noah&emmasmommy Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Okay, so I'm posting like crazy. My son, who has used Easy Grammar, now in the gr. 5 book, doesn't seem to be able to retain info from these books. I really love EG, the way it's presented, and the simplified approach. Since Susan Wise Bauer recommend Rod & Staff as the best, would it be a big deal to start in R&S 6 Progressing with Courage next year? I just wonder if the drill in R&S would help him to retain info better. Since there's not much drill in EG, I think that's why he seems to be forgetting. Also, any thought on A Beka Language or BJU are welcome also, as I'm considering them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Okay, so I'm posting like crazy. My son, who has used Easy Grammar, now in the gr. 5 book, doesn't seem to be able to retain info from these books. I really love EG, the way it's presented, and the simplified approach. Since Susan Wise Bauer recommend Rod & Staff as the best, would it be a big deal to start in R&S 6 Progressing with Courage next year? I just wonder if the drill in R&S would help him to retain info better. Since there's not much drill in EG, I think that's why he seems to be forgetting. Also, any thought on A Beka Language or BJU are welcome also, as I'm considering them as well. See, I think there's plenty of "drill" in EG, in the form of continuing to use and building on concepts already learned. How many levels of EG has your ds used? I don't even start grammar until my dc are 10 or 11. R&S is a more comphrehensive English than EG, which is only grammar (and punctuation and capitalization). R&S includes composition, using reference materials, public speaking, and more. I like R&S, but I prefer EG plus Writing Strands and/or other materials to cover things that EG does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 We have never done ALL of the drill in Rod & Staff. It is too much IMHO. I have never worked with Easy Grammar. I would like to say that the Rod & Staff 5th grade book is foundational. The 6th grade book is a big leap up! If you do decide too switch, start with the 5th grade book. I know this from experience:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah&emmasmommy Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 If you don't mind, I'm sorry, I'm not good with abbreviations. IMHO means what? And you think starting with the 5th grade book would be better than the 6th grade book?:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah&emmasmommy Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 And, Ellie, I do see what you mean by the drill you're talking about in EG. I do agree with you on that, I guess, maybe I'm not sure what to do with son who is not retaining info. Do we just recite grammar rules every day and memorize endless lists of prepositions, verbs and so on, so forth? What would suggest since you use EG with writing strands? (I also use Writing Strands, btw.):001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 And, Ellie, I do see what you mean by the drill you're talking about in EG. I do agree with you on that, I guess, maybe I'm not sure what to do with son who is not retaining info. Do we just recite grammar rules every day and memorize endless lists of prepositions, verbs and so on, so forth? What is it exactly that he's not retaining? I don't require these lists to be memorized at all (although they did memorize all the helping verbs a couple of years ago while they were "playing school"). But in English, any word can be almost any part of speech depending on sentence context - memorizing that a word "is" a certain part of speech can actually backfire. I want to make sure that they can recognize what a word is doing in the sentence - then the part of speech becomes obvious. They just had a cumulative review in EG6 where they wanted the kids to write out 50 prepositions. I had them write down whatever they could remember, then copy over the rest from the list to re-familiarize themselve with them. But they almost never miss a prepositional phrase - one dd says "I know one when I see one". LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I want to make sure that they can recognize what a word is doing in the sentence - then the part of speech becomes obvious. Bingo! Rod and Staff does this wonderfully. So does Hake Grammar and Composition. Have you looked into Hake at all? My ds (11) is using their gr 6 book this year and it explains each concept really really well. It's very incremental (like Saxon is for math) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah&emmasmommy Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 I suppose what I see him not retaining is grammar rules. Lately he's confusing prepositions with verbs! I don't get that. I'm thinking now that maybe we didn't spend enough time on memorization of prepositions and helping verbs. He sometimes struggles when there is a verb phrase such as "had been going". I wonder if it's that I'm not going through the lessons with him, and essentially not "teaching" him, as I've heard some people say kids can do it on their own. Maybe that's the issue? Or that combined with lack of memorization of grammar rules and prepositions. I will definitely have to do more of that daily. Is Hake a publisher or author? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in MO Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 If you don't mind, I'm sorry, I'm not good with abbreviations. IMHO means what? IMHO = In my humble opinion And you think starting with the 5th grade book would be better than the 6th grade book?:confused: Starting with the 5th grade book would be much better, especially if he is having problems retaining. There is a big leap up between the 5th and 6th grade books. Many people use R&S grammar a year behind. My ds has used R&S since 3rd grade, and we will probably repeat the 6th grade book next year for 7th. There's more grammar in the 6th grade book than most people have ever encountered, and I'd rather he have these concepts down before we move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I wonder if it's that I'm not going through the lessons with him, and essentially not "teaching" him, as I've heard some people say kids can do it on their own. Maybe that's the issue? My kids pick up grammar easily, but I still teach every single lesson - EG is not designed to be self-teaching. The teacher's manual has about a page or two per lesson written to the teacher with samples to be worked through with the student, explanations of how to present (and not present) a topic - but that's not in the student book, so the student wouldn't even have those explanations to read to himself. The instructions on the student page are very minimal. I also go over their mistakes with them the next day. Or that combined with lack of memorization of grammar rules and prepositions. I will definitely have to do more of that daily. I'm not sure what memorizing lists of words accomplishes as a goal in and of itself. For example, "in", "to" and "but" are on the list of prepostions to memorize. In the sentence "I am going in to the store," 'in' is an adverb. In the sentence "I want to buy that," 'to' is part of an infinitive verb. In the sentence "I like cats but not dogs," 'but' is a conjunction. "His" is a possessive pronoun. In the sentence "I liked his blue sweater." it's being used as an adjective. Many verb forms are routinely used as different parts of speech - present participles can function as nouns, past participles as adjectives. You need to be able to see what a word is doing in a sentence; if you just memorize lists you'll be lost. However - by grammar 'rules', do you mean something like "words that answer the questions 'which?' or 'what kind?' are adjectives"? I do think that knowing what parts of speech (or parts of a sentence) answer what kinds of questions in a sentence is very important to know and understand - spending more time on that kind of thing would probably be very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Is Hake a publisher or author? It's both: http://www.grammar.cc/?content=products One of the authors is married to a former writer for Saxon and it definitely has a Saxon-like style. You can see quite a bit of a sample on their site too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) We switched from Easy Grammar to Rod and Staff. I'd recommend going to R&S 5, though, not 6. Don't worry about levels--R&S 8 is the highest grammar kids need, and not many homeschoolers I know of use the 9 & 10 one. We started off with something SWB recommended in the first edition of WTM. However, the only thing dd ever had trouble with was prepositions. Easy Grammar was perfect for her because she was able to learn them first. We switched to R&S for the diagramming, in part. Each level has a definite jump in difficulty, and in the end I was glad that dd chose to go to R&S 5, even though she'd done Easy Grammar 5/6. It didn't really challenge her, but allowed her to become familiar with the different format. It is hard enough for a gr. 6 class credit. My second dd has just started R&S 6, so you could say we've been happy with it. Grammar doesn't always stick as easily for my second, but my first learns it by reading it, so my perspective is skewed. I actually have to teach my second one many times, which is very normal. My ds will need more teaching because he's definitely an auditory learner. My ds is doing Easy Grammar because we already have it, but he'll switch to R&S as soon as he's ready for R&S 5. I don't think we need to go buy a new program because he had a good grounding in FFL 1 & 2. Edited March 28, 2009 by Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah&emmasmommy Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 This is all very helpful. Thanks so much for your input. I have a 5 year old running around here too, and I tend to skip some of the reading that I should be doing. I will definitely pay more attention to those teacher pages you talk about, because I do tend to skip over those. I'm sure that make a difference, wouldn't it?;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) We've used both. R&S is a far better match for our family and we won't be buying EG again. There is plenty of oral review and written review in R&S, even more written if you get the workpages too. The TE says to choose between which of the review forms is best for you and don't worry about doing all of them. :) We do the oral first, then I gauge how much review I think ds needs before deciding how much more to do. If he's aced it we just move on, if he could use a smidgeon more we do the written review in the textbook orally. If I think he needs it for that concept I'll assign the written work to actually be written, or give him the workpage (or both). On days I need him to work more independent he'll go straight to the written practice from the textbook. Reasons ds and/or I like R&S best: -Easier for both of us. It doesn't seem like so much work to get it done. -Easy to pick up and go, with no more prep work on my part than skimming my section while he's finding his page. -Very easy to move ahead or slow down in without putting a kink in the book layout. Since it's a nonconsumable, if you need even more review you can just go back and do something again. -TE is well laid out. There's a reduced image of his page with the answers filled in with a different color text, on each of my pages. The info for the page he's on is right beside or under it so I'm not flipping back and forth. -The sentences used for a grammar exercise tell a story as you go through them. The sentences aren't as dry as the average boring textbook sentences. -Ds says the R&S textook is more inviting than the big EG book full of "just work." -Low cost consumable reload for younger siblings. -For my youngers who will come out of FLL 4, the teaching style of R&S will be a MUCH better match than EG. We love SWB's style for grammar teaching, R&S continued that while EG made it a chore for my ds. If you're unsure of where to place your dc in R&S call and ask for a free sample of both grades five and six. Edited March 28, 2009 by SilverMoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I suppose what I see him not retaining is grammar rules. Lately he's confusing prepositions with verbs! I don't get that. I'm thinking now that maybe we didn't spend enough time on memorization of prepositions and helping verbs. He sometimes struggles when there is a verb phrase such as "had been going". I wonder if it's that I'm not going through the lessons with him, and essentially not "teaching" him, as I've heard some people say kids can do it on their own. Maybe that's the issue? Or that combined with lack of memorization of grammar rules and prepositions. I will definitely have to do more of that daily. Is Hake a publisher or author? Girlfriend, you need to *not* let him do it himself. You and he go over the instruction for that page, he does the work (you shouldn't have to sit with him while he does it), *you* correct it right then and do any remediation before he does the next page. I'm not sure which grammar "rules" you are referring to, but as far as prepositions, it would be good to *mostly* memorize them, and then print a copy of that page to use as a crutch. Probably you should go over the verb tenses and stuff, also. R&S's grammar made more sense to *me* after dd and I had completed EG. But as I said, R&S does much more than EG, so it's almost not a fair comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah&emmasmommy Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Girlfriend, you need to *not* let him do it himself. You and he go over the instruction for that page, he does the work (you shouldn't have to sit with him while he does it), *you* correct it right then and do any remediation before he does the next page. Yes ma'am!! Sounds like the right thing to do. Mostly he gets it right, I check his work and we go over it, and I make him correct his mistakes. It sounds like we really need to just continue memorizing prepositions and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulcindy Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 If you do not want diagramming, stay with EG. If you want a TON of diagramming, I would go with R+S. I like R+S, but hate the diagramming. So we are switching. I purchased Rules of the Game by EPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Girlfriend, you need to *not* let him do it himself. You and he go over the instruction for that page, he does the work (you shouldn't have to sit with him while he does it), *you* correct it right then and do any remediation before he does the next page. I'm not sure which grammar "rules" you are referring to, but as far as prepositions, it would be good to *mostly* memorize them, and then print a copy of that page to use as a crutch. Probably you should go over the verb tenses and stuff, also. R&S's grammar made more sense to *me* after dd and I had completed EG. But as I said, R&S does much more than EG, so it's almost not a fair comparison. My ds has memorized the entire list of prepositions, and was a master at doing the phrases. Nevertheless, sometimes he's thought that they are adjectives lately. Not that we haven't taught him the difference, but he'd rather be playing than doing grammar. Or reading. Or folding paper airplanes. So I don't know if it's the program or his lack of interest. I do like R&S, but don't see a need, in our case, to buy it for earlier grades than what we have when we already have something my dd's were able to learn from. However, I don't see a need for serious grammar study at 8 yo, which is my ds's age, and do it more for the exposure to it. Some things, such as capitalization and punctuation, he has to know, but he has a good grasp of which tenses to use and irregular verbs already. My eldest likes diagramming, my second loathes it. I never learned it, but once someone on the old boards was able to give me logical reasons for diagramming, I was sold on it. Perhaps not for everyone, but for my dd's for sure. I'm making my second dd do it, because she can really see how things work. Not sure what I'll do with ds, since he has a whole different learning style, but it will be with R&S even if we don't do as much diagramming. There are only so many subjects I can afford to switch for him financially, and he can learn most subjects with what we already have, thankfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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