Seeking advice from mature Christian women

[katemary63]

No offense to non-Christians, this is just the kind of advice that *I* need.

Background: I was abused by my biological father all my life. No pity, please, I am over it. I confronted him at age 25, held him accountable, set boundaries and with the help of my true and perfect Father, healed and moved on. I have a great life and don't give "my past" a second thought.

My father has apologized, many, many times. He claims he is now a Christian. He has literally begged my forgiveness. I have forgiven him and made many attempts over the years to re-establish some sort of relationship with him. However, he just doesn't respect boundaries and eventually, I came to understand that although he may feel bad as he claims, he just doesn't "get it" and never will. I personally believe he would fit the clinical diagnosis for narcissistic personality disorder and that there is no possibility of a healthy relationship with him, so many years ago, I essentially cut off contact with him. He does have a young son ( age 17) , however, with his second wife and I have always sent my half brother birthday and Christmas gifts and letters. His wife send us a Christmas card also, so there has been some correspondence going on between his house and mine over the years.

My father lives in another state which is a good thing. I haven't seen him in many years. However, a couple of years ago, not sure exactly how it started, he began to email me with questions about my kids. Simple stuff like how are they doing. So, just to appease a pitiful old man and since he is far away and can't effect me, I responded to his emails. Nothing detailed or personal, just quick, simple answers to his questions, once every couple of months. He is old (71), miserable (I hear from my brother.) and pitiful. I did it for him. The communication is of no interest to me what-so-ever. Until now, he has made no attempt to push it any further.

Well, here's my question, finally. The other day, he called me. Luckily, I didn't get the call or the message, but he mentioned in an email that he had tried to call me. Ahhh......now what??? I have no desire to resume actual communications with him. I do not want to talk to him. I was answering his occasional email out of pity. I am not afraid or angry...I just have no room in my life for what he has to offer. No desire what-so-ever. BTDT, tried it and it didn't work. Now I regret ever emailing him back and am not sure where to go from here. I truly do not want to cause the man any emotional pain. ( he claims to be in quite a bit from what I hear.) I don't want to be cruel or mean. If he has found the Lord for real, I am happy for him. I just don't want things to go ANY FURTHER then an occasional email, and that, only for his sake.

What should I do? What should I say? How do I be nice and still make it clear that he is not to call me? Any advice?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think a simple, "I prefer that we keep our communication to e-mail" should suffice. If he crosses that boundary, you might need to revise it to "I insist that we keep our communication to e-mail". If you need a consequence for that boundary then I would suggest saying "If you do not keep our communication to e-mail then I will cut off all communication."

 

I think that Biblically you have dealt with everything very well. You have gone to your Heavenly Father for healing of these past hurts. You have forgiven your human father. You have honored him by giving him occasional updates of your family. And you have protected yourself and your family by setting up boundaries for yourself as to how and how often you would communicate with him. Now you need to continue to protect yourself and your family by enforcing those communication boundaries.

 

If he tries to force his way beyond the boundaries you have set, you need to be able to be firm in enforcing the consequences. And you need to be straight in your head that he's the one making the choice to either respect the boundary or to try to push past it. You may need to get an unlisted number in addition to enforcing any consequences. What if one of your children answered the phone when he called?

 

Please don't give in to any feelings of guilt over his choices.

[angieathome]

I know your heart must be torn because of your desire to please the Lord by properly respecting your father. I am hearing that you do show respect to him by the kindnesses you show his wife and children, and yes, the occasional email. While I have not been in your situation, I was faced with a neighbor who was a convicted sex offender (he offended with young girls & I had 2 young daughters) and newly professed Christian. I told him that I was happy for his new-found faith and that he had found the one true answer to all of life's problems. But I felt that Satan tends to tempt us in our areas of weakness and that I needed to keep a safe distance in order to protect my children. In your case, you need distance for your own emotional protection. Some may suggest that you speak to him about your need for this safe distance, but I am thinking from your description (narcissistic) that he will not understand. There are real and lasting consequences for the kind of damage he caused you. When he gets more mature as a Christian, he will understand that true repentance would focus on you and your emotional health, not more focus on his needs. So, I think you have already done an admirable job of being polite and respectful. Can you keep it up? Are you in a position to get an answering machine so you can screen his calls? My advice would be to keep answering his emails, but don't be in a rush about it. You don't even need to return phone messages. His entreaties do not obligate you at all. Just continue being cordial. Are you concerned that one of your children will answer a call? Do they have any sort of knowledge of your father or of your past? Will they understand that he is not a safe person if you tell them that is why you are limiting contact? I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds in giving this feedback since I have never been in a situation like yours. This is just what I would tell my best friend if she asked. I will pray for you that God will settle this in your mind and heart so you can be at peace. I praise God that he has already healed you. And I pray that your father will grow in the knowledge and love of the Lord. May God go with you as you approach this difficult situation.

[WTMCassandra]

What should I do? What should I say? How do I be nice and still make it clear that he is not to call me? Any advice?

 

(((KateMary)))

 

Just because someone claims to be a Christian does NOT mean that their mind is renewed.

 

Narcissists are CLASSIC for pushing boundaries, slowly encroaching, like the camel and tent syndrome. They only respond to ROCK-SOLID boundaries. They are like two year-olds, continually pushing the limits, except they don't grow up.

 

I highly recommend that you send him a firm email saying that email is the only form of communication you will permit. You could say that if the calls or pushes for more contact continue that the emails will stop also. Be prepared to use the broken-record technique, as I suspect there will be repeated push-backs against the boundary. And I mean repeated many times.

 

Being a Christian does NOT mean that you have to appease boundary-pushers. I highly recommend the book Fool-Proofing Your Life by Jan Silvious for a Christian perspective on dealing with seriously disordered people who claim to be Christians.

 

I also highly recommend that you reconsider your relationship with your brother. If you don't want to hear about your father's struggles, you are not obligated to have to hear about them. If your brother really cares about you, he will not try to guilt-trip you into more contact with your father by repeatedly reporting how miserable your father is. Narcissists are very skilled at appearing pitiful and enlisting people to guilt-trip their targets. Your father may not even be consciously doing this, but if your father is narcissistic, and because he molested you, it is likely that your whole family system is seriously messed up, including sibling relationships. You have the right to ask your brother not to talk to you about your father if you want. It doesn't mean you don't care about him or are not a real Christian.

 

Honestly, you do not have to be "nice." The Bible talks a lot about the seriousness of sin and the seriousness of staying away from it. Family members do NOT get a pass for behaving abusively. And I consider pushing contact on you abusive due to the history. Your father should be ALL about giving you space if he was really, truly heart-changed in this arena. But he's not. It's still all about him. It is not your job to appease him. And even if you did, do you really think it would alleviate his true pain? I suspect not. And believe it or not, it is common for Narcissists to "use" Christianity to further their own ends.

 

Christianity does NOT equal the "cult of nice." It really doesn't.

 

Please give yourself permission to not allow any contact that you are not comfortable with. I don't believe God or the Bible requires it of you. I truly don't. You are God's princess and worthy of being treated with respect, including for your boundaries. It's time to discern between answering a fool according to his folly and not answering a fool lest he despise you. There's a time and a place for each.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. I happen to have strong feelings on this subject. I'm tired of Christians being guilted into allowing people to continually abuse them because they are "family." I think you are terrific and strong for having built yourself a new life and I'm angry with people who would like to encroach upon it. I'm not angry with you, and I would respect your decision fully, no matter if I liked it or not. ; ) I just think you deserve better than having to put up with your father's calls.

 

And please keep in mind that I am a very conservative Christian who believes in a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. And I am very, very serious about trying to live my life in a way that is pleasing to God. I falter, of course, but I am continually working on it.

Edited March 28, 2009 by WTMCassandra

[usetoschool]

Having BTDT, maybe I can list a few things that helped me straighten out my thinking.

 

Think about how much just the thought of phone calls is upsetting you. I know that the Savior heals hearts and helps us really truly move on but shadows of the memories and feelings still remain, especially if it happened as a child, and things like this just dredge it up. If you want peace you can't toy with this. If he is a narcissist he will feed on your weakness, use you up and throw you away. You must draw a boundary and stick to it. How he feels and responds to your legitimate feelings is his choice. We all have freedom to choose how we feel. If you are polite and respectful and treat him as a valid human being and he reacts negatively, that is HIS choice and not your fault. Narcissists are masters of manipulating the situation to make it look like you have done something wrong. Send an email explaining that you feel comfortable with the situation the way it is (if you do), occaisional email contact only. You are saying nothing about him, only expressing your feelings. He can respect that or not, but either way, it is his decision to make. You have done nothing wrong. Don't threaten or warn or be drawn in to an argument, just state your feelings and move on. If he ramps it up you can cross that bridge with a stronger response when you come to it.

 

I think people sometimes confuse forgiveness with trust and love and respect. Forgiveness is about you acknowledging that judgment is the Lord's. It is not about having to have a relationship with the person. Trust and respect have to be earned by him and have nothing to do with you forgiving him and letting go of that burden. When he has truly repented he will do everything he can to earn your trust and respect, no matter what that takes. All of the begging and whining are about him, which just proves that it is still all about him, as usual with a narcissist.

 

If he truly has narcissistic personality disorder, he won't and can't change according to everything I have read. One small religious woman professor who researched this believes and wrote a paper on the idea that maybe it is a choice to be evil, because God cannot take away your free will, but even she says that some are so far down the road, the self focus is so ingrained that they really can't change. In order to see the need for the atonement you have to recognize you are wrong - something that is to painful for a narcissist to do. And that pain is part of what keeps a narcissist who he is, the recognition of their failed self is just more pain than they can deal with. If he is feeling genuine pain, then maybe there is hope for him...but, again, that is up to him to figure out.

 

You are responsible for your own family, for protecting them, not just physically but emotionally also. Even if he is no physical danger to them, the emotional baggage he brings out in you and your worry about their emotional well being if he is around, is no way to raise a healthy well adjusted family. It is really hard to shut off your heart to someone, and when it is a parent, no matter how much they have hurt us, somehow we still want to find room for them. God gave us those feelings I think and put us in families and in normal situations they serve to bind us together but this is not a normal situation and it is hard to overcome those natural inclinations. Being a good earthly daughter does not mean being a doormat. You are a daughter of God first and foremost and just as important as your dad. Your rights and feelings are just as important and valid as his.

 

Congratulations on moving on and creating a new life for yourself and raising a great family. It isn't easy and the past does once in awhile come back and bite us on the fanny unfortunately. I am sure you know this all already, but hopefully hearing it from others will strengthen your resolve to stand tall and do what is best. Be your own best self and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe some day the Lord will prompt you that it is time to trust your dad and let him in, who knows (well He does...:)).

[Kim in SouthGa]

I think you should tell him that you prefer to stick to email. Explain that since he is a Christian now, he must understand the awesome responsibility of raising little ones. Tell him you could never forgive yourself if he had a temporary slip and hurt one of your kids.

I understand your feelings. My father was an alcoholic and left us when I was six. He pretty much ignored me, even when my mom committed suicide when I was 15, until he was diagnosed with cancer. By that time I really had no desire to have any relationship with him. I had forgiven him, was not angry, just did not have the energy or the desire to go there. Same thing with my sister. Glory to God that we have a Heavenly Father who will never leave us or forsake us!

:grouphug:

[shanvan]

(((KateMary)))

 

Just because someone claims to be a Christian does NOT mean that their mind is renewed.

 

 

Being a Christian does NOT mean that you have to appease boundary-pushers. I highly recommend the book Fool-Proofing Your Life by Jan Silvious for a Christian perspective on dealing with seriously disordered people who claim to be Christians.

 

 

Honestly, you do not have to be "nice." The Bible talks a lot about the seriousness of sin and the seriousness of staying away from it. Family members do NOT get a pass for behaving abusively. And I consider pushing contact on you abusive due to the history. Your father should be ALL about giving you space if he was really, truly heart-changed in this arena. But he's not. It's still all about him. It is not your job to appease him. And even if you did, do you really think it would alleviate his true pain? I suspect not. And believe it or not, it is common for Narcissists to "use" Christianity to further their own ends.

 

Christianity does NOT equal the "cult of nice." It really doesn't.

 

Please give yourself permission to not allow any contact that you are not comfortable with. I don't believe God or the Bible requires it of you. I truly don't. You are God's princess and worthy of being treated with respect, including for your boundaries. It's time to discern between answering a fool according to his folly and not answering a fool lest he despise you. There's a time and a place for each.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. I happen to have strong feelings on this subject. I'm tired of Christians being guilted into allowing people to continually abuse them because they are "family." I think you are terrific and strong for having built yourself a new life and I'm angry with people who would like to encroach upon it. I'm not angry with you, and I would respect your decision fully, no matter if I liked it or not. ; ) I just think you deserve better than having to put up with your father's calls.

 

And please keep in mind that I am a very conservative Christian who believes in a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. And I am very, very serious about trying to live my life in a way that is pleasing to God. I falter, of course, but I am continually working on it.

 

:iagree: This is like a breath of fresh air to me! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! How come I don't hear this from very many Christians? I have tried to explain this concept to many Christian friends and boy have I been blasted for it!

 

KateMary, I am in a similar situation with my own father--except he was not abusive, he simply abandonded me. I looked him up (opening a real can of worms) in my late 20's and ever since then he seems to feel that he is completely absolved from all guilt of his action. Never apologized for leaving me in a horrible situation. Even told me about all the terrible things he thought might have been happening to me as a child. (how about that for narcissim?) He has continued to abandon me in various situations since I looked him up, and has zero interest in his grandchildren. He will somewhat listen to me if I talk about them, but never asks about them or sends them cards, notes or any kind of acknowledgement.

 

Like you, I have healed with the help of my true heavenly Father and I don't want my earthly father much involved in my life. Fortunately for me he lives across the ocean so there isn't much opportunity to see him.

 

I have come to realize that God was watching over me by keeping that man out of my life as I was growing up. As a teenager he placed a wonderful Christian man in my life who became like a father to me and is like a grandfather to my children. God is so good! I have come to appreciate my mother and her efforts in raising her children more.

 

I have moments of panic whenever my dad mentions the possibility of moving back to the states. I agree with the all the other posters here that you have done what you need to do, and need not feel guilt. Be firm and keep the relationship to e mails.

 

Shannon

 

:grouphug:

[G5052]

When I was growing up my mother was abusive and utterly selfish, and even in adulthood she has cut me off I don't how many times for doing things she disagreed with or for questioning her opinions. My dad enabled that, so even though I was closer to him, I still fault him for not standing up to her when we were involved. DH has never liked her, and was supportive of keeping some distance there, which hasn't been a problem because we live many states away. Frankly if my sibling and I hadn't come to Christ in our teens, we would have ended up who-know-where.

 

And I've always taken criticism from some Christians for the distance we maintain. I think a lot of it being just plain naive, they've never dealt with a toxic family member, so they think you can just be nice to someone and it will all work out. When my mom is crossed, she's verbally toxic and quite capable of violence, and unfortunately that has become worse as she's aged and had multiple strokes. I had to go to DMV over her driving and she found out, and we had to break all contact for a year. Then I recently pressed her some over the phone over her ability to care for my dad, and it all started again. She even told an acquaintance that she would kill me if I showed up there. Thankfuly my dad is now in a nursing home after I made a lot of phone calls and got the attention of his doctor through a family friend (ah, medical privacy laws!). And for some reason, some Christians think I should go visit...

 

Personally, I think that honoring your parents means respecting them in terms of being humane and caring for their physical well-being if it's within your capability, but that doesn't require having a buddy-buddy relationship with them. A few people do understand that. Two older friends have actually advised me not to go out there unless I have to, and when I do, I won't stay in their town so it's hard for my mom to get to me. Sad, isn't it?

[Free Indeed]

You have received very good advice here. I was in the same situation, but with my mom, and she died a few years ago. Anyways- I agree with all the other posters, and do not think I could add anything. I just wanted to agree. :iagree:

[Emilylou]

I didn't read all the other posts on this thread but this is EXCELLENT Christian advice.

 

I think a simple, "I prefer that we keep our communication to e-mail" should suffice. If he crosses that boundary, you might need to revise it to "I insist that we keep our communication to e-mail". If you need a consequence for that boundary then I would suggest saying "If you do not keep our communication to e-mail then I will cut off all communication."

 

I think that Biblically you have dealt with everything very well. You have gone to your Heavenly Father for healing of these past hurts. You have forgiven your human father. You have honored him by giving him occasional updates of your family. And you have protected yourself and your family by setting up boundaries for yourself as to how and how often you would communicate with him. Now you need to continue to protect yourself and your family by enforcing those communication boundaries.

 

If he tries to force his way beyond the boundaries you have set, you need to be able to be firm in enforcing the consequences. And you need to be straight in your head that he's the one making the choice to either respect the boundary or to try to push past it. You may need to get an unlisted number in addition to enforcing any consequences. What if one of your children answered the phone when he called?

 

Please don't give in to any feelings of guilt over his choices.

[Danestress]

"Please don't call me. I am more comfortable communicating by email." Period. No explanations or apologies. You don't owe him either. Just because someone found the Lord doesn't mean they get to be in your life.

 

The wages of sin are death. This relationship is pretty much dead. It's very sad, and I am sure he is filled with regret, but sometimes things that have been injured can't be made new in this life. Your relationship with him is broken because he broke it. Out of pity, you keep him posted on the children. That's gracious plenty.

[Colleen]

"Please don't call me. I am more comfortable communicating by email." Period. No explanations or apologies. You don't owe him either. Just because someone found the Lord doesn't mean they get to be in your life.

 

The wages of sin are death. This relationship is pretty much dead. It's very sad, and I am sure he is filled with regret, but sometimes things that have been injured can't be made new in this life. Your relationship with him is broken because he broke it.

 

Spot on. The only change I'd make to this would be omitting the word "please" at the front of the imperative statement. There is nothing rude about a point-blank "Don't call me" ~ and as WTMCassandra so wisely pointed out, you don't have to be "nice". I think, perhaps, your desire to "be nice" reflects a desire to prove that you truly have forgiven, don't hold a grudge, etc.

 

Often when people have been abused, they want to prove ~ to themselves as much as anyone else ~ that they can forgive and move past it while still being nice and not having a chip on their shoulder. In doing so, they end up allowing the abuser (or those who have connections with the abuser) to push boundaries.

 

I'm speaking of my own experience as well as what I've heard others say. As an adolescent, I was molested for several years by my sister's husband. My family handled it by not handling it, and over the years, I went through varying degrees of trying to be comfortable in his presence and so on. He says he is a Christian, and he did ask my forgiveness. Like you, I've forgiven and dealt with it and I'm not angry or throwing pity parties. But I don't want to have contact with this man. As a result, I have broken relationship with my sister (who is still married to him) and their children ~ and the strain bleeds into our entire extended family.

 

Last year, for example, my dad wanted to host a 75th birthday party for my mom. He wanted the entire family to be there. We haven't all been together in at least 10 years because my sister won't attend family functions without her husband, and one of my brothers and I won't be around her husband. So my dad, on my mother's behalf, tried to organize this birthday party and initially I said I'd go along with it. I wanted to "be nice". I didn't want to be seen as the selfish one who couldn't just set aside my preferences for the sake of an a woman turning 75. Ultimately, though, I decided (after soliciting advice here, just like you're doing) that I simply couldn't alter my boundaries. The reality is that this man did damage that has consequences.

 

Oops. Didn't mean to go on and on about my story. :grouphug: to you, and be strong as you make it clear to your dad that you will not have contact beyond email. (For that matter, if I were you, I'd back away from the email, too.) Best to you.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Colleen

[Merry]

reminded by threads like this, then I can be better able to understand a little of where he's coming from. He had a horrible childhood of being abused at the school he used to board at and it still affects him even at age 66 when it comes to dealing with other people in the same category of those who abused him when he was little. I think the damage caused is permanent even though a person may be a growing and strong Christian. It's kind of like being an alcoholic and not being able to handle alcohol.

[Laurie4b]

I think you've gotten good advice, so I would just add one thing. If he is a Christian, he, too, needs to learn to depend on his Heavenly Father to meet his needs. Had he not sinned in the way he did, he would have more family contact, etc. Now he doesn't. However, God can meet his needs for intimacy in their relationship. So you are not "on the hook" for meeting those needs at all. I think the emails are kind and since you are able to do those, then it's fine to keep them up. But to refuse the phone contact is to put him in a position to depend on God to meet needs that he wants you to meet. That could end up being a gift to him.

[Storm Bay]

There's a book called Boundaries you may wish to read, by Townsend and another author.

 

We all need boundaries, and this includes you. I have boundaries with a family member due to verbal and emotional abuse. I find that as long as my husband is there, things are fine. This may not work in your situation, of course, but is what works in mine. The one time I broke my boundary and visited with just my children, things did not go well. That's the last time I do that.

 

Forgiving and moving on often means moving on. I think that the emails are fine. He may love you in his own way, but not with the love of God. I agree with the poster about the lack of renewed mind. He evidently has not cast down his strongholds, either, which is part of that. It can take years and years for someone to be delivered from that, but they have to 1. truly realize thy have a problem and 2. work very hard at it.

 

However, given how things have gone, I think you're wise to keep it to emails. In a situation like this, I'd have to hear directly from God to change what I was doing. Not from other people, however well meaning. Not from other family members, however well meaning. Not from my wonderful dh, who has never seen this family member do this to me. I do listen to my dh many times, particularly when he's right and I'm not:). But when I know what's right, that's different.

[cathmom]

I have a family member who also fits the NPD description. I will not let her back into my life until and unless I see evidence of change. She cannot be trusted with my children. So I sympathize greatly. She has sent me letters (after choosing to walk out of my life) telling me how much she "misses" me. The last time I talked her, she told me she didn't like how I handled the birth of my twins, because I didn't notify her right away, even though she hadn't spoken to me in almost a year.

[katemary63]

Oh my Lord, You guys are so awesome. You have all said what I needed to hear....what I wanted to hear. I KNOW all this in my heart, but the little feelings of guilt that just don't really belong there had begun to creep in. I picture him as some old, pitiful man and that makes me feel like maybe I have some responsibility to him, but I know I don't. I truly have forgiven him and wish him no ill. In fact, I hope he spends eternity in paradise. However, I agree with one poster who said that unfortunately, this relationship is dead and that is his doing, not mine.

 

I think I had begun to waver because of my brother and sister. We are semi-close, we have discussed the past and tried to deal with our dysfunction with each other based on the past ( years ago). We all get along well now and I don't care to disrupt that. However, they have chosen to "deal" with our father by not dealing with him. They acknowledge his dysfunction, his mental issues, (both agree with the narcissism diagnosis) , his inability to have real relationships, but they choose to communicate with him and use the adage "he's our father" to explain it. They visit him in his home, hug him when they see him and email with him. I think I have let these facts "pull" me in a wrong direction and I so appreciate you all straightening me out.

 

BTW: My siblings don't criticize me for NOT seeing our father and they don't try to encourage me to see or talk to him. But they did years ago. They never put limits on him, even when all this was fresh. I drew my lines in the sand from the first day I acknowledged within myself what had happened. (about age 25). Everyone said, "He's your FATHER, how can you do that to him? Stupid. I was criticized by many "Christians" for cutting off relationship with him back then. I didn't listen to it, but it did hurt.

 

Another thought that has been creeping in is that he can't really emotionally hurt me anymore. Really, his call wouldn't have upset me as much as annoyed me. I am so over him. So I was wrongly thinking along the lines of, "Well, it doesn't hurt ME anymore and it makes him feel better and he is old and pitiful, so why not let him talk to me once in a while, for his sake." Now that I spell it out in words, it sounds dumb!

 

It's true - I WANT to do the CHRISTIAN thing and I guess this thread was an attempt to confirm within myself that I am. Thank you all so much.

 

FYI: He has not had contact with my children since I was 25 years old and confronted him on the abuse. He has only seen my youngest 2 girls once at my sister's second wedding. A situation similar to one of the posters. I was torn between bringing my family around him and being there for my sister. It went fine. The kids were confused though because he kept saying, "I'm your GRANDFATHER." They were like..huh?

 

The older three have been told everything about my past. Of course, I spared the gory details, but they know the gist of it and have no desire to communicate with him. They tell me they will not even attend his funeral. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

Thanks again for everything ladies, you are awesome and wise in the Lord.

 

Sincerely, Lisa

Edited March 28, 2009 by katemary63

[katemary63]

I think you've gotten good advice, so I would just add one thing. If he is a Christian, he, too, needs to learn to depend on his Heavenly Father to meet his needs. Had he not sinned in the way he did, he would have more family contact, etc. Now he doesn't. However, God can meet his needs for intimacy in their relationship. So you are not "on the hook" for meeting those needs at all. I think the emails are kind and since you are able to do those, then it's fine to keep them up. But to refuse the phone contact is to put him in a position to depend on God to meet needs that he wants you to meet. That could end up being a gift to him.

 

Wow, just...wow. All the advice has been great and I thank you all. But this....this is worth it's weight in gold. It is so true, I don't know why I never thought this for myself. Thank you so very much.

[katemary63]

reminded by threads like this, then I can be better able to understand a little of where he's coming from. He had a horrible childhood of being abused at the school he used to board at and it still affects him even at age 66 when it comes to dealing with other people in the same category of those who abused him when he was little. I think the damage caused is permanent even though a person may be a growing and strong Christian. It's kind of like being an alcoholic and not being able to handle alcohol.

 

Merry, I'm so sorry for your husband. I think men tend to build thicker walls of protection then women do. ( in general) and it is harder for them to let others in to help in the healing process. It just makes me sick what evil people do to children. It effects them for life and thier family for generations. You are wonderful for trying to understand his issues.

[Guest janainaz]

Having BTDT, maybe I can list a few things that helped me straighten out my thinking.

 

Think about how much just the thought of phone calls is upsetting you. I know that the Savior heals hearts and helps us really truly move on but shadows of the memories and feelings still remain, especially if it happened as a child, and things like this just dredge it up. If you want peace you can't toy with this. If he is a narcissist he will feed on your weakness, use you up and throw you away. You must draw a boundary and stick to it. How he feels and responds to your legitimate feelings is his choice. We all have freedom to choose how we feel. If you are polite and respectful and treat him as a valid human being and he reacts negatively, that is HIS choice and not your fault. Narcissists are masters of manipulating the situation to make it look like you have done something wrong. Send an email explaining that you feel comfortable with the situation the way it is (if you do), occaisional email contact only. You are saying nothing about him, only expressing your feelings. He can respect that or not, but either way, it is his decision to make. You have done nothing wrong. Don't threaten or warn or be drawn in to an argument, just state your feelings and move on. If he ramps it up you can cross that bridge with a stronger response when you come to it.

 

I think people sometimes confuse forgiveness with trust and love and respect. Forgiveness is about you acknowledging that judgment is the Lord's. It is not about having to have a relationship with the person. Trust and respect have to be earned by him and have nothing to do with you forgiving him and letting go of that burden. When he has truly repented he will do everything he can to earn your trust and respect, no matter what that takes. All of the begging and whining are about him, which just proves that it is still all about him, as usual with a narcissist.

 

If he truly has narcissistic personality disorder, he won't and can't change according to everything I have read. One small religious woman professor who researched this believes and wrote a paper on the idea that maybe it is a choice to be evil, because God cannot take away your free will, but even she says that some are so far down the road, the self focus is so ingrained that they really can't change. In order to see the need for the atonement you have to recognize you are wrong - something that is to painful for a narcissist to do. And that pain is part of what keeps a narcissist who he is, the recognition of their failed self is just more pain than they can deal with. If he is feeling genuine pain, then maybe there is hope for him...but, again, that is up to him to figure out.

 

You are responsible for your own family, for protecting them, not just physically but emotionally also. Even if he is no physical danger to them, the emotional baggage he brings out in you and your worry about their emotional well being if he is around, is no way to raise a healthy well adjusted family. It is really hard to shut off your heart to someone, and when it is a parent, no matter how much they have hurt us, somehow we still want to find room for them. God gave us those feelings I think and put us in families and in normal situations they serve to bind us together but this is not a normal situation and it is hard to overcome those natural inclinations. Being a good earthly daughter does not mean being a doormat. You are a daughter of God first and foremost and just as important as your dad. Your rights and feelings are just as important and valid as his.

 

Congratulations on moving on and creating a new life for yourself and raising a great family. It isn't easy and the past does once in awhile come back and bite us on the fanny unfortunately. I am sure you know this all already, but hopefully hearing it from others will strengthen your resolve to stand tall and do what is best. Be your own best self and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe some day the Lord will prompt you that it is time to trust your dad and let him in, who knows (well He does...:)).

 

I agree with what she said. I also think a truly changed father would be really sensitive to your feelings and would be hesitant to cause you more pain. You've forgiven him and from there you have to trust your heart on where that relationship goes. It says a lot that you have had enough forgiveness to talk to him. Years ago I had to close the door on my own mother - she's got a classic Narcissist personality, so much so that her presence in my life makes me emotionally, mentally and physically ill. I felt that because I was a Christian I should have more love and tolerance for her. When I looked at it from the perspective of a parent of my own sons, I would not want them to continue in a relationship that brings only pain. I don't see God as any different as a parent. You'll know in your heart when and if God is prompting you to open the door further.