Storm Bay Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Understood. As I have said, everything I have seen from a Jewish perspective is that these folks are religiously Christians rather than Jewish whether or not they are ethnically Jewish, and frequently the expectation is that they are Christians who are furthermore attempting to appear Jewish to covertly proselytize in the Jewish community. That's why I have been surprised that someone who does not follow Yeshua would be self-identifying as a "Messianic Jew" rather than just a "Jew" since the teaching of a moshiach is implicit within traditional Judaism. I didn't say that they self-ID'd themselves this Messianic Jews, but that they considered themselves SMALL M messianic because they believe in a coming Messiah. I didn't say small m, but used a small m and reversed the word order to show the difference. And Bill is right when he stated:, It is impossible for me to overstate what grave offense is taken in the Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, and Hasidic Jewish communities to the term "Messianic Jews" being used in this fashion. Bill I didn't state that, but that's why I was told this by an Orthodox Jew. It's a theological point I didn't want to debate, but I personally agree that Messianic Jews are Christians, but thy're Christians who still practice the OT law but don't think that Gentile converts need to. I totally understand why the Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox and Hasidic Jews are offended. But The Messianic Jews could technically be called "Christian Jews" by many because the men will wear prayer bead, that round head covering (sorry, I can't think of the name), etc, etc. My point was simply to give an example of "Christian Jews," not to say that I agree with their theology, although I am familiar with the scriptures they use. For the most part, I haven't given my opinion on any of the religious views or combinations discussed here, because this is a learning thread, not a debate thread :). Fwiw, Bill and I have disagreed many times before, but he did understand the points I was making, and I appreciate his clarification in a couple of posts (and his knowing I understood something when he made a point about something I'd posted). Edited February 2, 2009 by Karin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) I didn't say that they self-ID'd themselves this Messianic Jews, but that they considered themselves SMALL M messianic because they believe in a coming Messiah. I didn't say small m, but used a small m and reversed the word order to show the difference. Ah, I think I see the root of the problem--we were indeed talking at cross purposes and are basically all saying the same thing. I misinterpreted your statement--"But I know Jewish people who believe that all Jews are inherently messianic because they believe in the coming Messiah, not because they accept Jesus as the Messiah--those are the "Messianic Jews."". In it I read the word "those" as referring to "Jews who believe that all Jews are messianic" not as referring to "[Jews who] accept Jesus as the Messiah". Thanks for the clarification. That makes much more sense to me now and I am glad that I didn't have it all backwards. I wasn't concerned about whether one agreed with their theology, just trying to make sure we were using the same terms to mean the same thing--the basis for any hope of clear communication:). I don't happen to agree with the theology of traditional Jews, traditional Christians or Messianic Jews (or many other groups for that matter).;) The head covering is called a yarmulke or kippah, btw. :001_smile: Edited February 2, 2009 by KarenNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 My understanding about not having any other gods before our heavenly Father, is this: anything that takes you away from worshipping God is having a god before him. In other words, alcohol can be a god. If you are drunk all the time and not in worship, that is your god. If you work all the time and not taking time to worship, that is your god. Having pictures of your children on your mantle, is not a god. If you don't worship God but worship your children, then they are your god. A god can be anything that you put before our Father in heaven. Does that include pictures of your children? I am really confused by this: any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. What about dolls? Or stuffed animals? Or your children drawing pictures of animals? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I have, but are you suggesting I missed something? Maybe I did. :) Please enlighten me. Thanks. Thanks for sharing. And for the link. I was wondering if I was mistaken about the original intent of your question. I was not mistaken, after all. You have read the board rules, yes? No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna T. Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 How 'bout the first two commandments? You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Pretty clear to me that Yahweh knows there are other gods and doesn't want his followers to recognize them. The other gods are fallen angels, Satan's host. And, of course, some are just figments of men's imaginations. Many are very real though. This is an interesting thread. I just came in on it today and don't intend to run my mouth too much. Listen, ya'll, I've said this before on this board and I don't care about my reputation. Not one bit. So, let me say again, not that I expect anyone to hear, just gotta say... I have seen Lucifer. I saw him face to face, up close and personal on several occasions. When my sons were six and three, they saw him also. He manifested himself to me as an angel. What you would typically think of as an angel. Very beautiful. So beautiful that I thought he was God. My youngest son saw him as a dragon type beast and my oldest son saw him in the forms of smoky white circles that floated through our home. Now, I'm only sharing that to say that the Devil is real. He is not myth, he is not an archtype of man's fears or whatever else you want to say. He is a person. He is real. Now, I'm not saying that all pagans are devil worshipers. I don't believe that at all. I respect the right of anyone to worship anyone or anything or no one or no thing - of their own choice. But, as I've gone through the posts here, I keep reading that the devil isn't real. Well, he is real. I know he's real because I have both seen and conversed directly with him over a period of time. He is a great deceiver and his ultimate goal is to cause others to worship him as a god. As long as you go along, he is quite nice. When the Lord God opened my eyes to what was happening... well, let's just say he didn't stay nice. That's all I wanted to say. Best wishes and good will to all. Bless ya'll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Amen to that! Satan is most definitely real. I applaud you for standing up for what you believe. So often when we do that, we are called "holier than thou" or "judgmental". I worship God and only God. There is only one God. All others are figments of one's imagination. The other gods are fallen angels, Satan's host. And, of course, some are just figments of men's imaginations. Many are very real though. This is an interesting thread. I just came in on it today and don't intend to run my mouth too much. Listen, ya'll, I've said this before on this board and I don't care about my reputation. Not one bit. So, let me say again, not that I expect anyone to hear, just gotta say... I have seen Lucifer. I saw him face to face, up close and personal on several occasions. When my sons were six and three, they saw him also. He manifested himself to me as an angel. What you would typically think of as an angel. Very beautiful. So beautiful that I thought he was God. My youngest son saw him as a dragon type beast and my oldest son saw him in the forms of smoky white circles that floated through our home. Now, I'm only sharing that to say that the Devil is real. He is not myth, he is not an archtype of man's fears or whatever else you want to say. He is a person. He is real. Now, I'm not saying that all pagans are devil worshipers. I don't believe that at all. I respect the right of anyone to worship anyone or anything or no one or no thing - of their own choice. But, as I've gone through the posts here, I keep reading that the devil isn't real. Well, he is real. I know he's real because I have both seen and conversed directly with him over a period of time. He is a great deceiver and his ultimate goal is to cause others to worship him as a god. As long as you go along, he is quite nice. When the Lord God opened my eyes to what was happening... well, let's just say he didn't stay nice. That's all I wanted to say. Best wishes and good will to all. Bless ya'll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lorna Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Amen to that! Satan is most definitely real. I applaud you for standing up for what you believe. So often when we do that, we are called "holier than thou" or "judgmental". I worship God and only God. There is only one God. All others are figments of one's imagination. Do not assume that everyone on the boards shares a particular religious conviction These boards are inclusive. You are welcome to ask theological questions, but don't post as though everyone who frequents the boards shares your ideology. Offending posts may be deleted. Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. For example: If someone asks, "What are your kids dressing up as for Halloween?" don't launch into an explanation of how evil Halloween is. If someone asks, "Is Halloween evil?" have a ball. (Conversely: if someone posts, "We don't do Halloween; what can we substitute?" don't take this as an opportunity to prove to them that Halloween is really just fine.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Now, I'm not saying that all pagans are devil worshipers. I don't believe that at all. I respect the right of anyone to worship anyone or anything or no one or no thing - of their own choice. But, as I've gone through the posts here, I keep reading that the devil isn't real. It may be helpful to point out that saying that one does not worship a particular deity is not necessarily the equivalent of saying that deity does not exist (unless one is a monotheist, of course;)). I do not worship Ganesha any more than I worship Yahweh or Satan, but that doesn't mean I believe they are are therefore necessarily imaginary. As a polytheist, I am quite willing to acknowledge that an infinite number of Gods may indeed both exist and be concerned with their followers (and sometimes the followers of other Gods). I am not one of those followers, so I remain more concerned about my relationship with my own Gods and let others worry about theirs---including whether those spiritual entities are considered Gods or angels.:) No polytheist that I know of, past or present, has ever said that all Gods or other spiritual entities are necessarily benevolently inclined toward humanity or even necessarily interested in humanity at all. Rather like the fact that there is a President of the United States (of which I am a citizen) and there are also presidents of other countries. Those other presidents are real, have real power and have at least the potential to have some effect on my life, but are not a day to day concern. Some of those other presidents may be friendly toward citizens of the US, some are not and some may be indifferent. This would be the "poly-presidential" position as opposed to the "mono-presidential" position---that there is only one President for the entire world whose authority extends over every person in every country and the other presidents are simply subordinates of his, to him or are imaginary. To extend the analogy (hopefully not to the breaking point:)), saying that I do not consider myself subject to the rules made by the governor of a province in Canada is not the equivalent of saying that I believe that governor is imaginary or that the people in his province are not subject to his rules. This is true whether or not that governor believes I *ought* to be subject to his rules:). I am using governor here because in traditional Christian theology Satan is considered subordinate to God and therefore doesn't equate to the "president" in my analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 To teach. We, who are teaching her a bit about Paganism aren't actively trying to convert her, but we are witnessing about the Pagan beliefs. Parrothead, this is not directed at you but just seems to fit here the best. The difference is that she asked and expressed a desire to learn. Christians rarely ask non-Christians if they would like to hear about Jesus Christ. I would personally appreciate it if someone asked me if I would like to hear "The Good News" rather than just assuming I would. When no politeness is shown before launching into such teaching, it is very difficult for a person to politely extricate themselves from such a situation. I have actually had Christians argue with me when I told them that I didn't really care to hear about Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven right then. A simple, "Would you like to hear about Jesus Christ?" can be answered with a simple, "No, thank you", whereas I AM going to tell you about Jesus Christ cannot be politely answered with a, "No, I'd really rather you didn't." This small courtesy could go along way towards healing the schisms between Christian and non-Christian. Of course, there are a few others but they are not directly applicable here so I won't mention them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Now, granted, maybe some things have been worded rather harshly in this thread (is that why we are cracking down?), but why is it acceptable to have people agreeing with each other that there is no way to prove that there is a God, but it is not acceptable to have people agree with each other that there is only one? Edited February 2, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Amen to that! Satan is most definitely real. I applaud you for standing up for what you believe. So often when we do that, we are called "holier than thou" or "judgmental". I worship God and only God. There is only one God. All others are figments of one's imagination. I do think that you have been very respectful, lovemytea, which is why I have answered your questions. This however, is confrontational. I think if in the reverse I were to say to you (or any Christian) "Your God is a figment of your imagination," I think you would find that incredibly insulting. I would never do that. *I* do not believe in your God, or Satan, (no matter what anyone says they have seen). But I would never tell you you were wrong. My beliefs are my own, yours are your own. Whatever spiritual path you chose, I do not condemn you. I wish you and others could say the same, but alas, I fear we are a long way off from that level of acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanestMomInMidwest Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I do think that you have been very respectful, lovemytea, which is why I have answered your questions. This however, is confrontational. I think if in the reverse I were to say to you (or any Christian) "Your God is a figment of your imagination," I think you would find that incredibly insulting. I would never do that. *I* do not believe in your God, or Satan, (no matter what anyone says they have seen). But I would never tell you you were wrong. My beliefs are my own, yours are your own. Whatever spiritual path you chose, I do not condemn you. I wish you and others could say the same, but alas, I fear we are a long way off from that level of acceptance. Amen to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 "Your God is a figment of your imagination," Preface: I am not lovemytea. I was skimming and did not catch that statement. I can see the problem now. Thank you for explaining in a very respectful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) I am so confused by the intent of this thread. I understand wanting to know more about certain religions or beliefs. I get that. I took a religious studies class in college and studied may different beliefs. Obviously, once you choose a belief, that is your way of thinking. I see no need to address others in this thread about what they believe. You aren't going to convince anyone to change their beliefs on a thread on TWTM forum. So really - I am just wondering why this thread went from education to...well...this? :( Edited February 2, 2009 by Tree House Academy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I see no need to address others in this thread about what they believe. :( I did not see lovemytea doing that? What I saw was addressing Pagan Christians (who are not on this thread) and addressing Christians that seem to agree with her. I think that her intention was to address the person she was responding to. Though it probably would have been best left on a profile message or PM instead of in this thread, maybe she wasn't thinking about it being addressed to all of the others on the thread? (assuming the best) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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