm not sure what the above is referring to. If it is regarding my gf and her public-schooled 4.0 students and Core Math - that was just aside. Kind of a testament to inflexibilty.

 

Lisaj,

No, it was referring to your comments on earning a diploma. It was just to say that we are meeting the CVA requirements to receive a CVA diploma. :)

 

In my case, we already use secular materials. I use multiple resources in EVERY subject. (I'm an Ãœber-schooler, it would appear.) It's a non-issue as far as reporting. I meet all our 'learning goals' with secular materials. I supplement with faith-based materials. What I do with my students on my time is my business.

:iagree: Uber-schooler...now that is a label I would wear proudly!;)

 

Rosy, my original intention and the question of this thread, the future of home school regulation, is answered as: the face of non-brick and mortar schooling is changing as educational options change, and some crossover between bricks and houses has developed. What that means for independent home schooling is yet to be determined. It's an area to keep an eye on for sure, just as I keep an eye on education as a whole. I will heed the advice of people who pay closer attention than I.

 

I'm not determining your choices as wrong (and I don't think anyone here is either), especially b/c overall, I believe You should have the choice on how to educate your family. Please don't take this thread as a guilt trip or that I am/we are condemning you for doing what is best for your kids in your opinion. Nobody here knows what's best for your family better than you.

 

My hope is that nobody gets to where CA is...no legal home schooling...and that perhaps the middle ground of Beth's VA stays middle ground and doesn't ever encroach on folks who would not be interested in any gov't support. I'll be watching for that, too.

 

No condemnation on individual home schoolers, I simply am choosing to watch out as laws change that affect the home schooling community....legally, that kind of includes "public schoolers" now, so I had better pay attention.

I appreciate that, and I respect that we all need to be vigilant. I will be the first one to fight for someone's right to homeschool independently of the government, whether I take gov't money or not. I appreciate your willingness to look at the complexity of the issue...many homeschoolers don't. One of my best friends left a moms' overnight held by her co-op because the leader was on a rampage against VAs and wouldn't stop ranting (the whole group was involved in the rant, except my friend. She's not part of a VA, but just has this problem with dogmatism). It's a sensitive issue for me because of all the hostility...I appreciate your (and others') willingness to withhold judgment.

 

Just to add this to the discussion - under current CVA guidelines if you drop below 75% enrollment you have ZERO access to any funding. So there is no possibility of part-time enrollment in non-sectarian subjects and it is pretty much an all or nothing proposition. How does that affect the discussion?

 

(By the way I am learning a lot from you all, thanks for the civil discussion about some issues I hadn't really thought about.)

I hadn't heard that. My kindy daughter is enrolled 50% and has access to funds...but kindy might be different.

[Linda1951]

I live in Texas and homeschooling is not regulated or tested or anything, which is great.

I fear though that since all states need money, ours will

start demanding testing and charging the homeschool family a lot for it to make up for the schools defisate. (sp)

we will be through in 18 months , but I feel that future homeschoolers will be paying for it. did that make sense.

and Yes there are a lot of people out there homeschooling and not really teaching them anything.

I have a niece that took her kids out last summer, and did not start to homeschool them, till January of this year because they were taking trips to the rose bowl, and all over the place. No schooling for 6 months. I did not care for that. and from what I am seeing her talk now about they are doing very little now. oh, well. She lives out in the country and figures no one sees what she does. I have warned her but she does not listen.

 

since the school systems do not have money and there are more and more homeschoolers they will take money from us rather than deal with the real problem, over paid administrators.

hope I did not offend anyone.