Is there anyone who has used Rod & Staff grammar and found something you like better?

[MommyInTraining]

I like R & S English, but I am wondering if there is something better out there.

 

Thanks!

[paulcindy]

Yes, CLE LA. I think it is actually better, and is in workbook format.

[mamaof2andtwins]

We moved from R&S to CLE language arts. Our choice was based a lot on the format of CLE verses R&S. I do not feel that I have compromised content at all.

 

Jennie

[littlemomof3]

Huh. Well I am not the norm I guess. I went from R&S staff mid year this year. R&S English 3 to CLE LA3 and to be honest I enjoyed R&S better. I didnt really like the LA spelling which was with the LA light units. So that was a part we had to skip over. I dont know. There was just something about it that I didnt care for. So we came back to R&S and will probably stick with it for a while. CLE is a great program but not for everyone.

[Heather in OK]

What is CLE?

[PeterPan]

We went from R&S to Shurley and haven't looked back. What are you wanting to be better? Content? Ease of use? Interest factor?

[mamaof2andtwins]

What is CLE?

 

Heather,

 

CLE is Christian Light Education.

 

If you do a search of the boards you will find a lot of discussion.

 

Jennie

[MommyInTraining]

We went from R&S to Shurley and haven't looked back. What are you wanting to be better? Content? Ease of use? Interest factor?

Well, I really like the thoroughness of R & S. Right now my dd is just on book 2, so we are doing most of it orally as it is so easy and just laying the foundation. I am concerned that it will bore my ds though when it is his time for grammar. I had also been using Queens LL with my dd and I am not liking what I am seeing with it. I wanted the more gentle approach, but I am not feeling like it is teaching enough.

 

I was looking at WP LA for my ds for the fun factor of it, but didn't really care for the samples I saw there.

 

I guess I like R&S, just wondering if there is something similar that would appeal more to the "fun" side of things :001_huh:.

 

Comments?

[mazakaal]

Not exactly fun, but a lot less time-consuming than R&S... Growing With Grammar. I did R&S with my oldest for 3rd, 4th, 5th, and with my #2 for 3rd, 4th. I thought it was very thorough, but it took so much of my time because I did a lot of the work orally with them. I switched my oldest to Easy Grammar which was easy, but nothing stuck in his head. This year we used SOS and haven't liked it at all. Next year I'll be trying CLE with him. This year I used GWG with my #2 and I love it. If they had it for the older years, I would have my oldest use it also, and I plan on using it with my youngest 2dc beginning in 3rd grade.

[Tenaj]

We switched from R&S to Growing with Grammar and my sixth grader still thanks me every once in a while after almost a whole year. I've noticed no difference in content, just ease of use and less-time consuming. I'm going to cover my ears as you all are talking about CLE! I'm always tempted that the grass is greener somewhere else!

[PeterPan]

Terri, I don't remember exactly, but did I see on this board (or somewhere else while googling) that you really want to lean toward a textbook persuasion? I wasn't sure what options you're open to. Here's what I see. You have a 10 yo dd, ie. a 4th or 5th grader?, doing R&S2. (unless that was a typo) I see you have a flock of kids. I suggest the most efficient way to teach them is to be very involved on the front end, building a foundation, and then give them something they can proceed with relatively indepedently. FLL1/2 would be appropriate for your 7 yo ds. If you have your 10 yo dd memorize the defs along with him, then she could go directly into any age-appropriate (5th gr) grammar program you wish (GWG, Shurley, whatever). A solid foundation means less work and less teaching on your part later. You don't have time to do CM-style lessons with so many littles, kwim? You want to be pretty efficient.

 

I like Shurley, but that doesn't mean it's right for you. The sentences are picturesque and interesting. The format is consistent enough that you can get pretty fast in implementing it. And there's enough repetition that students become quite independent after a while. I wasn't impressed with the writing in the early levels of Shurley, but level 7 has TONS of really great writing projects. I haven't seen 6 or 5 to comment on them. In the past we've done just the parsing, but for this new level I'm planning to do all the writing, everything. It (level 7) has editing assignments, lots of good writing, challenging exercises with pronouns, verb conjugations, etc. I'm just really pleased with it. It's a really solid LA program, especially if you just add on a weekly book report.

 

Writing is actually the most important thing you need to be doing with your dd, not grammar. If the grammar program includes writing, so much the better and easier for you. If it doesn't, make sure you're having them write. Doing R&S orally, while an option, misses the opportunity to increase their writing. I've had an epiphany about this lately, as I didn't really *get* it before. I didn't get why there was all this "busywork" built into curricula, but it's for the WRITING. They need to write. When they copy those sentences with words they don't know, they're learning to spell them. When they answer questions about graphs, write corrections, etc., they're learning to spell all those words. It's tremendously important. I've become a busywork fan, I guess you could say.

 

Well that's enough of that! Build a foundation, then get things they can do themselves with some guidance, something with a workbook. That's my two cents. FLL1/2 is a terrific foundation for anything. If they've done that, they can go into WT2, no problem (grammar-wise). Your 7 yo ds should be learning to write his own narrations. With that plus FLL1/2 as a foundation, he could go on into FLL3, GWG3, or any program you want.

Edited April 9, 2009 by OhElizabeth

[Guest aquiverfull]

 

Writing is actually the most important thing you need to be doing with your dd, not grammar. If the grammar program includes writing, so much the better and easier for you. If it doesn't, make sure you're having them write. Doing R&S orally, while an option, misses the opportunity to increase their writing. I've had an epiphany about this lately, as I didn't really *get* it before. I didn't get why there was all this "busywork" built into curricula, but it's for the WRITING. They need to write. When they copy those sentences with words they don't know, they're learning to spell them. When they answer questions about graphs, write corrections, etc., they're learning to spell all those words. It's tremendously important. I've become a busywork fan, I guess you could say.

 

 

 

Elizabeth's posts are always filled with wisdom. She is right on with what she said. I have also recently come to the exact same conclusion. I always had my daughter skip that or we chose curriculum that didn't have all that so called busywork and now I see how much her writing is lacking. I'm now looking for busywork..lol. :D

[pbjmeyer]

especially for mid-elementary years. Learning Language Arts Thru Literature.

 

My friend like Bob Jones LA - and it was a well-organized workbook style approach. It was colorful and easy to follow even without a TM.

 

But as we got to 5th grade, I felt a more detailed approach was necessary and we switched to R&S at that time. We have continued with it and are finishing 6th grade.

[hmschooling]

Have you considered doing some of the assignment orally, then together on the white board, then just have him write a couple from each section on his own? This has made it fun for my dd who is in R&S 3. There's so much writing that makes it seem blah...but the white board and colored markers adds fun to it!

[razorbackmama]

Granted, we haven't made the switch yet (I'm forcing myself to wait till the beginning of our new school year LOLOLOL), but we will try Junior Analytical Grammar for my 5th grader (next year) and Analytical Grammar for my 7th grader. Prior to that they don't do any formal grammar.

 

Now, if THAT flops, then I'll most likely either do Easy Grammar or FLL, switching to R&S but teaching the prepositions first, a la EG. That method just works REALLY well for my kids. I'd LOVE EG totally, but it doesn't include diagramming, and I want that.

[emmsmama]

Maybe I'll check out GWG. WTM Level 3 was okay for dd, but the paper usage in the Workbook and verbage for the lessons is a bit overkill sometimes.

[Jill- OK]

Is it the same content as R&S?

 

I would LOVE to switch to something else (starting another batch of kiddos on grammar soon, and I just wilt at the thought of more years of R&S)...but I don't want to sacrifice the content of R&S.

 

Are they fairly close, as far as scope and sequence? (I'm talking all the way through). Diagramming?

 

TIA. (I'm also off to look for samples, table of contents, etc....I'd just love to hear Real Mom Input. ;-)

[Colleen in NS]

Well, I really like the thoroughness of R & S. Right now my dd is just on book 2, so we are doing most of it orally as it is so easy and just laying the foundation. I am concerned that it will bore my ds though when it is his time for grammar.

 

I guess I like R&S, just wondering if there is something similar that would appeal more to the "fun" side of things :001_huh:.

 

I noticed you are doing R&S book 2. The FLL series is fun for that level of study, and as thorough as R&S. We used FLL 1 and 2 as a foundation to R&S 3 (before FLL 3 and 4 came out - or I'd probably have continued with FLL 3 and 4, and started R&S at level 5 after FLL 4).

[Melissa in CA]

I switched my youngest from R&S to BJU in 4th grade (he's almost finished with 6th). BJU has been great. He is gradually learning and it is actually sinking in. He can diagram with no problem as they do teach diagramming...starting simple and adding more complexity each year. BJU also contains writing chapters to teach different writing genres. We now skip the writing because I prefer a more classical approach, but the several writing chapters we have done over the years have been simple and straight forward, walking the child through the writing process step by step.

[mamaof2andtwins]

Is it the same content as R&S?

 

I would LOVE to switch to something else (starting another batch of kiddos on grammar soon, and I just wilt at the thought of more years of R&S)...but I don't want to sacrifice the content of R&S.

 

Are they fairly close, as far as scope and sequence? (I'm talking all the way through). Diagramming?

 

TIA. (I'm also off to look for samples, table of contents, etc....I'd just love to hear Real Mom Input. ;-)

 

 

I don't know how far you have gone with R&S. I only survived through the 5th grade book. I have used CLE throuhg 8th grade, and the content is very good, IMO.

 

If you have the R&S at home, you can compare them to the samples of CLE on their website. The samples are a little tricky to find. If you click on the individual lightunit numbers on the order page, you will go to a new page with just that lightunit on it. From there you will be able to click on the sample pages. I know this is true for math, but I have not looked at all of the Language Arts yet.

 

Christian Light Education

 

Jennie

 

 

[mamaof2andtwins]

Here is the scope and sequence to CLE. The only error is the 8th grade math is the old non-Sunrise Edition scope nad sequence. There is a separate scope and sequence for the 7-12 grade, but I can't seem to lay my hands on it right now.

 

Jennie

[Jill- OK]

I was wondering specifically about diagramming, and it looks like they start that in...400? Is that fourth grade?

 

I'm seriously considering this. I never thought I'd leave R&S, but...dang. A girl can only take so much, you know, lol? ;)

[Homeschooling6]

We started with R&S with my 5th grade son but switched to GWG. Next year I am going to have him use CQLA because it includes writing, spelling & grammar.

 

My other dc are using different things for different reasons next year:

4th grade dd CLE LA 4

3rd grade ds either CQLA or GWG3

2nd grade ds CLE2

 

We tried R&S but it's too much and we prefer a workbooks.

 

Blessings,

[PeterPan]

Hey Melissa, I have my dd doing the BJU reading 5 right now, hope to finish by next week, then go on to the reading 6, which I'm working through right now to make plans. Having done "classical" writing programs (WT, CW Aesop and some Homer, etc., and WTM-style writing), I've been surprised how many elements used in those programs ARE in the BJU writing assignments. It's just they're in the other subjects, not writing! The BJU reading 5 has them notetaking, doing multi-step outlining, paraphrasing. In the BJU 6 reading the retell paragraphs changing the perspective (1st person to 3rd person), do things with foreshadowing, what CW Homer calls copia exercises, and work through all the major literary elements. I don't know, just surprised me how many of the writing elements we're knocking ourselves out to get are actually IN there, in the plain old, always been around, BJU stuff. Go figure.

[mamaof2andtwins]

I was wondering specifically about diagramming, and it looks like they start that in...400? Is that fourth grade?

 

I'm seriously considering this. I never thought I'd leave R&S, but...dang. A girl can only take so much, you know, lol? ;)

 

Diagramming begins in lightunit 209 of the 2nd grade. They do not go beyond digramming simple subject, simple predicate and adjectives in 2nd and 3rd grade. In the 3rd grade level they do diagram the verb phrase (main verb and helping verb).

 

Jennie

[Melissa in CA]

Hey Melissa, I have my dd doing the BJU reading 5 right now, hope to finish by next week, then go on to the reading 6, which I'm working through right now to make plans. Having done "classical" writing programs (WT, CW Aesop and some Homer, etc., and WTM-style writing), I've been surprised how many elements used in those programs ARE in the BJU writing assignments. It's just they're in the other subjects, not writing! The BJU reading 5 has them notetaking, doing multi-step outlining, paraphrasing. In the BJU 6 reading the retell paragraphs changing the perspective (1st person to 3rd person), do things with foreshadowing, what CW Homer calls copia exercises, and work through all the major literary elements. I don't know, just surprised me how many of the writing elements we're knocking ourselves out to get are actually IN there, in the plain old, always been around, BJU stuff. Go figure.

 

No Kidding? Perhaps I should give BJU's reading another look-see. My son did use it in 4th grade, but only as an elective because he was already completing SL's Core 3 Lit. He CHOSE to do the BJU Reading 4 because we had the video's for it and he loved the teacher and the cowboy theme. I never once looked at the TM. :blink:

[PeterPan]

Yup, the BJU reading is WAY more than just reading. If it weren't, would I be doing it?? LOL I don't know if it's the ultimate, in fact I'm sure there are things I'd like done better. (breakout units on Pilgrim's Progress, more hands-on activities, etc.) And of course there's busywork and the seemingly endless number of workbook pages. But I'll tell you, what it has done for us is in the most painless, brainless (for me) way upped the ante on our work. She's writing more, doing more, and doing things more maturely. I know it's partly the passage of time, but I think it's just having her do WORK. It's not enough to be able to think on that level, you need to be able to put it into words or know there are words for the concepts, kwim? The BJU5 was a really good place for us to jump in, because it was introductory and got her used to the workload pretty painlessly. The BJU6 is deceptively simple, with SO many things covered, oh my! And the lit 7 is what I'm wanting to see at the convention. From the online samples it appears to have a lot of writing. I'm hoping it's my solution to the perpetual "need to write more" problem. My dd needs short assignments that have a purpose, a reason, and some thought. Looks like the lit 7 is going to fit that bill.

 

Just so you know, reading 6 is the last level with a workbook. After that it goes to some kind of integrated text and assignment thing where they do lots of writing, best as I can tell from the online samples.

 

I'm not saying the BJU reading doesn't have flaws, because it does. The things we find to be flaws are probably strengths to someone else (grade-level reading assignments, etc.). I started it because I wanted to expose her to a variety of genres rather than letting her read just historical fiction and comics all day (her preference). I'm sticking with it, because I'm blown away by the content coverage, the nuances of thought they develop, and the writing they weave in. It's totally worth it in my book. The lower levels I skipped because she didn't need phonics. But these upper levels are totally worthwhile. And what I'm doing to rectify the snippets and Press author stuff is going through, making my own schedule, and skipping some stuff, using whole books or source books whenever possible, etc. I've bought a good portion of the lit 7 source books so far, and they're VERY diverse, very interesting. Lit 7 is all literature btw, no Press author stuff. Reading 6 still is about 50% press authors, but just skip the grossest stuff (the stuff at the beginning of the book), kwim? The skills they manage to pull out of it using the worksheets are tremendous and justify looking the other way a little. ;)

 

Oh, want a list of books used in Reading 6? Now granted they use snippets, but nothing is stopping you from pausing and using the whole:

 

The Foundling by Hayner (fabulous, even I liked this and it's history!)

East O'the Sun by Dasent (collection of tales)

Men of Iron by Howard Pyle, who happens to have great King Arthur books

Emily Dickinson

Swiss Family Robinson

The Little Princess

Tom Sawyer

Call It Courage by Armstrong Sperry

Robert Browning

The Peterkin Papers by Lucretia Hale

Oliver Twist by Dickens

The Wind in the Willows by Grahame

Sherlock Holmes

Robinson Crusoe

biography of Eric Liddell

 

Good stuff, eh? :)

[Jill- OK]

Diagramming begins in lightunit 209 of the 2nd grade. They do not go beyond digramming simple subject, simple predicate and adjectives in 2nd and 3rd grade. In the 3rd grade level they do diagram the verb phrase (main verb and helping verb).

 

Jennie

 

I must have missed that. It's sounding better and better. :001_smile:

[mamaof2andtwins]

I must have missed that. It's sounding better and better. :001_smile:

 

 

The only reason I know this is one of my twins is working in 209 right now.

 

Jennie