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johnandtinagilbert

s/o home schooling too popular...the future of hsing regulation?

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I think that Laughing Lioness may be on to something...that sense of entitlement.

 

Faith

 

:iagree: My son is young and a few times I've heard "that's not my job" escape his lip about some chore. :glare:Let's just say he knows better now.

 

I watch a lot of HGTV, House Hunters, My first place, etc. and it sometimes blows my mind what people expect in a first house. I watched a show last night about rental property and the young girls had toured one property, which looked perfectly acceptable as a rental, and at the end they asked the owner to upgrade something before they would move in, like that was standard. Maybe that's a bad example, but it reeked of entitlement.

 

I wish my dh could/would open a construction boot camp to show some of these young men and women what hard physical labor is really like. Nothing wrong with it when that is what you chose to do, but there have been many times over the years my dh wishes he had more options.

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We just got home from McDonald's, and the young adult who took our order had a difficult time taking the correct order and putting it together in a bag. I told dd that could be her fate if she does not get a good education. I didn't get any eye-rolling since dd was about fall on the floor with frustration and laughter as I tried to deal with the situation. As we left, dd remarked, "Well, that was a Marmee moment." Using every opportunity to teach, we talked about working on proficiency with her instrument as a sideline way to earn money; i.e. the accompanist for upcoming recital charges $30 per half hour. Cha, ching! We also talked about education through a master's degree and high demand careers. The vicissitudes of life bring many challenges, and I wish I had more foresight.

 

Btw, I hate to see the lack of focus in many homeschool families, especially for their sons. I hear of few homeschooled boys in our neck of the swamp aiming for challenging careers. While not all of our dc have or will follow our advice, we still lay out the options.

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I don't know if libraries have 2 Million Minutes yet. My friend bought it along w/ the companion DVDs showing in depth coverage of the 2 students in each of China, Japan, and India. The first DVD gives the general synopsis. Let me tell you, it was shocking some of the stats they quoted. I've always questioned these stats, thinking it was one poorly designed study that every one is quoting but the more I talk to people, the more it seems it is true. Stats such as 80% of US students (middle school to high school) are not proficient in math or reading. In the video, a professor here in the US who grew up in India spoke regarding the entitlement issue that has been mentioned here as well as kids in the US not suffering. WHereas in INdia, so many live in poverty, education is the only way out. Kids give their education every ounce they have to give. Not so in the US.

 

Also if you get the DVDs, on each one, they give the complete high school course load and extracurricular load for each of the 8 students in the film.

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Guest Dulcimeramy

Indianapolis libraries have 2 Million Minutes, and the follow-up version (also titled 2 Million Minutes) which is about a charter school.

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do you think this has to do with the sense of entitlement that seems so prevelant in America?

My dd went to college 2 1/2 yrs ago after living in an ex-communist country on and off for a couple of years and on her conservative, inexpensive campus she was clearly in the minority of American kids who did not come with laptop, high end cell phone, hip wardrobe and a car. She is in the minority of Americans who are working to pay for expenses rather than taking out loans and she's had foreigners ask her if she is a refugee (ohmy!) as well as tell her that she doesn't work like an American (she works "hard" like a foreigner).

hooo, this is gonna get me started. I cannot even BEGIN to tell you what Bull*&^% we have to deal with at work because everyone thinks they deserve _____.

 

No. No one works hard. They have NO concept and I'll be ****ed if my kids turn out the same way.

 

I think that might be a large part of it.

 

Regarding lower standards:

I received a letter written by a junior in our high school. She was new to the neighborhood and introducing herself as she hoped to get babysitting jobs. The letter was poorly written. It was horrible but I would have been VERY disappointed if my high school junior had written such a letter. And that's not the worst of it. She is HONORS English, HONORS science, and HONORS History! You would think she'd know how to write w/out repeating I, putting in irrelevant info, run on sentences, poor word choice, subject verb disagreement. I don't believe there were any spelling errors though. And we're supposed to be one of the great districts in my state.

 

Dd 15 gets asked every week to please come back to PS (her grades are very high there) and I tell her she is NUTS to even consider it (no, she doesn't have a choice ;-)). Last year I knew an AP English student who was reading THE SCARLETT LETTER -this for college credit. :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh: Dd read that in 8th grade!!!!! Flipping 8th grade! Are they NUTS? So no, being in Honors classes means nothing. *nothing*

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do you think this has to do with the sense of entitlement that seems so prevelant in America?

My dd went to college 2 1/2 yrs ago after living in an ex-communist country on and off for a couple of years and on her conservative, inexpensive campus she was clearly in the minority of American kids who did not come with laptop, high end cell phone, hip wardrobe and a car. She is in the minority of Americans who are working to pay for expenses rather than taking out loans and she's had foreigners ask her if she is a refugee (ohmy!) as well as tell her that she doesn't work like an American (she works "hard" like a foreigner). I think there is such a sense of "my kids is accelerated (see, they are reading at the 8th grade level at age 7) that they can't accept the fact that they have normal kids that will have to work hard in life. When you work, you are making choices to not be entertained, or to play or to have liesure. It's a lifestyle/worldview choice. Again, 2 million minutes reality check.

Yes. Most kids don't know what hard work is anymore. Sad and true.

 

I think that might be a large part of it.

 

Regarding lower standards:

I received a letter written by a junior in our high school. She was new to the neighborhood and introducing herself as she hoped to get babysitting jobs. The letter was poorly written. It was horrible but I would have been VERY disappointed if my high school junior had written such a letter. And that's not the worst of it. She is HONORS English, HONORS science, and HONORS History! You would think she'd know how to write w/out repeating I, putting in irrelevant info, run on sentences, poor word choice, subject verb disagreement. I don't believe there were any spelling errors though. And we're supposed to be one of the great districts in my state.

 

I didn't get a chance to finish my post above regarding high school and the honors student. I've heard in our district that if your DC isn't in the honors track, they will be invisible. My sense is that HONORS is really the average tier and if you're not HONORS you're in the below avg tier. I think it's a smoke screen to convince parents they are getting a lot for all the taxes we pay. The difference between HONORS and regular track is that you read a few extra books and write an extra paper, otherwise, my understanding is that the course content is the same. I think the dumbing down is rampant and I'm saddened to see that it is also affecting the homeschool community as well.
I completely get that impression, too. Honors when I went to school meant something. Every kid I know who's in "honors" is not impressive. There's a mom at our coop whose son is in a "great honors magnet program." The info. she shares always leaves me wondering, "What's so honors about that? Isn't that normal or average?"

 

So, iyo, does this mean when my dcs transcripts read, "Honors Literature" colleges will see it as "whatever"?

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So, iyo, does this mean when my dcs transcripts read, "Honors Literature" colleges will see it as "whatever"?

 

Well, I elected not to use the word Honors on my daughter's transcript simply because its meaning can be uncertain. BUT if you provide course descriptions with your child's transcript, the college can see the content of your classes.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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I agree the work ethic currently stinks in America. My DH has the hardest time finding good workers to hire.

 

I will say that I graduated only 14 years ago. It sounds longer now that I have typed it. I didn't think it was that long ago. ;) Anyway, public high school was nothing more than a waste of time. I did learn something in Math class and not much else. When I hit Honors English in college I was surprised when my paper came back covered in red ink. It was a comma splice massacre. Never once in high school do I remember my paper coming back with any grammar corrections and I was an honor student and took upper level courses. I have a hard time imagining homeschoolers as an overall group doing worse the public school children. Yes, there will be some but I really think that will be the minority and I'm not sure that colleges are going to start looking down on homeschoolers anytime soon, especially if you hand them a great SAT or ACT score to boot.

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CVA is a school district. Yes, I am a homeschooler reimbursed with state funds. From my taxes. I use my own materials & tutors -- some faith-based. CVA dictates nothing. I report what we do. Very simple.

 

In Washington, if your child is enrolled full time in CVA, he or she is considered a public school student. The term "homeschooling" in Washington is a legal designation, and has nothing to do with where your child is being educated.

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In Washington, if your child is enrolled full time in CVA, he or she is considered a public school student. The term "homeschooling" in Washington is a legal designation, and has nothing to do with where your child is being educated.

 

I have no problem with the legal designation. My kids have gone to private, public and home school. Dd takes 3 classes from Potters School and attends a local physical science class with homeschoolers. For my family, this hybrid approach has been fantastic. My ds & dds are advanced academically, balanced and happy.

 

Dd took high school Spanish 1 at our local public school district last year as a 7th grader. This year, she is taking high school Spanish 2 with a tutor -- paid for by CVA. Public doesn't have a stigma with me -- as it does with many others here. Each of us are on our own journey.

 

I have one in private (and most likely 2 next year) and 2 at home as registered students of CVA. Since I teach them full-time at home with outside enrichment classes -- and no outside organization is dictating/requiring what I teach (although I am heavily influenced from these boards :)) -- I consider us homeschoolers who receive public funds. Regardless of the legal definition, it doesn't change what we accomplish each day.

 

The argument that I am somehow damaging the future of homeschooling by doing this (receiving state funds via CVA) does not resonate with me. Yes, homeschool pioneers struggled to reach legal status. I applaud those who have gone before us. We stand on the shoulder of giants. But today is today. Our hybrid approach works -- and works well here for our family. Look at my blog. My kids are thriving in all aspects of life (by the grace of God) -- despite the fact that we receive money from the 'evil' public school system. :)

 

I will receive about $3000 from the state this year as reimbursement for my dds' private art classes, piano lessons, voice lessons, violin lessons and any other tutors whom I deem qualified to teach them.

 

I highly recommend ALEs like CVA to other parents who are looking at alternatives. If you want to control your students' educations without outside influence/assistance, you can. If you need help, they will offer it. The beauty is choice.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I have no problem with the legal designation. My kids have gone to private, public and home school. Dd takes 3 classes from Potters School and attends a local physical science class with homeschoolers. For my family, this hybrid approach has been fantastic. My ds & dds are advanced academically, balanced and happy.

 

Dd took high school Spanish 1 at our local public school district last year as a 7th grader. This year, she is taking high school Spanish 2 with a tutor -- paid for by CVA. Public doesn't have a stigma with me -- as it does with many others here. Each of us are on our own journey.

 

I have one in private (and most likely 2 next year) and 2 at home as registered students of CVA. Since I teach them full-time at home with outside enrichment classes -- and no outside organization is dictating/requiring what I teach (although I am heavily influenced from these boards :)) -- I consider us homeschoolers who receive public funds. Regardless of the legal definition, it doesn't change what we accomplish each day.

 

The argument that I am somehow damaging the future of homeschooling by doing this (receiving state funds via CVA) does not resonate with me. Yes, homeschool pioneers struggled to reach legal status. I applaud those who have gone before us. We stand on the shoulder of giants. But today is today. Our hybrid approach works -- and works well here for our family. Look at my blog. My kids are thriving in all aspects of life (by the grace of God) -- despite the fact that we receive money from the 'evil' public school system. :)

 

I will receive about $5000 from the state this year as reimbursement for my dds' private art classes, piano lessons, voice lessons, violin lessons and any other tutors whom I deem qualified to teach them.

 

I highly recommend ALEs like CVA to other parents who are looking at alternatives. If you want to control your students' educations without outside influence/assistance, you can. If you need help, they will offer it. The beauty is choice.

I don't know how things work in your state but in the state of CA it's against the law to use sectarian material if you are part of a charter or virtual school, even if you use your own money to buy it. Unfortunately, there are many charter and virtual schools in CA who don't tell their clients this, and (even worse) tell them how to write curriculum requests for sectarian materials so the state won't know they are sectarian and will pay for it. Several local ones have been turned in (no, not by me) and fined so they now are honest with those who use them but there are still many that have illegal practices. My older children used to do karate with several who belonged to some of the worst charter school offenders and it was very interesting to hear what was going on from the mothers when it all went down, very eye opening indeed.

 

I will not take state funds because they come with strings, with which I want NO part. In my state it's all about money and power, and when people leave independent homeschooling for state programs the state gets more of both.

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I don't know how things work in your state but in the state of CA it's against the law to use sectarian material if you are part of a charter or virtual school, even if you use your own money to buy it.

 

It is this way in Washington as well. You can use sectarian material, but it can't be for academic subjects. For example, using a Christian resource for math would not be legal.

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It is this way in Washington as well. You can use sectarian material, but it can't be for academic subjects. For example, using a Christian resource for math would not be legal.

 

That is not correct.

 

Legal? Against the law? Those are strong terms. The state edu-police will not come after us if we use Christian materials. Of course they won't be involved in the Bible or religious education. That would be just silly.

 

Are you both speaking from experience?

 

I chose our curriculum before I found CVA and haven't had a problem with ANY of our materials. I use Christian publishers in some subjects. I purchased everything before I found CVA. They have not bought my materials.

 

Cheryl, I disagree with your assumption regarding state funds -- which happens to be your funds, my funds...you get the idea.

 

CVA has not dictated what we are learning. All my materials are listed below in my siggy. CVA is clearly aware of all the materials we are using for the subjects that I am reporting (math, science, history, language arts, fine arts, PE, foreign language).

ETA: I deleted all mention of non-secular titles in my CVA paperwork. I had plenty of secular materials already listed so nothing will change in terms of what I am teaching. My blog is linked in my CVA paper-work.

 

Potters School is overtly Christian and I am reporting it with no problem whatsoever from CVA.

ETA: In dd's Potters School English class, she uses secular materials, but it is run by Christian people. If that is a point of contention with CVA/the state powers-that-be, etc, then I would gladly reduce funding for that subject.

 

CVA pays for Classical Conversations, which is Christian-based. I have friends in CC who get reimbursed.

ETA: Some people say CC isn't Christian 'enough' so it may not be considered 'Christian-based' according to certain individuals.

 

I will be reimbursed for all the entry fees for tours/exhibits for our DC/Gettysburg/Philly/Boston trip in April for all but ds (in private school). I get reimbursed for tons of awesome classes.

 

Again, homeschooling is about choice, right? :)

 

 

----------

Here is a sample of my weekly report to CVA this morning. The question for the week was: What have you learned in social studies? We use Classical Conversations & Potters School for history.

 

Anna: I am studying Thomas Jefferson and reading a book by that name. In history, we continue to learn about the American Revolution & the three branches of government, checks & balances, state vs. federal powers. I discussed the election this week with my family. Our family friend, Jaime Herrera, won. She is now a member of the House Of Representatives in WA DC.

 

Abi: In history, we are studying the explorers. This is my memory sentence: Circa 1500s, Dias rounded the Cape Of Good Hope, Amerigo Vespucci sailed to the Americas, Balboa crossed into Central America to the Pacific, Magellan's crew sailed around the globe, and Coronado explored the American Southwest.

Aly: I like learning about the explorers. I can sing this: Circa 1500s, Dias rounded the Cape Of Good Hope, Amerigo Vespucci sailed to the Americas, Balboa crossed into Central America to the Pacific, Magellan's crew sailed around the globe, and Coronado explored the American Southwest.

------------------

 

If a weekly check-in will enable me to get expensive classes reimbur$ed, I'll play the game. :)

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
That is not correct.

 

Legal? Against the law? Those are strong terms. The state edu-police will not come after us if we use Christian materials. Of course they won't be involved in the Bible or religious education. That would be just silly.

 

Are you both speaking from experience?

 

I chose our curriculum before I found CVA and haven't had a problem with ANY of our materials. I use Christian publishers in some subjects. I purchased everything before I found CVA. They have not bought my materials.

 

Cheryl, I disagree with your assumption regarding state funds -- which happens to be your funds, my funds...you get the idea.

 

CVA has not dictated what we are learning. All my materials are listed below in my siggy. CVA is clearly aware of all the materials we are using for the subjects that I am reporting (math, science, history, language arts, fine arts, PE, foreign language).

 

Potters School is overtly Christian and I am reporting it with no problem whatsoever from CVA.

 

CVA pays for Classical Conversations, which is Christian-based. I have friends in CC who get get reimbursed.

 

I will be reimbursed for all the entry fees for tours/exhibits for our DC/Gettysburg/Philly/Boston trip in April for all but ds (in private school). I get reimbursed for tons of awesome classes.

 

Again, homeschooling is about choice, right? :)

 

 

----------

Here is a sample of my weekly report to CVA this morning. The question for the week was: What have you learned in social studies? We use Classical Conversations & Potters School for history.

 

Anna: I am studying Thomas Jefferson and reading a book by that name. In history, we continue to learn about the American Revolution & the three branches of government, checks & balances, state vs. federal powers. I discussed the election this week with my family. Our family friend, Jaime Herrera, won. She is now a member of the House Of Representatives in WA DC.

 

Abi: In history, we are studying the explorers. This is my memory sentence: Circa 1500s, Dias rounded the Cape Of Good Hope, Amerigo Vespucci sailed to the Americas, Balboa crossed into Central America to the Pacific, Magellan's crew sailed around the globe, and Coronado explored the American Southwest.

Aly: I like learning about the explorers. I can sing this: Circa 1500s, Dias rounded the Cape Of Good Hope, Amerigo Vespucci sailed to the Americas, Balboa crossed into Central America to the Pacific, Magellan's crew sailed around the globe, and Coronado explored the American Southwest.

------------------

 

If a weekly check-in will enable me to get expensive classes reimbur$ed, I'll play the game. :)

I don't know about your state but it is indeed illegal to buy sectarian materials with state money or use sectarian materials purchased with your own money if you belong to a charter school in CA because you are part of the public school system and all instruction must be non-sectarian. It is in the education code. In CA state money comes with very serious strings attached. I am not making any assumptions about your state, just telling you what is true in CA.

 

ETA that I knew people who were being reimbursed for Christian curricula with state money and others that were told they could use any Christian curricula they wanted as long as they paid for it themselves but that doesn't mean it was legal. It was illegal, which is why their charter schools were fined and now tell their clients that they can't use Christian materials (or other sectarian materials) at all. Unfortunately, there are still many charter schools in the state who continue to operate illegally and will continue to do so until they are caught and fined, and/or loose their charters.

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Are you both speaking from experience?

 

 

 

I have been involved (to the point of helping to set policy) with a parent partnership program in Washington state for the past 8 years. Our program is considered to be a model for what the state wants in its ALE programs. Families enrolled in our program may use state funds to purchase very specific resources. Families are not allowed to use unapproved materials for any subjects that are "counted," even if they purchase them themselves. If they want to use unapproved materials, they must enroll part time. And it's not just sectarian materials--Singapore math isn't approved either. Because I refuse to use district approved math resources, my children have never been full time students with our program.

 

While no one is going to come into your home and arrest you if you use unapproved materials, doing so will undermine the trust that these programs place in parents and chips away at the credibility of these programs with the state. There was a big dust up during a recent legislative session where they were talking about eliminating ALE programs completely. One of the reasons was that they felt that state funds were being misappropriated by ALE programs that hand out money for all things deemed "educational" by the parents. I believe several programs shut down as a result.

 

The other issue that the state has been having with some ALE programs is that there is little or no "face time" with the students. Parents take the money, buy the resources or pay for the horseback riding lessons, and the kids are never seen by the teachers in the program. Students are supposed to have contact, preferably face-to-face contact, with a teacher in the program on a weekly basis, but apparently this wasn't happening everywhere.

 

If CVA is paying for sectarian courses and allowing you to use sectarian materials, my understanding is that they are doing so in violation of state regulations. If the state finds out about it, the school will likely be investigated and possibly shut down. I'm not making this up.

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We're one of those families in CA that uses a public charter (and I even know several other old-timers on this board). We started registering independantly, but when we moved to San Diego from Los Angeles last year decided to try a charter.

 

It has worked out great for us. I haven't changed a thing in what we are doing. Admittedly, we use secular curricula. We are a family of faith, but we do separate bible study and devotion time. I pay for those books, and they aren't covered by any subject area that the state cares about.

 

The best part has been the organized field trips and supplemental classes (art, PE, and Spanish). I don't feel any less like a homeschooler, even though my current set of books was paid for by the school district. Our once a month "check in" when we turn in a calendar with listed activities just is not that invasive, and probably is enough to prevent educational neglect if that were an issue in some families.

 

However, I don't have any ethical or philosophical issues with public education as such, just with the way it is implemented. If "teach your kids yourself and we'll support that with funding" becomes the norm for public school, that's OK by me. I'm happy to have my government provide services. I can tell you from time I spent as a missionary in Kazakhstan that living in a country with no government regulations (or services) isn't really all that great. I like having the freedom to homeschool as I like, and the public charter hasn't impinged on our experience at all.

 

That said, when my boys get into high school and the requirements start to get more specific, we'll probably go back to doing it on our own. Acceleration issues are challenging in any setting. I think we'll most likely go the community college route. Which is also public school.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
We're one of those families in CA that uses a public charter (and I even know several other old-timers on this board). We started registering independantly, but when we moved to San Diego from Los Angeles last year decided to try a charter.

 

It has worked out great for us. I haven't changed a thing in what we are doing. Admittedly, we use secular curricula. We are a family of faith, but we do separate bible study and devotion time. I pay for those books, and they aren't covered by any subject area that the state cares about.

 

The best part has been the organized field trips and supplemental classes (art, PE, and Spanish). I don't feel any less like a homeschooler, even though my current set of books was paid for by the school district. Our once a month "check in" when we turn in a calendar with listed activities just is not that invasive, and probably is enough to prevent educational neglect if that were an issue in some families.

 

However, I don't have any ethical or philosophical issues with public education as such, just with the way it is implemented. If "teach your kids yourself and we'll support that with funding" becomes the norm for public school, that's OK by me. I'm happy to have my government provide services. I can tell you from time I spent as a missionary in Kazakhstan that living in a country with no government regulations (or services) isn't really all that great. I like having the freedom to homeschool as I like, and the public charter hasn't impinged on our experience at all.

 

That said, when my boys get into high school and the requirements start to get more specific, we'll probably go back to doing it on our own. Acceleration issues are challenging in any setting. I think we'll most likely go the community college route. Which is also public school.

Those who are neglecting their children's education aren't going to voluntarily sign up for such services. Forcing all homeschoolers to join such programs will be a big problem for those who use sectarian materials (or other materials not approved by the state), and people who are neglecting their children's education would most likely not comply anyway.

 

ETA that we will not be using any public services, including community college. I'd much rather have my freedom to use the materials *I* want to use (much of which would be illegal to use in a charter program) than take government money. That is our choice and I'd like to keep it that way.

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I'm happy for everyone to have choices... it's just worked out well for us that the public homeschool option exists.

 

Can I ask a question I've never even thought about before... would you thus not use any public university? I went to a private school myself, but here in California it seems like places like UCLA, Berkely, etc are some of the best schools in the state.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I'm happy for everyone to have choices... it's just worked out well for us that the public homeschool option exists.

 

Can I ask a question I've never even thought about before... would you thus not use any public university? I went to a private school myself, but here in California it seems like places like UCLA, Berkely, etc are some of the best schools in the state.

Perhaps, but even if that is true they are some of the best secular schools in the state.

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I

If CVA is paying for sectarian courses and allowing you to use sectarian materials, my understanding is that they are doing so in violation of state regulations. If the state finds out about it, the school will likely be investigated and possibly shut down. I'm not making this up.

 

CVA isn't 'paying' for any of my sectarian materials. I bought all our materials and my funded CBIs are non-sectarian.

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CVA isn't 'paying' for any of my sectarian materials. I bought all our materials and my funded CBIs are non-sectarian.

 

I apologize. I misunderstood your previous post. I was referring to this statement:

 

CVA pays for Classical Conversations, which is Christian-based. I have friends in CC who get get reimbursed.

 

 

 

Now that I'm rereading it, I understand it to mean that you know of *others* who are having Classical Conversations reimbursed by CVA. However, my point is the same: If CVA is paying for sectarian courses and is allowing you to use sectarian materials, they are in violation of state regulations.

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I apologize. I misunderstood your previous post. I was referring to this statement:

 

 

 

Now that I'm rereading it, I understand it to mean that you know of *others* who are having Classical Conversations reimbursed by CVA. However, my point is the same: If CVA is paying for sectarian courses and is allowing you to use sectarian materials, they are in violation of state regulations.

 

I edited my prior post regarding CC. Some folks say it isn't 'Christian' enough. Either way, I personally am not reimbursed for anything 'religious'. I will be checking with my AT tomorrow about these topics. My 'student learning plan' does not mention any publishers that are Christian, but it does mention Singapore. My AT didn't make any comment on that.

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The decline in the quality of home education and the existence of virtual schools (Beth mentioned CVA, someone else mentioned K12) are two separate issues.

 

1. The decline in quality of home education: it is unfortunate that so many abuse the freedom homeschoolers have. I'm not sure what the solution would be though--more gov't involvement? tougher laws? stricter standards on what makes someone a "homeschooler"? My personal belief is that having a multitude of options available will allow people to educate their children in whatever way is best for them. Some people will be crappy parents, regardless. Maybe some of these parents would benefit from being able to *voluntarily* join a program that provides some oversight.

 

2. The existence of virtual public schools: I have yet to hear/read a compelling argument for why this undermines independent homeschooling (and I have done quite a bit of reading on this issue). Private schools do not undermine public schools and neither undermines homeschooling...I fail to see how public schools at home are any different. The VA I belong to has been around for 14 years and many more have cropped up in that time. The laws for independent homeschoolers have not changed during that time at all. As far as I know, there is no current threat to the freedom of independent homeschooling in WA. Virtual schools are under constant attack, though (by independent homeschoolers).

 

I guess my thought is that if you (general) are concerned about losing your freedom to independently homeschool your kids, then look for the weaknesses in homeschoolers, don't go attacking people who use other methods. Do what you can to encourage homeschoolers who might be struggling. Challenge people who are using the term "homeschooler" as a euphemism for "slacker". Encourage your co-op to up the standards. Start a support group. Take opportunities to compete in contests, spelling bees, etc. as a homeschooler to improve the reputation. Blaming other people for the failure in your own movement rarely brings about any positive results.

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I edited my prior post regarding CC. Some folks say it isn't 'Christian' enough. Either way, I personally am not reimbursed for anything 'religious'. I will be checking with my AT tomorrow about these topics. My 'student learning plan' does not mention any publishers that are Christian, but it does mention Singapore. My AT didn't make any comment on that.

 

It is very likely that the teacher you're dealing with doesn't know much about the various programs. I am routinely amazed at how little the teachers in our program know about what I consider to be fairly standard resources used by homeschoolers. As for Singapore, that restriction may be peculiar to our district.

 

If your student learning plan doesn't mention Christian publishers, that's great. But in your previous post you seemed to indicate that you use Christian publishers and Christian courses and that CVA is perfectly happy with that.

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It is very likely that the teacher you're dealing with doesn't know much about the various programs. I am routinely amazed at how little the teachers in our program know about what I consider to be fairly standard resources used by homeschoolers. As for Singapore, that restriction may be peculiar to our district.

 

If your student learning plan doesn't mention Christian publishers, that's great. But in your previous post you seemed to indicate that you use Christian publishers and Christian courses and that CVA is perfectly happy with that.

 

My AT is keenly aware of my preferences. She looks at my blog a couple times/week and reads my lengthy weekly reports.

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Public school masquerading as homeschool...:rant: :banghead: :cursing:

 

It's been a big problem in California for many years, and it's creeping into other states at a pathetically fast rate.

 

Yep. Many homeschoolers I meet tell me they're doing charter/ps school at home and invariably ask if I'm "privately schooling".

 

sigh

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My AT is keenly aware of my preferences. She looks at my blog a couple times/week and reads my lengthy weekly reports.

 

I'm not sure why you seem so defensive. If Christian resources aren't mentioned on your WSLP then there isn't a problem, even if you are using them (as long as you're also using what's mentioned). But this isn't what you seemed to be indicating in your previous posts.

 

CVA is a school district. Yes, I am a homeschooler reimbursed with state funds. From my taxes. I use my own materials & tutors -- some faith-based. CVA dictates nothing. I report what we do. Very simple.

 

Dd takes 3 classes from Potters School

 

I use Christian publishers in some subjects.

 

CVA has not dictated what we are learning. All my materials are listed below in my siggy. CVA is clearly aware of all the materials we are using for the subjects that I am reporting (math, science, history, language arts, fine arts, PE, foreign language).

 

Potters School is overtly Christian and I am reporting it with no problem whatsoever from CVA.

ETA: In dd's Potters School English class, she uses secular materials, but it is run by Christian people. If that is a point of contention with CVA/the state powers-that-be, etc, then I would gladly reduce funding for that subject.

 

CVA pays for Classical Conversations, which is Christian-based. I have friends in CC who get reimbursed.

ETA: Some people say CC isn't Christian 'enough' so it may not be considered 'Christian-based' according to certain individuals.

 

Here is a sample of my weekly report to CVA this morning. The question for the week was: What have you learned in social studies? We use Classical Conversations & Potters School for history.

 

 

This isn't just about the funds you get. I don't use any money from our ALE program but the school itself is receiving funds for my children. So because I choose to use Singapore math, the *school* gets less money. If the school overlooks the use of Christian resources, they get more money from the state, regardless of whether you've used any funds from them to purchase anything. But if the state finds out, at a minimum the school will have some explaining to do.

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It seems to me that now that homeschooling is more mainstream, more people are going to try and attach themselves to the label. But from my experience many of the parents who are only doing mediocre or poorly at the job, per the public school standards, really want what is best for their kids. They don't know better.

 

It seems that what is needed is more parental education, not guidelines. The homeschool workshops are definitely helpful, as are the books written by SWB and others.

 

8FillTheHeart, I read of the work you're doing helping parents. That will help tremendously. Of course, this board is tremendously helpful.

 

I simply don't know of any other ways to help educate parents other than one to one interaction.

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I'm not sure why you seem so defensive. If Christian resources aren't mentioned on your WSLP then there isn't a problem, even if you are using them (as long as you're also using what's mentioned). But this isn't what you seemed to be indicating in your previous posts.

 

 

I just looked at my slps. My slps include Potters School, CC, Veritas Press, Bob Jones Physical Science and Singapore. I will be adding Apologia for science next year (friends of mine note Apologia on their slps now -- and their labs are funded, but not the text). I include Shurley grammar also, but it is not overtly Christian (or is it?). I heard IEW is considered 'Christian' now and we use the SWI-A also, and it is noted on dd7's slp. I list nearly all the materials on my link below, excluding materials for Bible, of course. My AT & the principal at my campus approved my slps, as well as my Sept & Oct reports. Links to my blog are noted in my monthly reports. It is no secret what I am teaching.

 

ETA: I deleted all reference to Christian publishers in my CVA paperwork. I will report only on the secular materials we are using.

 

I want others to know that CVA is an option -- and that big brother isn't going to come knocking on your door. You can teach whatever you like as the homeschooling parent.

 

Kai, Please forgive me if I sound defensive. That is not my intention. I'm hoping to clarify my experiences -- and shed light on a controversial subject (one that tends to polarize homeschool parents).

 

Your experience appears to be different than mine with CVA. I used a brick & mortar ALE similar to what you are using now. My dd took Spanish 1, WA State History & 7-8 Writing last year through our local Vancouver Home Connection. The staff wanted me to include our other subjects in my reporting so they could receive funding for my student. I declined because I wasn't receiving any benefit. This year, I include ALL our core subjects in my reporting because I am the one who will receive (and is already receiving) generous compensation for some fabulous (and expensive) outside enrichment classes.

 

I'm curious why you are reporting on math when you don't receive any benefit.

 

CVA's mantra is: "We will give you what it takes to educate your student."

 

I don't mind reporting all the core subjects. I love the fact that we are financially compensated and a small portion of our tax dollars are coming back in my bank account. Yes, there are hoops to jump through, but they are minimal, from my experience. The end result is the same whether or not we use CVA. I would still have my kids in these awesome outside courses -- but I wouldn't be reimbursed. CVA doesn't dictate what we learn. If that were the case, we would not be involved.

 

I will say, we are very new to CVA. I just registered in August. My tone could be completely different later, but for now I am pleased. Obviously others are also, as CVA is growing by hundreds yearly. It's a win-win for a lot of folks.

 

I am providing the necessary documentation for my dd to receive high school credit on her CVA transcript for high school Spanish 2 and Alg 1 this year as an 8th grader. Dh & I want an official diploma for our kids - not a home-made diploma off the home computer typed up by mom. That's just us. It looks like dd might be going to private high school with ds next year, so it could potentially be a non-issue.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
This isn't just about the funds you get. I don't use any money from our ALE program but the school itself is receiving funds for my children. So because I choose to use Singapore math, the *school* gets less money. If the school overlooks the use of Christian resources, they get more money from the state, regardless of whether you've used any funds from them to purchase anything. But if the state finds out, at a minimum the school will have some explaining to do.

This is one of the issues I've seen locally (in CA). The charters who were caught got into big trouble and changed how they operated. Most of the parents who were using sectarian materials knew nothing about the law and had no idea they weren't in compliance with the law because those they worked with at the charter school told they they could use sectarian materials (some even coached them on how to fill out curriculum requests so that the state would pay for sectarian materials), either because they too were ignorant of the law or because they knew it was illegal but wanted the money from the state. Someone within the charters was aware of the law and choosing not to follow it but my guess is that not all the charter employees knew the law and were just doing what they were told. I would like to think that anyway.

 

ETA that I still know Christians who use charters and use sectarian materials. I've gently told them that it's not allowed by state law but they either say it can't be because their contact at the charter said it was okay or they do it anyway because they don't agree with the law (such a good testimony to their children, sigh).

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Oops, once again I was unclear. What I meant to ask was, would you personally never send your children to a public university, even a prestigious one?

 

In all the talk about people pulling thier children from public schools, I never understood that those same people would also not use public universitites, but I guess that makes sense. If you want a truly religious education, then a religious university would be the way to go.

 

I'm not dissing religious education--I have a seminary M. Div. I just am curious about the opposition to public universities.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Oops, once again I was unclear. What I meant to ask was, would you personally never send your children to a public university, even a prestigious one?

 

In all the talk about people pulling thier children from public schools, I never understood that those same people would also not use public universitites, but I guess that makes sense. If you want a truly religious education, then a religious university would be the way to go.

 

I'm not dissing religious education--I have a seminary M. Div. I just am curious about the opposition to public universities.

I didn't think you were dissing religious education:001_smile: Sorry, I thought you were asking why I wouldn't send my children to a prestigious public school, not asking whether I would. To expand on my answer a little, Worldview is very important to us and I don't want my children to attend a college/university whose worldview is opposed to ours. Obviously, since they will be adults, we won't be dictating where they go to college but will offer counsel when asked, and at this point they share our opinion. Well, the ones in high school do, the others are too young to have an opinion (the next oldest is 7).

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I'm curious why you are reporting on math when you don't receive any benefit.

 

Our program offers classes and my children participate in those classes for mainly social reasons. For many years we accessed the program under the Basic Education Law, which allows homeschoolers to participate in any public school program. The school was only compensated for the time my children attended classes.

 

A few years ago the program was hurting for funding and the bulk of their money comes from students that are enrolled ALE (as full time, or close to full time public school students). To help them out, because the community the program provides is so important to our family, I enrolled both kids as full time as I could, whatever the school deemed full time minus math time. Since I don't want to use public funds to pay for my educational expenses, I don't accept any money to purchase resources. The school gets to keep that money and use it to purchase resources for their classrooms. The school also gets the money for two almost full time students. I report on everything we do, including math, but the school doesn't get funding for the math.

 

CVA's mantra is: "We will give you what it takes to educate your student."

 

If the state were to get wind that their mantra includes funding sectarian choices, CVA would have, at a minimum, some explaining to do.

 

ETA: I'm starting to repeat myself...

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Ooookaaay.... :D

 

I just had a very long chat with my CVA AT. CVA went through an *extensive* audit last school year by the state. K-8 ALEs were on the chopping block and the state was looking to be able to shut it down. The state failed. CVA is doing nothing illegal with public funds. They have advisors who carefully vet any and all curriculum. That is why some "sectarian" material is allowed. The ones they fund are "Christian" without talking about God or religion.

 

If a parent chooses to use CVA to fund music and PE and tutors, they are allowed to do that. And they can use their own funds to purchase the most strictly religioius material they can find. It is totally legal.

 

It is exactly the same as public school parents sending their dc to school and when they come home, telling them, "Evolution is a theory to which we do not prescribe. We believe the Truth as it is spoken in Genesis of God's wonderful hand of Creation." And the parent pulls out whatever materials they are using to supplement their dc's education.

 

In CVA, we use whatever we want to educate our dc. Some is covered by CVA, some is not. Not a big deal. :)

 

In terms of homeschoolers dumbing down and reporting lower scores and not being rigorous, what is the answer to that? People are adamantly opposed to gov't oversight but then want to have oversight over other homeschoolers? Or only allow rigorous homeschoolers the right to homeschool? Freedom for me but not for you? I honestly don't understand.

 

If homeschooling is not subject to tons of gov't oversight and controls, then there are going to be slackers who don't educate their dc. Is this a societal issue? Do we put more controls in place to protect society from uneducated, illiterate fools? Who is protecting society from the uneducated, illiterate public school fools? If we don't put those controls in place, then we have to accept that people will use hs'ing as a means to cop out on educating and parenting their dc.

 

I don't want tons of controls on hs'ing. I don't want tons of oversight. I want homeschooling to be a choice. And once the choice is made for a given family, that they then have the freedom to choose how best to do it for their family.

 

Colorado mom has said what I think throughout this thread. Someone else, too, but I can't remember... ::blush::

 

(I inwardly cringe at the idea that the gov't shouldn't be allowed to tell me what to do but other homeschoolers should. It seems to be the opposite of choice when I have to base my choices and decisions on what is best for the homeschool community, the homeschool movement, etc... and not what is best for my own family and dc.)

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The ones they fund are "Christian" without talking about God or religion.

 

 

 

Could you give me an example of what this would be?

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Could you give me an example of what this would be?

 

I have no idea! I don't use them! :D But I see them on the list and that is what the AT and I talked about today! :tongue_smilie:

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Ooookaaay.... :D

 

 

 

In terms of homeschoolers dumbing down and reporting lower scores and not being rigorous, what is the answer to that? People are adamantly opposed to gov't oversight but then want to have oversight over other homeschoolers? Or only allow rigorous homeschoolers the right to homeschool? Freedom for me but not for you? I honestly don't understand.

 

 

Colorado mom has said what I think throughout this thread. Someone else, too, but I can't remember... ::blush::

 

(I inwardly cringe at the idea that the gov't shouldn't be allowed to tell me what to do but other homeschoolers should. It seems to be the opposite of choice when I have base my choices and decisions on what is best for the homeschool community, the homeschool movement, etc... and not what is best for my own family and dc.)

 

I think my point is being misconstrued. It is hard to explain it in a brief post while typing while nursing and kids constantly interrupting......but here goes.

 

Over the last 10 yrs (thinking back here and trying to figure out when I really started noticing it......not sure exactly), more and more people professing to homeschool actually do not homeschool as much as co-op school. This is an issue with me. Whether or not it bothers other homeschoolers.......guess I just really don't care. ;)

 

From here out, I am referring to the typical co-op schooler that I encounter. They take their kids and drop them off at co-op (or teach a class at the co-op). They don't investigate the curriculum being used. The classes are being taught by moms that get to use the co-op classes for free b/c they are teaching a class. (These moms are not professionals in the areas. Some will attest to having to learn the material in order to teach it. Some feel overwhelmed by the subjects they teach.)

 

Why do I have an issue with this? Several reasons.

 

First, homeschooling laws do not protect this form of education. It is not homeschooling b/c the parent is not the teacher. I am not well versed in homeschooling laws across the country, but the laws I am aware of mention parent or guardian as teacher.

 

Second, the majority of the moms teaching the co-ops are not like the ones Kimber describes. They aren't professionals nor are they well trained in the classes they teach. As a homeschooler, I don't have a problem with that in my home and with my children. I do have a problem with that when it is essentially teaching like a school except under the guise of homeschooling.

 

Some of the co-ops are HUGE (100s of kids). The result is that moms often end up with a distorted view of what is appropriate grade level work. People complain and work loads are reduced for the peace of the co-op. This is not a small network of experienced individuals acting as tutors in specialized subjects to a small group of kids.

 

Small tutor groups......go for it. That is no different than any other form of tutoring. "Farming out" classes to co-ops and leaving content subjects (not extracurricular) under outsider's tutelage is not homeschooling; it is co-oping. (and yes, that is exactly what I have witnessed in 2 states 100s of miles apart, so this is not an isolated situation)

 

What do you call a classroom of unrelated kids all learning the same subject matter, turning in homework to that teacher for a grade, receiving their grade for that subject from that class.......sounds like a school to me.

 

I see that as threatening my homeschooling freedoms. What to do about it? I have NO idea. But, if legislatures begin to become aware of just how many co-ops are out there providing full subject curricula being taught by uncertified teachers or operating outside of private school laws, I think the laws will be written to affect all homeschoolers, not just the ones that are co-opers.

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As a homeschooler, I don't have a problem with that in my home and with my children. I do have a problem with that when it is essentially teaching like a school except under the guise of homeschooling.

 

I worry about this, too. It's become huge for high schoolers in the Twin Cities.

 

I don't worry about the classes not being good enough. I think most of the classes I've seen are very good.

 

I just worry that it's not really homeschooling.

 

For those who really aren't familiar with this, here are three of the big co-ops I know about just around us:

http://homepage.mac.com/southheights/index.htm

http://www.chatclasses.com/

http://www.yeahacademy.net/index2.htm

 

The quote about 100s of kids is not an exaggeration. These groups sometimes have proms and yearbooks.

 

I have nothing against co-ops but most of the "family style" co-ops that we enjoyed in younger years no longer serve older kids because all of them leave for these academic programs. My son was the only 6th grader who stayed in the family style co-op we loved. I just wanted a little phy ed, some public speaking experiences, and some family style fun as a break in our week, and I wanted to be there.

 

Julie

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My post wasn't directed at your opinion. (8filltheheart) :) I have 0 experience with co-ops or folks who use them.

 

I'm trying to figure out how co-ops would "look" in my state. It is illegal to homeschool any dc other than your own. So the only way I can see it happening is if it is more of a social thing done once a week or something, not dc dropped off daily for hours. ::think:: But I actually have NO idea.

 

I must have mentally put the wrongs posts together in my head. I thought there was a more general discussion of people being slackers and hs'ing and not providing a rigourous enough education. I didn't know it was all related to co-ops. ::bag over head::

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Her warning was basically that as this grows in popularity home schooling numbers will decline while psers at home increases, giving those opposed to home schooling a foot hold for more regulation and/or required curriculum.

 

Going back to the OP's initial concern: Will the homeschool movement be negatively affected by ps'ers at home?

 

The friends of mine who use CVA are top-notch, classically-inclined, rigorous homeschool families. (Although, I cannot say that about the folks I met at the local ALE in Vancouver who take core classes.) The CVA'ers I know will be raising the bar for homeschooling, not lowering it. State testing is required (we will use the CAT-5), but most homeschoolers nation-wide do that anyway, per state requirements.

 

I hope folks reading this are not frightened off or fearful they are not a 'true' homeschooler if they use an ALE or a VA. It is nothing to be ashamed of. You can come out of the closet.:)

 

Imho, the end result is what matters (regardless of the educational path you choose)... raising a well-thought, well-read, well-spoken, well-trained student who can thrive in this competitive world.

 

As far as co-ops go, the one I know of locally is fantastic. Dd attends a pseudo co-op physical science class taught by an accredited professional teacher. Even if it was just edu-tainment science, that would be fine if that's what parents wanted. It's not what I want, but I'm not judging what other parents choose. It's their right.

 

If a co-op does not meet some arbitrary academic standard set by another homeschooler, I still don't see how it is my business. I honestly can't imagine how the lamest, dumbed-down co-op could potentially affect my homeschool freedoms.

 

If some folks choose co-ops, so be it. If some choose ALE's, great. If some want to unschool, super. I love that we have the freedom to pursue education via numerous methodologies.

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Okay, I've learned something new. I did not know that co-ops such as these existed. I had no idea. The first, you listed, I'd consider if I lived in the area, since they meet only one day a week. I don't really want anything more than that.

 

The other two, according to the schedules, meet two or more times per week. They appear to be like minature charter schools. I could see how this could cause some problems legally if they are deemed to be operating as such in a state that doesn't allow anyone but the parent to teach the student.

 

However, outside of a legal issue, I don't have a problem with them. I do find it sad when children don't get the education that they deserve. It's bad for the student and bad for homeschooling and bad for society as a whole.

 

But whether or not it hurts homeschoolers collectively? I don't know. I could see how it might, if the colleges view us all the same, although they shouldn't. I'll have to think about it.

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Okay, I've learned something new. I did not know that co-ops such as these existed. I had no idea. The first, you listed, I'd consider if I lived in the area, since they meet only one day a week. I don't really want anything more than that.

 

The other two, according to the schedules, meet two or more times per week.

 

I'm pretty sure all classes meet once per week, and then the student is assigned homework to do for the rest of the week. The co-ops that meet on two days are just offering more classes to choose from.

 

It still feels like a school to me because the co-op is teaching and assigning everything for the course. Some kids do stay all day and take all their classes there, then go home and do all their homework for the rest of the week, although others just take a course or two.

 

Julie

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I'm pretty sure all classes meet once per week, and then the student is assigned homework to do for the rest of the week. The co-ops that meet on two days are just offering more classes to choose from.

 

Then I can't see anything wrong with it. Given my experience with co-ops, the homework, more often than not, will probably be the lesson plans that come with the curriculum. That's no different than doing Sonlight or Apologia at home.

 

I still don't see how a child can receive enough instruction in one hour of class time per week to defend the argument that the parent is no longer involved and the 1 hour per week teacher is the primary teacher.

 

When parent's believe this, and excuse themselves from their children's education, they're making a mistake.

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So in the co-op situation mentioned, what would you like to see happen? No more co-ops? Someone regulating the co-ops to make sure parents aren't misusing them? We have the right to assemble. I can choose to get together with other homeschoolers and I can choose to leave my kids in the care of another adult for a few hours. Should homeschoolers be accountable for lessons/tutors we take our kids to? What about babysitters? Who should we be accountable to?

 

I'm confused. I see people here complaining about the possibility of having their freedom taken away but in the same breath complaining about others that use the same freedom to educate their kids differently (not as well, etc.). Isn't that the whole point of freedom? That I get to choose what's best for my own kids without someone interfering?

 

It seems like the bottom line is that many people are concerned that the irresponsibility of some will threaten the rights of many. I think that's why we need to stay politically aware and deal with the people who CAN take away our rights. I (as a virtual schooler) can't take away anyone's rights.

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When parent's believe this, and excuse themselves from their children's education, they're making a mistake.

 

Maybe that's my worry?

 

I'm confused. I see people here complaining about the possibility of having their freedom taken away but in the same breath complaining about others that use the same freedom to educate their kids differently (not as well, etc.). Isn't that the whole point of freedom? That I get to choose what's best for my own kids without someone interfering?

 

Oh, I don't know, I think this conversation has taken many turns, like any good conversation. And there are a couple of off-shoots so maybe I haven't paid as much attention as I should. I just get an email from one thread or another that I find intriguing and join in on the thinking it through.

 

I do believe in freedom to educate as much or as little as the family decides. I've weighed in on that one :) But I just am not sure about the topic being brought up where you don't teach your own children. I haven't totally thought that one through in my own mind, but something seems a bit like going back to public schooling when I go to these co-ops?

 

Julie

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The quote about 100s of kids is not an exaggeration. These groups sometimes have proms and yearbooks.

 

I have nothing against co-ops but most of the "family style" co-ops that we enjoyed in younger years no longer serve older kids because all of them leave for these academic programs.

Julie - you know that's interesting. There is a group of homeschooling parents I've heard about near me who have morphed into a private school for a shorter number of hours in a day than public school. They have a dedicated building. To me, that IS my objection to coops -- there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not homeschooling. I consider it like a private school. That is not my concept of homeschooling, which is family-based as you mentioned.

 

I also share the common concerns on here that homeschooling not become synonymous with dropping out or an "alternative school" (i.e. a school for near-drop outs).

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