Math - Help me think through my priorities, please!

[JenniferB]

Hive mind, please help!

 

I have finally found a groove with language arts (SWR and R&S English - yeah!), now I need help with math!

 

Please help me think through my priorities and choose the right program. Cost is not a problem, because I'm going to sell some of my "failed" attempts, and I should have enough to buy something new or used with that money.

 

We've used Math-U-See, Singapore, Rod & Staff, and I just recently purchased RightStart.

 

I have the wonderful opportunity to start out afresh with my 5yo, 4yo, and upcoming 1yo. I want to give them a solid foundation in math. My priorities are:

 

Solid foundation in the basics

 

• Teaching the children to easily and quickly recall their math facts so they won't be a stumbling block for higher math
  
• Besides the 4 basic operations, also proficiency in the other "math" things like time, money, measurements, etc. etc.
  
• Something that will get done 5 days per week, without fail (within reason of course) - Not too teacher intensive, not too many teacher's manuals, not too many manipulatives
  
  • Workbooky OK
    
  • Fun - not necessary
    
  • Games - not necessary
    
  • Interesting pictures - not necessary
    
  • Open & Go - A MUST! Scripted, preferred.
    
  • Spiral approach, or something with a lot of review & drill!
    

   

   

- Saxon's out, there's too many items involved and I get overwhelmed

- Math-U-See is out, I've been there, done that, I don't like the mastery approach

- Singapore is out, I'm not happy with the Home Instructor's Guide - too confusing for me to easily "open-go" implement. Too many manipulatives to make.

- RightStart - I'm considering selling this, as I've given it a trial run, and I'm already stuck on lesson 10 or so with having to "make" manipulatives and "assemble" games, and figure them out, etc. I've skipped math for 2 weeks now thinking I'll "put them together soon", but I haven't.

 

Does anyone have the "perfect" solution for me with all these things in mind? :D Please, please, please! Can you tell I really want your advice?

[langfam]

Sounds like MCP Math. Lots of folks use it with success, I understand.

 

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/curriculum_reviews/modern-curriculum-press.php

 

http://www.exodusbooks.com/category.aspx?id=2430

 

If you're not opposed to Catholic materials. Mathematics for Young Catholics is good, I hear.

http://www.setonbooks.com/viewone.php?ToView=P-MA03-15&Zoomin=1

Edited February 5, 2009 by langfam

[Guest]

I'm not here to help, but to ask....you mentioned you've used R&S - what didn't you like about that?

[JenniferB]

I use R&S with my 10yo dd (grade 4). I love it! But, since I'm starting all over from scratch with my 5yo I want to see what all my options are with those priorities. I think I will use R&S if that seems the best of all the choices.

[Karen in CO]

I used BJU with my dd when she was getting over her mom-induced math crises. It is open and go. It has built in review. I didn't use the teacher's guide with her for the 2nd grade book although I bought it. I focuses on one topic per chapter, but has review problems on most sheets and has chapter reviews. It covers all the mathy things. You can buy a book with paper punch out manipulatives if you want to - things like paper money and clocks and rulers and such.

 

I have RS A for my youngest but it isn't getting done so I got the BJU K - it gets done everyday while her sister is doing her math. In my perfect homeschool, we will be doing RS A, but until then she does BJU and if Singapore ever quits working for the older one we are back to BJU.

[Ummto4]

Math Mammoth light blue series (i.e. the graded worktext).

-No frills, open and go, self-explanatory. No prep. Manipulative/games not needed although Maria does have suggestion on how to incorporate those. The needs for manipulatives depends on your dcs, but for each concept, it starts with the pictorial stage first then incrementally move on to the abstract stage.

-It has lots of drills for concepts and facts at both pictorial and abstract (number only) stage. If your dc gets it, move on. If not, you can drill to your heart content. It also has worksheet maker as well if you need to.

-Lots of variety of problem in the program. It's NOT boring.

-It's workbooky - well, it's a worktext, what should I say ?

- It's a semi-mastery program, BUT Maria just released cumulative reviews, designed to be used regularly along with the book. The cumulative review worksheets are free with the book (light blue series I believe).

-Cheap .... (I know you don't care if the program costs arms and legs ... but this program is cheap if you get the electronic version).

 

Another option is Horizon (spiral) ... it's pretty much open and go.

 

Good luck.

[LoveBaby]

I've used all of the ones you have except MUS. I'm using R&S right now and really like it, but I am going to switch to Christian Light Ed. next year. I like that the upper years are consumable and not texts. The lightunits are written to the student. It's supposed to be much more independent. They have a really awesome fact drill program built in that I love. It's a spiral approach and it seems to move a bit faster than R&S.

 

There are not a lot of manipulatives and fussy stuff to go along. The TM's are easy to figure out what you are supposed to do. The scope and sequence seem pretty solid, as well and seems to be a little ahead of R&S.

[TN Mama]

Jennifer, Have you looked at Christian Light Education (CLE)? It seems to touch on everything that you are looking for:

drill, other "math" topics include calendars, measurement, time & money, not teacher intensive, great TM's, pretty open & go.

 

There website is newly improved www.clp.org

 

The yahoo group has samples: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianlightfamilies/ (click on photos for samples)

 

 

Good luck with your search!

[Tiramisu]

Jennifer, Have you looked at Christian Light Education (CLE)? It seems to touch on everything that you are looking for:

drill, other "math" topics include calendars, measurement, time & money, not teacher intensive, great TM's, pretty open & go.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I really think CLE fits your criteria. It's coverage of all topics mathematical is very thorough, includes lots of drill without it becoming drudgery, and everything is right there in the student's light unit.

[LadyAberlin]

If you are wanting Spiral then I think CLE would be a good fit.

 

I though R&S was mastery?

[Isa]

For something a bit different than what was suggested, you could try Miquon. I have used it with three children so far in grades 1-3, and they have all enjoyed it. I haven't used it strictly as is suggested (where the teacher has a lot of interaction with the children). I have basically let my children pick which section they want to work on, and then they only come to me for help. Every so often I do use elements of other math programs to explain concepts to them to make sure they have understood everything.

 

Now Miquon is not scripted, but there are suggestions on how to teach the concepts in the teacher guide. Miquon is a discovery based program that presents concepts in an interesting and different way, so some may not feel comfortable with this approach.

 

I credit Miquon for giving my children confidence in math. They certainly don't view math as boring!

[PeterPan]

Jennifer, you wanted to talk priorities, so hmm... Are you trying to use RS B with your 5 and 4 yo's??? Or the 10 yo??? It's not age-appropriate for either of them, unless your 10 yo has learning disabilities. Also, RS now sells a package for like $5 that has all the photocopies already done. The only thing left to assemble are the hundreds squares, and those are just some tape and an hour of your life. I'd make sure you're using the right level. If you take on level B with the average 5 yo, he's going to be totally swamped by lesson 40.

 

The first thing I thought of, when I read your list, was that it really didn't account for the differences in learning styles. For instance my visual learner, social bug dd LOVES the stories and extras of the BJU math. For another dc those might be distracting. But I understand having multiple dc means you're overloaded and need to be practical! So I suggest that you look for curriculum that spans the learning styles. For instance, BJU has the visual stuff to appeal to visual learners, hands-on stuff for those types, stories and teacher interaction for auditory learners, extra spiral review worksheets (now on cd in the new editions, very cool). A good curriculum like that is trying to appeal to all types of learners and can make it easier to span a variety of children, since that is of course what it was WRITTEN for.

 

The other thing to remember is that if you pick one thing and use it, you get faster at it. And the reality is, math is going to take a chunk of your day. It might be that some other things have to give to make time for math. I guess it's just your call about how much time you want to give it. BJU hits a variety of learning styles but needs to be taught. I happen to really like a foundation of RS and then moving on to BJU in later years, which is what we did. That's my plan for this new baby as a matter of fact. Since you own RS, you might as well stick with it and do that. You're going to LOVE the foundation it provides and the way it teaches your dc to think through math. Then you can put them, when they hit say 3rd gr, into BJU or Horizons or what have you and be fine. BJU was a good transition for us because it continues the conceptual teaching very similar to what RS had.

 

You've tried multiple programs that are very conceptual-based, so I can't see you getting happy going to something totally the opposite. (just my philosophical observation, take it for what it's worth) You've got to know yourself. If it's that important to you and you're not going to be happy with Saxon/Horizons/Abeka, then you're going to have to spend the time of the more conceptual programs (BJU/RS/MUS). Also, don't make the mistake of thinking your one perfect math program has to have it all. If you like the conceptual program (RS, BJU, whatever) but want convenient, high doses of drill, add on a Flashmaster. It's easy to implement and works wonders.

[JenniferB]

Jennifer, you wanted to talk priorities, so hmm... Are you trying to use RS B with your 5 and 4 yo's???

 

Yes.

 

Or the 10 yo??? R&S 4th grade with her.

 

It's not age-appropriate for either of them, unless your 10 yo has learning disabilities. Also, RS now sells a package for like $5 that has all the photocopies already done. Good to know, but I already have most of the Appendix copied, I just need to cut some things and assemble - probably like an hour of my life! :tongue_smilie:LOL. You'd think I could get this done. The only thing left to assemble are the hundreds squares, and those are just some tape and an hour of your life. I'd make sure you're using the right level. If you take on level B with the average 5 yo, he's going to be totally swamped by lesson 40.

 

This may be, I haven't made it to lesson 40 yet. So far, it's too easy. But that's probably because I'm only at around lesson 10. He finished MUS Primer last summer, and has worked through about 1/3 of MUS Foundations, and I've done some Montessori math with him too. I also spent several weeks on Ray's Arithmetic working with sums. Anyway, Level A seemed like all review, and reading on Morning Star's blog her suggestions seemed to say to start on Level B with what math we've already done, so that's why I started at B. My 4yo is just along for the ride. I just let her sit in on all of my 5yo's lessons, and sometimes I give her age appropriate questions/activities, but she keeps up pretty well anyway.

 

The first thing I thought of, when I read your list, was that it really didn't account for the differences in learning styles. True. I don't think much about learning styles. I kind of went on a learning style tangent with my oldest, now age 10, and she fell behind in her weaker areas, so now I'm "off" learning styles for the most part. I've actually gone in the opposite direction with her. Her weak areas are visual/perceptual, and therfore her writing suffers, and her spelling. We spend most of our time together working vigorously on strengthening these weaknesses. Her auditory strength doesn't need reinforcing, it advances naturally on it's own, so I dont' focus much on giving her more auditory help. For instance my visual learner, social bug dd LOVES the stories and extras of the BJU math. For another dc those might be distracting. But I understand having multiple dc means you're overloaded and need to be practical! Amen. So I suggest that you look for curriculum that spans the learning styles. For instance, BJU has the visual stuff to appeal to visual learners, hands-on stuff for those types, stories and teacher interaction for auditory learners, extra spiral review worksheets (now on cd in the new editions, very cool). A good curriculum like that is trying to appeal to all types of learners and can make it easier to span a variety of children, since that is of course what it was WRITTEN for. I'll check out BJU, sounds good.

 

The other thing to remember is that if you pick one thing and use it, you get faster at it. True, I got much faster with SWR after a few months of using it. And the reality is, math is going to take a chunk of your day. It might be that some other things have to give to make time for math. I guess it's just your call about how much time you want to give it. BJU hits a variety of learning styles but needs to be taught. I happen to really like a foundation of RS (that was one of the selling points for me too) and then moving on to BJU in later years, which is what we did. That's my plan for this new baby as a matter of fact. Sounds like a good plan. Since you own RS, you might as well stick with it and do that. Believe me, I want to stick with RS if I can just get those darn manipulatives made! My dcs really like it so far. You're going to LOVE the foundation it provides and the way it teaches your dc to think through math. Then you can put them, when they hit say 3rd gr, into BJU or Horizons or what have you and be fine. BJU was a good transition for us because it continues the conceptual teaching very similar to what RS had.

 

You've tried multiple programs that are very conceptual-based, I'm attracted to curriculum which resembles and pulls from the Montessori method, which is where my background in early childhood education comes from. But, I'm also so frustrated by this method, and often want to go in the opposite direction! It's a love-hate relationship. I love the "idea" of manipulatives and the look of them and the novelty of them, but I'm not really good at implementing the use of them. I'm really good at opening the book, teaching the scripted lesson, and assigning homework (worksheets). This is the method that actually gets done around here, though it's not the method that I love in my heart. Do you know what I mean? so I can't see you getting happy going to something totally the opposite. (just my philosophical observation, take it for what it's worth) You've got to know yourself. If it's that important to you and you're not going to be happy with Saxon/Horizons/Abeka, then you're going to have to spend the time of the more conceptual programs (BJU/RS/MUS). Also, don't make the mistake of thinking your one perfect math program has to have it all. If you like the conceptual program (RS, BJU, whatever) but want convenient, high doses of drill, add on a Flashmaster Yes, I use this with my 10yo. Great device!. It's easy to implement and works wonders.

 

Elizabeth, thank you for your thoughtful response. I will consider what you said in sticking with RS and transitioning to BJU around 3rd grade, or maybe after Level B. I do really like a lot of things about RS. It's just the prep that bothers me.

 

Thanks!

[JenniferB]

For something a bit different than what was suggested, you could try Miquon. I have used it with three children so far in grades 1-3, and they have all enjoyed it. I haven't used it strictly as is suggested (where the teacher has a lot of interaction with the children). I have basically let my children pick which section they want to work on, and then they only come to me for help. Every so often I do use elements of other math programs to explain concepts to them to make sure they have understood everything.

 

Now Miquon is not scripted, but there are suggestions on how to teach the concepts in the teacher guide. Miquon is a discovery based program that presents concepts in an interesting and different way, so some may not feel comfortable with this approach.

 

I credit Miquon for giving my children confidence in math. They certainly don't view math as boring!

 

Oops, forgot to mention we did Miquon too! I didn't really get it well enough to implement it. So, I sold it. ;)

[JenniferB]

I used BJU with my dd when she was getting over her mom-induced math crises. It is open and go. It has built in review. I didn't use the teacher's guide with her for the 2nd grade book although I bought it. I focuses on one topic per chapter, but has review problems on most sheets and has chapter reviews. It covers all the mathy things. You can buy a book with paper punch out manipulatives if you want to - things like paper money and clocks and rulers and such.

 

I have RS A for my youngest but it isn't getting done so I got the BJU K - it gets done everyday while her sister is doing her math. In my perfect homeschool, we will be doing RS A, but until then she does BJU and if Singapore ever quits working for the older one we are back to BJU.

 

OK - I'm going to check out BJU - that's 2 for BJU.

 

Jennifer, Have you looked at Christian Light Education (CLE)? It seems to touch on everything that you are looking for:

drill, other "math" topics include calendars, measurement, time & money, not teacher intensive, great TM's, pretty open & go.

 

There website is newly improved www.clp.org

 

The yahoo group has samples: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianlightfamilies/ (click on photos for samples)

 

 

Good luck with your search!

 

I'm going to look at CLE too. There were a few that said CLE would fit my priorities.

 

Thanks Ladies for all your responses!

[Spy Car]

For something a bit different than what was suggested, you could try Miquon. I have used it with three children so far in grades 1-3, and they have all enjoyed it. I haven't used it strictly as is suggested (where the teacher has a lot of interaction with the children). I have basically let my children pick which section they want to work on, and then they only come to me for help. Every so often I do use elements of other math programs to explain concepts to them to make sure they have understood everything.

 

Now Miquon is not scripted, but there are suggestions on how to teach the concepts in the teacher guide. Miquon is a discovery based program that presents concepts in an interesting and different way, so some may not feel comfortable with this approach.

 

I credit Miquon for giving my children confidence in math. They certainly don't view math as boring!

 

:iagree: It may not be for Jennifer (who I'd ask: did you read the teacher guides?) but "generally" speaking, Miquon has (is) giving my son a confident (and joy-filled) introduction to math, and I'm so grateful to have found this program.

 

Miquon has opened him to an understanding math at 4.5 that I would not have dreamt possible, and has made the experience mind-expanding in a way that spirit-killing math-drills on math-facts never could.

 

I love (love) Miquon! :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Kim in SouthGa]

Horizons seems like just what you are asking for. We have yet to need the TM, except as an answer key. I find that at this age (my 9dd uses 4th and my 8ds uses 2nd-he is flying through it, but I thought he needed the review before we went to 3rd), it is much easier to just quickly explain how to do it for them instead of going through a scripted lesson. Of course, this is how they want to learn also...they have no patience for long drawn out lessons with lots of gadgets! We switched them right before Christmas from MUS, and they are doing great and loving it! I just wish it went past 6th grade~we will follow Horizons 6 with Teaching Textbooks Pre-Algebra.

hth

[MgoBlue]

At the home school used book store; the lady there said if you do minquon; stay with it for a while...don't flip flop back & forth with it. We chose not to use it because I think my 2nd grader was sort of beyond it(she'd gone to first grade at catholic school & this is my 1st yr home schooling).

 

We went with Singapore with some other books for supplements. minquon looked really cool for kids...nicely set up. My dd just whizes thru stuff too quickly for all the repetion in some of the stuff --although there a good chunk or repetition necessary! Thanks OEliz for confirming that math takes up a good chunk of the day...this is so true for us & I was almost starting to question it!

Paula

[PeterPan]

Jennifer, have your 10 yo assemble those things for you. :)

 

It sounds like you've placed your ds correctly in level B. There is a placement page on RS's website, but it sounds like you did fine with Britta's advice. I did level B with my dd when she was 5. It's just not appropriate for an "average" dc or one who hasn't had any math background, kwim? I know some people like to skip A and go directly to B to save money, but I'm with you, open and go lessons that fit the kid are GOOD!

 

I hear you on the dangers of following the rabbit trails too much with trying to fit one dc. My dd is just a fuzz behind yours, sounds similar (though more visual than auditory), and I finally realized she was going to have her strengths and weaknesses no matter WHAT curriculum I used, that her struggling with something was not a sign that I had failed. So at some point you just pick reasonable things and do them. That's also why I bought WP this year, because I just got over the top with history planning, when I added a baby to the mix. I realized I want to TEACH, not write lesson plans. That's what curriculum is for!

 

Get your dd to prep those things for you and just jump in and teach that RS B. It's an AWESOME level, totally terrific, and you'll be glad you did. I really like the way RS C presents 4 digit subtraction. Beyond that, it's just your call as to how it fits, how long it stays practical. Level C is different from B, in that it has a worksheet for almost every lesson and review sheets weekly. This makes it easier to get into that "teach and hand them a worksheet" groove.

 

You're going to get there. Don't make this overhard. Your ds would probably do fine even WITHOUT the RS stuff that needs to be assembled, so teach it without and move on! You have the base 10 picture cards and the place value cards and an abacus, right? Everything else is bonus. Just teach it.

[JenniferB]

Jennifer, have your 10 yo assemble those things for you. :)

 

It sounds like you've placed your ds correctly in level B. There is a placement page on RS's website, but it sounds like you did fine with Britta's advice. I did level B with my dd when she was 5. It's just not appropriate for an "average" dc or one who hasn't had any math background, kwim? I know some people like to skip A and go directly to B to save money, but I'm with you, open and go lessons that fit the kid are GOOD!

 

I hear you on the dangers of following the rabbit trails too much with trying to fit one dc. My dd is just a fuzz behind yours, sounds similar (though more visual than auditory), and I finally realized she was going to have her strengths and weaknesses no matter WHAT curriculum I used, that her struggling with something was not a sign that I had failed. So at some point you just pick reasonable things and do them. That's also why I bought WP this year, because I just got over the top with history planning, when I added a baby to the mix. I realized I want to TEACH, not write lesson plans. That's what curriculum is for!

 

Get your dd to prep those things for you and just jump in and teach that RS B. It's an AWESOME level, totally terrific, and you'll be glad you did. I really like the way RS C presents 4 digit subtraction. Beyond that, it's just your call as to how it fits, how long it stays practical. Level C is different from B, in that it has a worksheet for almost every lesson and review sheets weekly. This makes it easier to get into that "teach and hand them a worksheet" groove.

 

You're going to get there. Don't make this overhard. Your ds would probably do fine even WITHOUT the RS stuff that needs to be assembled, so teach it without and move on! You have the base 10 picture cards and the place value cards and an abacus, right? Everything else is bonus. Just teach it.

 

OK - you've convinced me! I'll assemble tomorrow and start back up on Monday. Thanks OhE.