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johnandtinagilbert

s/o home schooling too popular...the future of hsing regulation?

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I imagine this has been discussed before, but I find it a worthy topic and would love to hear your experiences.

 

This post reminded me of a recent meeting I attended where a home school lobbiest spoke to our co-op (which we play and do field trips in, no need or desire for what they academically offer).

 

I have been homeschooling for 19 years. In the beginning, the homeschoolers in our area were above average in goals academically. Now, I am seeing the opposite. In fact, several families let their kids get so far behind that they had to send their kids back to school. Two families sent them to a private school where tutoring was available because the kids were that far behind. It's sad. What started out to be a great movement is quickly disintegrating. Our coops are great "fun" for the younger crowd. (Fine). But nothing with academic rigor for the middle grades on up - when parents might REALLY need it!

 

It is sad, frustrating, sad, and more frustrating.

 

Blessings,

Stephanie

:iagree: and it both scares and frustrates me. I guess frustrate more than scared b/c I think I'll be finished educating by the time the proverbial poop hits the fan and all this fluffy home schooling comes home to roost by way of greater regulation. All the professional teachers I know always say something along the lines of, "I am amazed at all you do. I've never met a child that came from home schooling that got anywhere near the education you give your children." They read my blog and I assure them there are plenty even more rigorous than I, but it makes me sad to hear this, as I see it often and know its true.

 

Back to the new thread....The home school lobbiest warned us of the interjection of K12ish programs being offered for free through the states. Many families take advantage of this, particularly new home schoolers who pull their dc from ps, who lack confidence, know how or simply understanding of the scope of options in home schooling. The programs are free, teach to state standards, offer accreditation so it looks Wonderful and appealing! As a result, they are not classified home schoolers, but public schoolers at home. The curriculum provider mails all the materials to the family, but essentially, the parent is the teacher. All the while, the school district gets paid their regular fee for an enrolled child. Her warning was basically that as this grows in popularity home schooling numbers will decline while psers at home increases, giving those opposed to home schooling a foot hold for more regulation and/or required curriculum.

 

She warned also that you have to be watchful, too, b/c some virtual school, like FLVS will have links on their page for this Free option, so people get confused thinking they're using FLVS (which keeps your hs status), but are instead registering for something else.

 

She added to her warning, the latest fad by colleges to get people to enroll in special programs that change high school status from home to public in order to take college classes for free. This is different from dual enrolling (in some states, like FL) as a dual enrolled student keeps their hs status. She warns that if the swing increases for these grades (10+), it may also limit or reduce options for home schoolers and colleges and/or increase regulation.

These things combined with a more mainstream world of home schooling, where there are therefore increased numbers of people not doing so much school, but more just getting by, concerns me for the future of this grassroots movement we call home schooling.

 

What say you, hive?

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Agree.

 

Tho I still have another solid 18 years, so my concern might be even greater.

 

I get those comments too. Even on my child who I feel is behind in math and science.

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These things combined with a more mainstream world of home schooling, where there are therefore increased numbers of people not doing so much school, but more just getting by, concerns me for the future of this grassroots movement we call home schooling.

 

What say you, hive?

 

Just nodding here. It may help if "Classical Homeschooling" is a better description for us then just "homeschooling". I think I'll try that.

 

But definitely, "homeschooling" as a catch-all phrase is being slandered by those that don't home educate - it is thus harmful for the reputation of the movement. I think efforts to "own the term" have fallen short and "homeschooling" has been coined as the catch-all term for "not public schooling."

 

Sad, but true.

Lisaj

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Just nodding here. It may help if "Classical Homeschooling" is a better description for us then just "homeschooling". I think I'll try that.

 

But definitely, "homeschooling" as a catch-all phrase is being slandered by those that don't home educate - it is thus harmful for the reputation of the movement. I think efforts to "own the term" have fallen short and "homeschooling" has been coined as the catch-all term for "not public schooling."

 

Sad, but true.

Lisaj

I just went to FaceBook and changed my info to Classically Home Schooling! Good point!

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I saw this article yesterday, and was trying to figure out where to post it. If homeschooling has become popular enough that parents are using it as a "dummy school" for kids who want to drop out, I'd say that's a big problem.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I imagine this has been discussed before, but I find it a worthy topic and would love to hear your experiences.

 

This post reminded me of a recent meeting I attended where a home school lobbiest spoke to our co-op (which we play and do field trips in, no need or desire for what they academically offer).

and it both scares and frustrates me. I guess frustrate more than scared b/c I think I'll be finished educating by the time the proverbial poop hits the fan and all this fluffy home schooling comes home to roost by way of greater regulation. All the professional teachers I know always say something along the lines of, "I am amazed at all you do. I've never met a child that came from home schooling that got anywhere near the education you give your children." They read my blog and I assure them there are plenty even more rigorous than I, but it makes me sad to hear this, as I see it often and know its true.

 

 

Back to the new thread....The home school lobbiest warned us of the interjection of K12ish programs being offered for free through the states. Many families take advantage of this, particularly new home schoolers who pull their dc from ps, who lack confidence, know how or simply understanding of the scope of options in home schooling. The programs are free, teach to state standards, offer accreditation so it looks Wonderful and appealing! As a result, they are not classified home schoolers, but public schoolers at home. The curriculum provider mails all the materials to the family, but essentially, the parent is the teacher. All the while, the school district gets paid their regular fee for an enrolled child. Her warning was basically that as this grows in popularity home schooling numbers will decline while psers at home increases, giving those opposed to home schooling a foot hold for more regulation and/or required curriculum.

 

She warned also that you have to be watchful, too, b/c some virtual school, like FLVS will have links on their page for this Free option, so people get confused thinking they're using FLVS (which keeps your hs status), but are instead registering for something else.

 

She added to her warning, the latest fad by colleges to get people to enroll in special programs that change high school status from home to public in order to take college classes for free. This is different from dual enrolling (in some states, like FL) as a dual enrolled student keeps their hs status. She warns that if the swing increases for these grades (10+), it may also limit or reduce options for home schoolers and colleges and/or increase regulation.

These things combined with a more mainstream world of home schooling, where there are therefore increased numbers of people not doing so much school, but more just getting by, concerns me for the future of this grassroots movement we call home schooling.

 

What say you, hive?

:iagree:

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These things combined with a more mainstream world of home schooling, where there are therefore increased numbers of people not doing so much school, but more just getting by, concerns me for the future of this grassroots movement we call home schooling.

 

What say you, hive?

 

:iagree: -- it's very scary & frustrating.

 

I heard a similar presentation a few years ago...along with a video entitled "The Trojan Horse". (or something like that) Then, in the afternoon session, a gentlemen spoke on "Convention on the Rights of the Child" and how that could impact our rights as homeschoolers. (trying not to hijack here...)

 

My brain just went blank...:glare: I'll be back when I remember what I was going to say next...:tongue_smilie:

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I definitely agree that some folks are using the hs name to drop out. We're already seeing the push for more regulation--been seeing it for a number of years. I recall a visit with the school supe years ago that swung from being told "the ps parents have a right to be upset when their boy's place on the football team is taken from a "normal" student" to be given to a hser (the kid was an AMAZING QB who went on to play in college), to the supe pretending that I didn't know the name of the child that he claimed was, " a year behind in school" when she reentered the system. I pointed out that I DID know who we were talking about and that she was THREE years behind when they pulled her. The supe's stance was that "we need to know just WHAT these parents are DOING!"

 

We had a mom cave and take her curr in to be "inspected" and we're STILL dealing with the fallout from that, many years later. The district keeps saying, "Why won't you let us see your materials? Mary H. did! What are you trying to hide?" Same way with turning in ITBS scores. ONE family gives the entire set of subscores and we hear about the ones that only give what it requred. I BEG new hsers in our district to not give more info than required by law. It has come back to bite us many times...

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I saw this article yesterday, and was trying to figure out where to post it. If homeschooling has become popular enough that parents are using it as a "dummy school" for kids who want to drop out, I'd say that's a big problem.

 

 

Very frightening (horrific title) article. I am not really against testing for homeschool students. The public schools are required to test their students in order to gain funding, so it makes sense. However if homeschoolers are required to test then they should get the same test related benefits as the schools do. If the children in a homeschool perform well on a state required test then the homeschool should receive funding, or at the very least a tax break.

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Here in NZ we were inspected by ERO (Educational Review Office) every three years just like schools.

 

The law states we must teach 'at least as regularly and as well as public schools'.

 

Last year they decided to drop the inspections because we all pass with flying colours and it is a waste of time and money. The few who don't are normally reported by concerned neighbours etc and never came through the regular review anyway.

 

We still have to register and in doing so state what we intend to do and what curriculum we intend to use (when we are stating out at any rate) and this is quite a process that cuts some hopeless people out as they cannot be bothered jumping through the hoops.

 

But i just thought I would mention that our government reviewers think we

homeschoolers are so great they don't want to check on us anymore!

 

Willow.

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:iagree: -- it's very scary & frustrating.

 

I heard a similar presentation a few years ago...along with a video entitled "The Trojan Horse". (or something like that) Then, in the afternoon session, a gentlemen spoke on "Convention on the Rights of the Child" and how that could impact our rights as homeschoolers. (trying not to hijack here...)

 

My brain just went blank...:glare: I'll be back when I remember what I was going to say next...:tongue_smilie:

This is actually quite scary. If the US adopts certain UN regulations, our home schooling will certainly be jeopardized. The Rights of a Child is something to pay close attention to as home schoolers. The thing my dh finds out about how many global initiatives will affect our daily lives is very frightening. I'd love for you to share anything you know.

 

I saw this article yesterday, and was trying to figure out where to post it. If homeschooling has become popular enough that parents are using it as a "dummy school" for kids who want to drop out, I'd say that's a big problem.
I Know this is true. I actually have witnessed it twice in the past couple of years. I've also seen parents basically "punish" the schools by removing their dc for a semester, then reenrolling them in other schools. In the interim their dc basically non-school for several months.

 

Here in NZ we were inspected by ERO (Educational Review Office) every three years just like schools.

 

The law states we must teach 'at least as regularly and as well as public schools'.

 

Last year they decided to drop the inspections because we all pass with flying colours and it is a waste of time and money. The few who don't are normally reported by concerned neighbours etc and never came through the regular review anyway.

 

We still have to register and in doing so state what we intend to do and what curriculum we intend to use (when we are stating out at any rate) and this is quite a process that cuts some hopeless people out as they cannot be bothered jumping through the hoops.

 

But i just thought I would mention that our government reviewers think we

homeschoolers are so great they don't want to check on us anymore!

 

Willow.

That would be lovely. That's a dream for me. We are in a thusfar friendly place that requires annual evaluations and leaves most everyone alone, but the annual evals can get a bit much. This past year I went the cheapest route possible, $20 per portfolio evaluation (a group discount), as I am certain we are all above grade level, everywhere.

 

My 12 y.o., who intends to get her education degree, then stay home and home school, said the only reason she'll get her ed. degree is so she can charge ridiculous amounts of money to flip through notebooks. She couldn't believe her eyes when she saw me hand the wad of cash for about 45min-1hour of page turning. When I told her the lady she had seen the year before received $40 per kid, it blew her mind. "You mean you paid her $40 to read off that piece of paper and ask us a few questions." Yup.

 

I can appreciate there are some who need the accountability, thus this thread, but I wish there were some sort of exemption so I could put that money towards TOG books :D

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LIke PP I too started when pretty much all the children were academically superior. People who declared themselves homeschoolers were truly doing it because they thought it was better for the child and were invested in what they were doing. I'm hearing people call themselves home schooler when in fact they school at home. There is no longer a visible line. Our state began asking for volunteers to send in their students tests scores etc even though our state laws don't require it but many are joining right in not knowing what they are doing. So far we haven't gotten more regulated but as the number of "homeschoolers" grow I see that it will come. I know I will also make several people mad by saying this but I think co-ops are hurting us as well. When the movement started the parent felt that they could do a better job and they wanted their students to be taught one on one as they felt this was a better system. Then co-ops started because parents began to feel they couldn't give their high schoolers the proper education because they thought the subject was above their heads to teach. Unfortunately many people consider this as formal schooling. After all you're teaching more than one student with a teacher that you may not be familiar with. They see that this is no different then sending your child to school. They are beginning to question if this is true homeschooling. I know many courses are difficult and that on line schooling and co-ops seem to be a better option but our increased use of those two make people question if we are in fact homeschooling, as the definition was defined when homeschooling first started. Although I'm hoping I'm wrong I can see all these things as leading more and more states to pass more regulatory laws and even try to make homeschooling illegal again. Like I said we are walking a very thin line right now.

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LIke PP I too started when pretty much all the children were academically superior.

 

People who declared themselves homeschoolers were truly doing it because they thought it was better for the child and were invested in what they were doing.

 

I know I will also make several people mad by saying this but I think co-ops are hurting us as well. .....(MY phrasing here!!) this is no different then sending your child to school.

 

 

I know many courses are difficult and that on line schooling and co-ops seem to be a better option but our increased use of those two make people question if we are in fact homeschooling, as the definition was defined when homeschooling first started. .

 

:iagree: with what you posted and changed a portion to make my point. I know families that exclusively use co-ops.

 

It is almost as if "cheaper" non-regulated private education via co-op classes a couple days of week is the new norm among homeschoolers.

 

Another area of concern about this trend is the fact that many co-ops (almost every one that I have seen) are not very academically inclined. Many parents consider these classes as academically challenging. :confused: I think that they are lowering the standards and skewing realistic academic goals.

 

My teenagers only know a couple other teens that have high academic standards. (This was true even with our oldest.)

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LIke PP I too started when pretty much all the children were academically superior. People who declared themselves homeschoolers were truly doing it because they thought it was better for the child and were invested in what they were doing. I'm hearing people call themselves home schooler when in fact they school at home. There is no longer a visible line. Our state began asking for volunteers to send in their students tests scores etc even though our state laws don't require it but many are joining right in not knowing what they are doing. So far we haven't gotten more regulated but as the number of "homeschoolers" grow I see that it will come. I know I will also make several people mad by saying this but I think co-ops are hurting us as well. When the movement started the parent felt that they could do a better job and they wanted their students to be taught one on one as they felt this was a better system. Then co-ops started because parents began to feel they couldn't give their high schoolers the proper education because they thought the subject was above their heads to teach. Unfortunately many people consider this as formal schooling. After all you're teaching more than one student with a teacher that you may not be familiar with. They see that this is no different then sending your child to school. They are beginning to question if this is true homeschooling. I know many courses are difficult and that on line schooling and co-ops seem to be a better option but our increased use of those two make people question if we are in fact homeschooling, as the definition was defined when homeschooling first started. Although I'm hoping I'm wrong I can see all these things as leading more and more states to pass more regulatory laws and even try to make homeschooling illegal again. Like I said we are walking a very thin line right now.

I agree. I admit, although it might be unpopular as well, schools like Veritas (as one example, not to pick out for any reason in particular) scare me to pieces. I LOVE the college model, but I just don't think of it as home schooling at all, yet even our hs co-op has several members. They even add in all the dances and social activities, so it has a very schoolish flair. I guess I just have concerns that in our freedom, we have taken so much that we'll be reigned in too much and we'll all suffer the consequence.

 

Sending in test scores....ooohhhh. We were even asked to monitor other home schoolers, particularly those who were schooling after truancy as part of an accountability board. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't want anyone overlooking me. How could I overlook someone else?

 

Yuck. I really do hate government oversight. It's definitely something to think about with the upcoming elections.

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DH and I were talking about this last night. There has been a decided upsurge in general flaky-ness among the "homeschoolers" in this area.

Homeschooling has become so easy and mainstream that people who apparently haven't really thought things through just pull their kids from ps during the school year and join up with K12 or something similar. Then they call themselves homeschoolers. They generally haven't done any research, aren't really involved in choosing or evaluating curriculum, don't get involved much with teaching...aren't really doing anything that remotely resembles homeschooling, yet tell everyone around them that that's what they're doing. Bugs me bigtime.

Now I can be flamed again (see my thread related to this from May) for saying there is a difference between ps at home and homeschooling, and that the ps at home option is a threat to homeschooling. :D

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Public school masquerading as homeschool...:rant: :banghead: :cursing:

 

It's been a big problem in California for many years, and it's creeping into other states at a pathetically fast rate.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
DH and I were talking about this last night. There has been a decided upsurge in general flaky-ness among the "homeschoolers" in this area.

Homeschooling has become so easy and mainstream that people who apparently haven't really thought things through just pull their kids from ps during the school year and join up with K12 or something similar. Then they call themselves homeschoolers. They generally haven't done any research, aren't really involved in choosing or evaluating curriculum, don't get involved much with teaching...aren't really doing anything that remotely resembles homeschooling, yet tell everyone around them that that's what they're doing. Bugs me bigtime.

Now I can be flamed again (see my thread related to this from May) for saying there is a difference between ps at home and homeschooling, and that the ps at home option is a threat to homeschooling. :D

You'll get no flames from me!

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Very frightening (horrific title) article. I am not really against testing for homeschool students. The public schools are required to test their students in order to gain funding, so it makes sense. However if homeschoolers are required to test then they should get the same test related benefits as the schools do. If the children in a homeschool perform well on a state required test then the homeschool should receive funding, or at the very least a tax break.

I'm against testing because if you must pass the test you must follow the scope and sequence of the test, which would be an issue for us. I also don't want the government telling what I can or can't do, what curricula I can or can't use, telling me I need their permission, etc. I also don't want government money because it always comes with strings attached. I want my freedom, not the government in my business ;)

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I'm against testing because if you must pass the test you must follow the scope and sequence of the test, which would be an issue for us. I also don't want the government telling what I can or can't do, what curricula I can or can't use, telling me I need their permission, etc. I also don't want government money because it always comes with strings attached. I want my freedom, not the government in my business ;)

 

I hear your sentiment - but do you guys have any suggestions how to help children stuck in a home with parents who do not educate them? Educational neglect is as harmful as physical abuse. I think it is a very difficult balance between the freedoms of the individual and the parent on one side and the protection of children who can not make those choices for themselves on the other.

While I certainly find it comfortable that homeschooling is so very easy in our state, I think there should be some way of holding parents accountable for their children's education.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I hear your sentiment - but do you guys have any suggestions how to help children stuck in a home with parents who do not educate them? Educational neglect is as harmful as physical abuse. I think it is a very difficult balance between the freedoms of the individual and the parent on one side and the protection of children who can not make those choices for themselves on the other.

While I certainly find it comfortable that homeschooling is so very easy in our state, I think there should be some way of holding parents accountable for their children's education.

Probably the same way physical and/or educational abuse can already be reported, through CPS. I think that being reported by individuals who are concerned is probably the most likely way they would be caught even in a heavily restricted state. What parent who is abusing their child is going to readily submit their child for testing, government monitoring, etc? Those who need to be caught the most will find ways around the system. I have nothing against the government requiring those who take government money from being tested, and suspect that would catch those who are "homeschooling" for the subsidies they get from the government, but doubt that would get them all.

 

It's not that I don't care but I don't want my children to suffer because of the neglect of others. Call me a skeptic but I don't think most government officials are wanting to monitor homeschoolers because they are concerned about the quality of the education the children are receiving.

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Public school masquerading as homeschool...:rant: :banghead: :cursing:

 

It's been a big problem in California for many years, and it's creeping into other states at a pathetically fast rate.

Actually, when the speaker came, she said just that. CA, also being so crucial in textbook production is basically considered the "look and see the future" state for educational legislation. Really scary. No offense Californians, but some crazy stuff goes on in your beautiful state. (Not that other states don't get their share of crazy ;) )

 

I hear your sentiment - but do you guys have any suggestions how to help children stuck in a home with parents who do not educate them? Educational neglect is as harmful as physical abuse. I think it is a very difficult balance between the freedoms of the individual and the parent on one side and the protection of children who can not make those choices for themselves on the other.

While I certainly find it comfortable that homeschooling is so very easy in our state, I think there should be some way of holding parents accountable for their children's education.

I was also going to suggest CPS. There are laws in FL that tell us what to teach vaguely, which essentially amount to 3R's + science + history. I don't object to those light requirements, I just think annual evaluations can be a little much (especially on one income).

 

I will admit, however, I don't like the idea of reporting unless I am certain an extreme neglect is occurring. While I believe educational neglect is real, I do think it is something that can be remedied during adulthood with less trauma than physical or emotional abuse. I find most parents, who leave the education to public schools to be neglectful and those kids were in a system with "standards." Some people are perfectly content with career training and apprentices, instead of compulsory education for high school (as was the norm not long ago in this nation). They have every right to pursue that direction, yet under current laws, they do not. I would overall, prefer less gov't oversight in this area and would really prefer a stronger local gov't, where citizens are more likely to guide and participate in the discussion.

 

I'm against testing because if you must pass the test you must follow the scope and sequence of the test, which would be an issue for us. I also don't want the government telling what I can or can't do, what curricula I can or can't use, telling me I need their permission, etc. I also don't want government money because it always comes with strings attached. I want my freedom, not the government in my business ;)
:iagree:How do things work in CA? I see a lot of folks under umbrella schools.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Actually, when the speaker came, she said just that. CA, also being so crucial in textbook production is basically considered the "look and see the future" state for educational legislation. Really scary. No offense Californians, but some crazy stuff goes on in your beautiful state. (Not that other states don't get their share of crazy ;) )

 

No offense taken. Believe me, if we could leave we would!!

 

 

I was also going to suggest CPS. There are laws in FL that tell us what to teach vaguely, which essentially amount to 3R's + science + history. I don't object to those light requirements, I just think annual evaluations can be a little much (especially on one income).

 

I will admit, however, I don't like the idea of reporting unless I am certain an extreme neglect is occurring. While I believe educational neglect is real, I do think it is something that can be remedied during adulthood with less trauma than physical or emotional abuse. I find most parents, who leave the education to public schools to be neglectful and those kids were in a system with "standards." Some people are perfectly content with career training and apprentices, instead of compulsory education for high school (as was the norm not long ago in this nation). They have every right to pursue that direction, yet under current laws, they do not. I would overall, prefer less gov't oversight in this area and would really prefer a stronger local gov't, where citizens are more likely to guide and participate in the discussion.

 

:iagree:How do things work in CA? I see a lot of folks under umbrella schools.

You can file your own private school affidavit (meaning you are your own private school), enroll in a Private school Satellite Program (umbrella school), or hire a certified private tutor. The vast majority choose option 1 or 2 and are homeschooling as private school students, the same as if they were enrolled in a brick or mortar private school. The required subjects are: English and must “offer instruction in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools.†Grades 1-6: English, mathematics, social sciences, science, fine arts, health, physical education. Kind of funny if you ask me, and nothing in regards to high school. Since homeschoolers currently homeschool as private schooled children any legislation would affect all private schools, unless legislation was passed that removed us from the private school category. As far as states go it's not bad at all, at least for now.

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No offense taken. Believe me, if we could leave we would!!

 

 

You can file your own private school affidavit (meaning you are your own private school), enroll in a Private school Satellite Program (umbrella school), or hire a certified private tutor. The vast majority choose option 1 or 2 and are homeschooling as private school students, the same as if they were enrolled in a brick or mortar private school. The required subjects are: English and must “offer instruction in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools.†Grades 1-6: English, mathematics, social sciences, science, fine arts, health, physical education. Kind of funny if you ask me, and nothing in regards to high school. Since homeschoolers currently homeschool as private schooled children any legislation would affect all private schools, unless legislation was passed that removed us from the private school category. As far as states go it's not bad at all, at least for now.

So, does the state have an accurate count of home schoolers?

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
So, does the state have an accurate count of home schoolers?

I don't see how they could since we aren't required to report. Many who file their own affidavits would be obvious (very few private schools have only a few students, LOL) but there are many large PSPs that wouldn't be so obvious. My PSP has around 215 families (which add up to many more students since most family have several children, and a lot have many) and wouldn't stand out nearly as much. I suppose they could have officials from local school districts try to ferret out which private schools are private schools and which are PSP's in each district but that wouldn't be a small task.

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I don't see how they could since we aren't required to report. Many who file their own affidavits would be obvious (very few private schools have only a few students, LOL) but there are many large PSPs that wouldn't be so obvious. My PSP has around 215 families (which add up to many more students since most family have several children, and a lot have many) and wouldn't stand out nearly as much. I suppose they could have officials from local school districts try to ferret out which private schools are private schools and which are PSP's in each district but that wouldn't be a small task.

Wow. That's interesting. I wonder how many hser there are and since CA is such a large state, if the percentage would Really increase the national average. Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Wow. That's interesting. I wonder how many hser there are and since CA is such a large state, if the percentage would Really increase the national average. Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

I think Ellie used to run a PSP in CA and could probably give better info.

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Wow. That's interesting. I wonder how many hser there are and since CA is such a large state, if the percentage would Really increase the national average. Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

No one will ever know how many homeschoolers there are, but the numbers must be huge (the Christian state organization's two annual conventions draw over 10,000 people, and then there are the two secular state-wide groups' conventions; based on those numbers alone there must be a truckload of homeschooled children). And so, yes, I'm sure the national average would increase.

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I'm sure there are some who don't take educating their children very seriously, but really, there can't be *that* many who are doing worse than the public schools. It would be ten times easier and cheaper for me to drop my kid off at the local ps each morning; most parents wouldn't choose homeschooling if they didn't believe in making the effort for their kid(s). As for the "not as rigorous as classical" homeschoolers... not every student is going to be an academic superstar, no matter how they are educated. 1000s of kids fall through the cracks at public school.

 

I do not consider 'educational neglect' to be anywhere near as serious as physical abuse or not providing food and a safe environment for your child. CPS doesn't even do a good enough job improving the lives of kids living with drugged out parents, let's not ask them to start making sure kids are up to snuff in math as well. Fortunately, a kid can always learn math later on --- totally different from physical abuse.

 

Here in Minnesota we have to do a standardized test every year, but the parent chooses the test, the test giver, and receives the results. The results are not reported anywhere. On the one hand this bugs me -- any oversight at all bothers me because it is government intrusion into my personal business and I hate that. Plus I have read studies where increased government regulation does not improve homeschooling results, they do fine on their own so it's a waste of taxpayer money. On the other hand, I do believe kids need to be prepared for standardized testing if they are going to compete academically and it's a good way to make sure there are no gaps. I just think it should be the parent's choice, not the states. And if the state is going to require it, they should be reimbursing us for it shouldn't they?

 

I loooove the idea a PP mentioned about receiving the same amount of money as the public schools if our kids are passing the same tests!!

 

Lest anyone fear that I am one of those mediocre hs'ers and thus biased, let me assure you that my kids are scoring in the top % on their std tests. I work my butt off to provide these kids with a rigorous, customized education! I still don't think that that I, or the state, should get to choose how others educate their children.

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Whew. So I went back and read the 24 page thread from May...and June ;)

 

It was awfully long for me to come to this conclusion: legally categorize each educational option in its own category and the nay sayers would be happy. In daily speech, just say home schooler and it'll be okay ;)

 

Now I see why the last 2 people who heard I home schooled immediately asked if I use online schooling. It hadn't occurred to me until then.

 

I'm in the "all for educational options" camp; however, I see the little foothold the variety can bring, regarding regulations (They are tested, so why can't all home schoolers be tested in this way?). One small step and in a decade or two, the legal requirements could very well be increased. A legal discrimination in definition could prevent this. It will take some work, though, which leads to my original post: we received this warning from a lobbiest who has been in Tallahassee for around 20 years. She sees the day to day, she walks the hill, I believe what she says.

 

I will say, it's all about money for the box providers. K12, Connections, etc. ARE making money with every enrollment --- there is NO DOUBT about that. And I found it sneaky that after FLVS (Virtual School) was successful, FLVA (Virtual Academy) popped up. There is a statewide yahoo group to which I belong and the discussion comes up annually. I found the name similarities purposefully tricky. Clearly there could be confusion, so why not choose something totally different....b/c they want the money!

 

FWIW, in my district, they closed the county option to use the Academies, get the free computer, etc b/c when budget cuts came, it was the least important area to fund.

 

I'm all for options, just hoping the options won't lead us back to complete government oversight. They can't handle what they oversee now.

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LIke PP I too started when pretty much all the children were academically superior. People who declared themselves homeschoolers were truly doing it because they thought it was better for the child and were invested in what they were doing. I'm hearing people call themselves home schooler when in fact they school at home. There is no longer a visible line. Our state began asking for volunteers to send in their students tests scores etc even though our state laws don't require it but many are joining right in not knowing what they are doing. So far we haven't gotten more regulated but as the number of "homeschoolers" grow I see that it will come. I know I will also make several people mad by saying this but I think co-ops are hurting us as well. When the movement started the parent felt that they could do a better job and they wanted their students to be taught one on one as they felt this was a better system. Then co-ops started because parents began to feel they couldn't give their high schoolers the proper education because they thought the subject was above their heads to teach. Unfortunately many people consider this as formal schooling. After all you're teaching more than one student with a teacher that you may not be familiar with. They see that this is no different then sending your child to school. They are beginning to question if this is true homeschooling. I know many courses are difficult and that on line schooling and co-ops seem to be a better option but our increased use of those two make people question if we are in fact homeschooling, as the definition was defined when homeschooling first started. Although I'm hoping I'm wrong I can see all these things as leading more and more states to pass more regulatory laws and even try to make homeschooling illegal again. Like I said we are walking a very thin line right now.

:iagree: And WOW!----I can't believe I am reading opinions like this now. Because a few years ago this pov would have been beaten to death (but not necessarily on WTM) because of people very touchy about what a true 'homeschooler' is i.e. 'I am schooling my child at home, so therefore we are homeschoolers'. Since I live in an area with no coops or CC's and a horrible one public high school, the entire burden of education falls on my shoulders---gladly. I see the high pressure, 'guilt' ads that tell parents you aren't good enough, you can't do it---especially at the high school level. Coming even from regular curriculum providers that now have an online class option that costs a small fortune per class----OH---but think of the superior education your child will get using a 'real' teacher. And yes---the 'free' virtual academies that entice parents who don't really understand what accepting state money does to 'real' homeschoolers. Yes---it's a fine line that has been warned about for years by the die hard 'Do it ourselves all the way to graduation' homeschoolers.

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DH and I were talking about this last night. There has been a decided upsurge in general flaky-ness among the "homeschoolers" in this area.

Homeschooling has become so easy and mainstream that people who apparently haven't really thought things through just pull their kids from ps during the school year and join up with K12 or something similar. Then they call themselves homeschoolers. They generally haven't done any research, aren't really involved in choosing or evaluating curriculum, don't get involved much with teaching...aren't really doing anything that remotely resembles homeschooling, yet tell everyone around them that that's what they're doing. Bugs me bigtime.

Now I can be flamed again (see my thread related to this from May) for saying there is a difference between ps at home and homeschooling, and that the ps at home option is a threat to homeschooling. :D

 

Oh yes---exactly! Perfect case in point: A good friend of mine in CA who has a very mentally ill son who the schools no longer can handle or want to deal with. So the only option the 'schools' gave her was to 'homeschool' using the virtual academy. He hasn't really done any formal schoolwork in years, and at this point will NOT comply because of his mental problems. He simply won't do anything he is told. But the system keeps promoting him to the next grade. And my friend talks about 'homeschooling' all the time. And wanted me to get my kids enrolled in their same program so we could do 'school' together. Sigh.....and then I had to kind of deflate her excitement bubble when I explained that I will NOT take state money, and why and why the curriculum I use is far superior and why I prefer to be teacher, etc. I chickened out at getting too deeply into the whole Real Homeschoolers and Public School at Home debate. :001_huh:

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When I told her the lady she had seen the year before received $40 per kid, it blew her mind. "You mean you paid her $40 to read off that piece of paper and ask us a few questions." Yup.

:D

 

Although not a critical part of this thread, in PA we have 3rd party evaluations as part of our law as well. It annoyed me that we as a hs community bring meals to new moms, teach at co-ops or Sunday school, help out in other ways and never expect to be paid for it. I was also annoyed that I would get public school teachers who wanted in on the lucrative evaluation process and wanted my help getting them "in". I started a ministry of doing free legal evaluations. I did a few one year, more the next, etc. Then I got volunteers who are certified teacher homeschool moms who also had my vision to help. We go to a park, moms and children come and get their evaluations done. We do only what is required by law. I can basically tell in a few minutes that the child is being educated so I don't go through the charade of looking intently at their portfolios. Last year, my ministry did over 570 free evaluations in Western PA, saving the homeschool community over $25,000, which was better spent on their families. The volunteers spent a day at the park, not much of a burden. Why can't the homeschool community organize themselves to help each other out?

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I'm all for options, just hoping the options won't lead us back to complete government oversight. They can't handle what they oversee now.

The proliferation of government oversight via the charter schools (on-line/virtual or otherwise) means that governments don't even have to worry about passing new, restrictive laws; they'll just suck unsuspecting homeschoolers in by holding out the offer of "free" everything.

 

:ack2:

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Why can't the homeschool community organize themselves to help each other out?

 

What a lovely thing you have organized!

 

Unfortunately, in MN, the law requires "standardized testing," so only certain nationally normed tests are allowed. Those tests have their own rules about who can administer them, how much they cost, etc. However, MN gives a small stipend each year, which could be used to pay for those tests.

 

Wish I was over in your neck of the woods :)

Julie

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
The proliferation of government oversight via the charter schools (on-line/virtual or otherwise) means that governments don't even have to worry about passing new, restrictive laws; they'll just suck unsuspecting homeschoolers in by holding out the offer of "free" everything.

 

:ack2:

Unfortunately :iagree: I see a LOT of it here :(

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So, what do you do if the child is NOT being educated? We have the evaluation option in CO, but I've not opted to do them as I don't want to be put in that position. I'm a licensed teacher, so I CAN do them, but don't. I offer ITBS at cost every spring, though. I've been contacted by folks to evaluate their children but I've declined as I know they've been spending all their time at church and not hitting the books.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
So, what do you do if the child is NOT being educated? We have the evaluation option in CO, but I've not opted to do them as I don't want to be put in that position. I'm a licensed teacher, so I CAN do them, but don't. I offer ITBS at cost every spring, though. I've been contacted by folks to evaluate their children but I've declined as I know they've been spending all their time at church and not hitting the books.

Why decline? It seems like evaluating them would give you an opportunity to help them see where they are lacking and how to improve.

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Although not a critical part of this thread, in PA we have 3rd party evaluations as part of our law as well. It annoyed me that we as a hs community bring meals to new moms, teach at co-ops or Sunday school, help out in other ways and never expect to be paid for it. I was also annoyed that I would get public school teachers who wanted in on the lucrative evaluation process and wanted my help getting them "in". I started a ministry of doing free legal evaluations. I did a few one year, more the next, etc. Then I got volunteers who are certified teacher homeschool moms who also had my vision to help. We go to a park, moms and children come and get their evaluations done. We do only what is required by law. I can basically tell in a few minutes that the child is being educated so I don't go through the charade of looking intently at their portfolios. Last year, my ministry did over 570 free evaluations in Western PA, saving the homeschool community over $25,000, which was better spent on their families. The volunteers spent a day at the park, not much of a burden. Why can't the homeschool community organize themselves to help each other out?

That is outstanding. I have many times wondered myself the very same thing. I know a person here or there who helps a friend out, but to start the ministry would be so very wonderful.

What a lovely thing you have organized!

 

Unfortunately, in MN, the law requires "standardized testing," so only certain nationally normed tests are allowed. Those tests have their own rules about who can administer them, how much they cost, etc. However, MN gives a small stipend each year, which could be used to pay for those tests.

 

Wish I was over in your neck of the woods :)

Julie

Many teachers can become certified to proctor those tests. I think paying for the test itself would be pretty darn inexpensive.

 

Unfortunately :iagree: I see a LOT of it here :(
Me, too. I don't mind the option, but I admit it kinda makes me turn my head and ask, "Huh?" each time people now ASSUME I use K12 b/c I "home school."

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Unfortunately :iagree: I see a LOT of it here :(

Yup. California is the poster child for how to give up one's homeschooling freedoms for government oversight.:ack2::thumbdown:

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I just went to FaceBook and changed my info to Classically Home Schooling! Good point!

 

"Like" :)

 

Actually, I use a state program here in WA called CVA and I still consider myself a complete 'home' schooler - not a public schooler. CVA doesn't dictate what we learn or how we learn it. Added bonus: We get money (up to, but not limited to $1200/year/child) from the state but they don't dictate what I teach.

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Beth, just curious. What does the state consider you? As in the legal status? Do you still file a Intent to Home School each fall? What does CVA stand for?

 

Lisaj, also in WA

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Beth, just curious. What does the state consider you? As in the legal status? Do you still file a Intent to Home School each fall? What does CVA stand for?

 

Lisaj, also in WA

 

I think Beth is referring to Columbia Virtual Academy. It is considered a "A Tuition-Free Public School." They support "family choice education through the values of personalization, flexibility, choice, and control."

http://www.columbiavirtualacademy.org/

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I will say, it's all about money for the box providers.

 

K12, Connections, etc. ARE making money with every enrollment --- there is NO DOUBT about that. And I found it sneaky that after FLVS (Virtual School) was successful, FLVA (Virtual Academy) popped up.

 

Exactly. The FLVA component that is offered now in (almost) all Florida counties keeps the student enrolled in a "virtual" county school which is the best of both worlds for the county.

 

First, the county still receives funds for that student.

 

Second, the student is NOT taking up space in a physical classroom, and therefore, the overhead (cost) for that student is decreased.

 

IMHO, FLVS can easily benefit the homeschooler. The FLVA is a whole 'nother creature.

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Why decline? It seems like evaluating them would give you an opportunity to help them see where they are lacking and how to improve.

 

Because with one exception, the moms wanted me to sign the paper saying that the children were being educated when they weren't. They were building a church, NOT hitting the books! They were not interested in seeing where they were lacking and how to improve. I'd be stuck, expecting to be paid, but the piece of paper would be no good to them, as it would not state that the child was making adequate yearly progress.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Because with one exception, the moms wanted me to sign the paper saying that the children were being educated when they weren't. They were building a church, NOT hitting the books! They were not interested in seeing where they were lacking and how to improve. I'd be stuck, expecting to be paid, but the piece of paper would be no good to them, as it would not state that the child was making adequate yearly progress.

That doesn't mean you had to sign it saying that they passed. I'd do the evaluation and explain to them why you couldn't sign it saying that they were adequately educating their children. Aren't you paid for the evaluation whether or not they pass? They may not want to hear what you had to say but they needed to hear it. If someone is signing their evaluation saying that they passed when there is no way that they could then that person needs to be turned in for fraud.

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Exactly. The FLVA component that is offered now in (almost) all Florida counties keeps the student enrolled in a "virtual" county school which is the best of both worlds for the county.

 

First, the county still receives funds for that student.

 

Second, the student is NOT taking up space in a physical classroom, and therefore, the overhead (cost) for that student is decreased.

 

IMHO, FLVS can easily benefit the homeschooler. The FLVA is a whole 'nother creature.

:iagree:Yup. And the crossover advertising is VERY tricky and confusing. Someone in my co-op got taken to the FLVA website and nearly signed up. The ONLY reason she didn't was b/c she had used FLVS the year before and the sign in page looked totally different.

 

Because with one exception, the moms wanted me to sign the paper saying that the children were being educated when they weren't. They were building a church, NOT hitting the books! They were not interested in seeing where they were lacking and how to improve. I'd be stuck, expecting to be paid, but the piece of paper would be no good to them, as it would not state that the child was making adequate yearly progress.
Ouch. That is s sticky situation no doubt. May I ask, how you concluded they weren't hitting the books?

 

That doesn't mean you had to sign it saying that they passed. I'd do the evaluation and explain to them why you couldn't sign it saying that they were adequately educating their children. Aren't you paid for the evaluation whether or not they pass? They may not want to hear what you had to say but they needed to hear it. If someone is signing their evaluation saying that they passed when there is no way that they could then that person needs to be turned in for fraud.
I agree w/ being honest...and I also know the parent would then simply find another evaluator that would pass them. I've heard many parents do this.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I agree w/ being honest...and I also know the parent would then simply find another evaluator that would pass them. I've heard many parents do this.

This is one of the reasons I don't think increased monitoring by the government would be effective. Those who aren't doing their jobs will find ways around it, even if it means doing things illegally. These kinds of people are only going to be caught if people in the community report them. Extreme government monitoring might catch some but even then I'm sure many wouldn't be caught and extreme monitoring would be way too intrusive. I'm sure we are all very much against parents physically abusing their children but would we be willing to have regular visits by a social worker to our home monitoring and evaluating our parenting to make sure everything we do is approved by the government? I don't think so.

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