Memorua Press or Rod and Staff?

[Amanda1989]

Hi! I have an advanced learner and I am having a lot of trouble with the MP support groups. They keep saying I MUST keep my kid in the grade her age suggests or I will be missing important gaps. I am honestly starting to feel like my dream of educating my children classically might have to come to an end. I want to meet my child where she is and if that means skipping a grade then that's what we might have to do. However the other community is really pushing back on this idea so I am worried I might have to leave MP for Rod and staff where that stuff isnt as important as you can accerate through their program and not miss much. Am I wrong? I am feeling very discouraged on being able to do this. How long should a "1st grader" who is on the 2/3 grade level ve spending in school? What about my son who is pre k age but reading on a 2nd grade level? please help me not lose my sanity.

[HomeAgain]

I wouldn't use either with an advanced learner unless it was something they chose. 

The thing is, Memoria Press and R&S both increase physical output with age.  That's not always the best situation for a child who is mentally advanced but physically on point with development.  They're not structured to be able to move around the lock step of physical = mental, and it hits big around 3rd or 4th grade, when the physical output ramps up considerably.  So it's not a big deal *now*, but it is in a year.

There are a lot of different ways of meeting kids where they are in both areas.  FWIW, my own kids did about 4-5 hours of "school" consistently from about age 4 on, but would have been indignant if anyone called it school when they were very young.  There was a lot of play, a lot of physically appropriate work, and a lot of work on my end to amend lessons to different developmental needs.  We did one year of Memoria Press' First Form Latin.  My 3rd grader chose it after looking at all options because he likes predictability and knowing what to expect.  Even he was burned out by the never ending pages to fill in the blanks, no matter how we cut it down.  We didn't return to the forms and went in a different direction the next year.

[Amanda1989]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I wouldn't use either with an advanced learner unless it was something they chose. 

The thing is, Memoria Press and R&S both increase physical output with age.  That's not always the best situation for a child who is mentally advanced but physically on point with development.  They're not structured to be able to move around the lock step of physical = mental, and it hits big around 3rd or 4th grade, when the physical output ramps up considerably.  So it's not a big deal *now*, but it is in a year.

There are a lot of different ways of meeting kids where they are in both areas.  FWIW, my own kids did about 4-5 hours of "school" consistently from about age 4 on, but would have been indignant if anyone called it school when they were very young.  There was a lot of play, a lot of physically appropriate work, and a lot of work on my end to amend lessons to different developmental needs.  We did one year of Memoria Press' First Form Latin.  My 3rd grader chose it after looking at all options because he likes predictability and knowing what to expect.  Even he was burned out by the never ending pages to fill in the blanks, no matter how we cut it down.  We didn't return to the forms and went in a different direction the next year.

What do you suggest then?

[HomeAgain]

14 minutes ago, Amanda1989 said:

What do you suggest then?

I suggest flexible work you can scale up or down.  You might check out the accelerated learners board here, too, for ideas.

In 1st, my DS was using:

MEP math
Story of the World
Grammarland w/Montessori-ish exercises
Mystery Science (or maybe that was K)
Critical Thinking Co. logic puzzles
Violin lessons
Artistic Pursuits
Latin's Not So Tough (for fun)
One Third Stories French (for fun)
Lots of games and puzzles

Writing was organic, through copywork and learning to label diagrams/maps.  Spelling was an older speller and then Dictation Day By Day.  We leaned heavily into the activity book for SOTW and anything else we could make an activity.  When we did ancient Greece he learned Greek.  When he wanted to prove he could "do math fast" we played with Thinkin' Logs multiplication stackers.  He read a variety of things and did...one..real book study that year with The Phantom Tollbooth.  He'd read a chapter and then do an activity with me.

My goal for first grade was to keep him interested in learning and set a good foundation.  What are your goals for first grade?

 

[Amanda1989]

2 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I suggest flexible work you can scale up or down.  You might check out the accelerated learners board here, too, for ideas.

In 1st, my DS was using:

MEP math
Story of the World
Grammarland w/Montessori-ish exercises
Mystery Science (or maybe that was K)
Critical Thinking Co. logic puzzles
Violin lessons
Artistic Pursuits
Latin's Not So Tough (for fun)
One Third Stories French (for fun)
Lots of games and puzzles

Writing was organic, through copywork and learning to label diagrams/maps.  Spelling was an older speller and then Dictation Day By Day.  We leaned heavily into the activity book for SOTW and anything else we could make an activity.  When we did ancient Greece he learned Greek.  When he wanted to prove he could "do math fast" we played with Thinkin' Logs multiplication stackers.  He read a variety of things and did...one..real book study that year with The Phantom Tollbooth.  He'd read a chapter and then do an activity with me.

My goal for first grade was to keep him interested in learning and set a good foundation.  What are your goals for first grade?

 

My main goal is for her to be able to read and understand the Bible first a foremost. I've been supplementing with McGuffey Since that is the main goal of the series as well. I also want her to be able to read and enjoy books rather than just wanting to watch the movies. I want her to be able to form an argument against things she knows are wrong like bullying and lies. I am not really sure what else is our goal.

[HomeAgain]

2 minutes ago, Amanda1989 said:

My main goal is for her to be able to read and understand the Bible first a foremost. I've been supplementing with McGuffey Since that is the main goal of the series as well. I also want her to be able to read and enjoy books rather than just wanting to watch the movies. I want her to be able to form an argument against things she knows are wrong like bullying and lies. I am not really sure what else is our goal.

These are large goals for first grade, and not developmentally appropriate. What do you want to tackle as realistic goals for this year?  What is something you can say is an objective for the next few months and how do you want to do it?

I can break mine into smaller goals:

Interest in learning

• present new ideas with appreciation for them
• know when to stop a lesson/slow down for difficulty
• follow his lead for interests
• share materials I love
• weave in skills in different ways
• be curious with him, don't give answers
• go new places, try new things

Set a good foundation

• develop number sense in value and quantity, and how numbers work
• teach the parts of a sentence: punctuation/grammar/spelling
• teach the beginnings of independent writing: narration in both oral and written form (copied from a dictation)
• develop musical skill
• work on fine and gross motor skills
• work on memorization of small and large pieces of information

[Amanda1989]

1 minute ago, HomeAgain said:

These are large goals for first grade, and not developmentally appropriate. What do you want to tackle as realistic goals for this year?  What is something you can say is an objective for the next few months and how do you want to do it?

I can break mine into smaller goals:

Interest in learning

• present new ideas with appreciation for them
• know when to stop a lesson/slow down for difficulty
• follow his lead for interests
• share materials I love
• weave in skills in different ways
• be curious with him, don't give answers
• go new places, try new things

Set a good foundation

• develop number sense in value and quantity, and how numbers work
• teach the parts of a sentence: punctuation/grammar/spelling
• teach the beginnings of independent writing: narration in both oral and written form (copied from a dictation)
• develop musical skill
• work on fine and gross motor skills
• work on memorization of small and large pieces of information

I guess you can say I was listing "end goals" It is hard for me to envision smaller steps, but You are completely right. I need to break it into realistic goals. I guess our goals would be to develop a love of reading, let her explore genres of books and discover what she enjoys most. Understand beginning grammar, and set a strong foundation for the next years. Am I getting this right?

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't use either one. In terms of the hierarchy of critical thinking, MP is knowledge focused. That is the lowest level of thinking. (Research Bloom's taxonomy in order to understand how children learn.) MP would have made me quit homeschooling bc I would have hated every minute of it.  FWIW, homeschooling does not need to be school at home (which both of those are). Homeschooling can be so much more.

For those ages, I would let them read whatever books they want to read. I would pull a sentence or 2 from their reading for copywork.  Use the copywork to teach punctuation, capitalization, and simple grammar.  Add in math, phonics/spelling, and read alouds and that's it. The rest of their day is spent playing, crafting, singing, dancing....whatever you want. Take them on nature hikes and teach them to observe. 

FWIW, I gave been homeschooling for 30 yrs. I have several gifted kids. I have taken that approach with all of them. It is very effective bc there are no limits to what you do other their abilities. 

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Amanda1989 said:

I guess you can say I was listing "end goals" It is hard for me to envision smaller steps, but You are completely right. I need to break it into realistic goals. I guess our goals would be to develop a love of reading, let her explore genres of books and discover what she enjoys most. Understand beginning grammar, and set a strong foundation for the next years. Am I getting this right?

That sounds a lot more doable!

And once you have that, you can start listing out ways you can use to do each one and find resources to help you along.  You might find R&S or MP fits your goals for the year.  You might find that they don't, or are insufficient on their own.  But all of a sudden you've defined what you want a year to look like and given yourself many more options to take advantage of.

[Amanda1989]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

That sounds a lot more doable!

And once you have that, you can start listing out ways you can use to do each one and find resources to help you along.  You might find R&S or MP fits your goals for the year.  You might find that they don't, or are insufficient on their own.  But all of a sudden you've defined what you want a year to look like and given yourself many more options to take advantage of.

Wow this is the best advice I have gotten since we started in February after I pulled them out. All I have gotten from other homeschool groups is "Dont do it that way, it wasnt meant to be like that." "Maybe you are pushing them too hard if they cant write everything." and my favorite "If you work from home there is no possible way you can give your kids the right kind of education." Your words have significant changed my mindset. It's so hard to not want to replicate the public school model. I am trying every day to retrain myself to not do things like they do in school.

[LauraClark]

It might be helpful to check out what others on this forum are using in 1st grade. Each year we have a whole thread-here is this year's: 

1st grade planning 2024/2025

Whatever you decide to go with-if it requires a ton of writing or something else she is not ready for, know that it is absolutely an option to write for her or tweak the curriculum to make it work like you want it to. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Amanda1989 said:

Wow this is the best advice I have gotten since we started in February after I pulled them out. All I have gotten from other homeschool groups is "Dont do it that way, it wasnt meant to be like that." "Maybe you are pushing them too hard if they cant write everything." and my favorite "If you work from home there is no possible way you can give your kids the right kind of education." Your words have significant changed my mindset. It's so hard to not want to replicate the public school model. I am trying every day to retrain myself to not do things like they do in school.

More than likely 99% of the people who have been responding to you are newbie homeschoolers themselves.  Almost all of the homeschoolers I interact with now are school at homers who have no clue what differentiates school at home from homeschooling.  Online, computerized, minimal education or free or school in a box or outsourced teachers tend to dominate their educational options.  It is simply classroom education relocated to a different room.  There is no focus on individualized education, academic excellence, or independent research into the bigger philosophical ideas of educational pedagogy.  

FWIW, I don't push my kids.  I give them an education that meets their individual abilities.  Not a single one of my 8 kids has received the same education as a sibling.

But, in terms of working from home.....kids do deserve a teacher who is present teaching, discussing, and interacting.  Otoh, 1st grade should only take about an hr per day, so as long as they are receiving 100% of your focus during that hr and are properly supervised within the safety of your home, it should work fine.  FWIW, my rule of thumb for my kids has been 1 hr per day per grade level for academic seatwork until middle school (so 1 hr for 1st, 2 hrs for 2nd, etc).  Middle school has been 6-8 hrs and high school 7-9.  My current 9th grader is taking a solid 8 hrs.  I could not work from home and provide her with all that she needs.  But, 1st grade.....get your feet wet and see how it goes.

[Clarita]

Listen to what @8filltheheartand @HomeAgainsay in regards to this. They give really great advice.

I have an advanced first grader too. One issue that comes with it is their ability is not even. For example my son's ability to do math far exceeds his ability to physically write (same with reading and thinking), so while he can learn the math concepts just fine I have to tweak the workload to require less writing. That might look like doing some problems orally, scribing for him or allowing him to have a way to demonstrate to me he knows the material well enough to skip a section. 

Also I've noticed with my son, they are advanced because some academic things come easy to them, but also they play a lot with ideas a lot in their playtime or downtime. So, it's super important to give them that space to explore on their own terms. 

Precocious reader just let them read whatever they want. Have conversation with them about the book they are currently reading or topic they are interested in. Visit the library often and let them choose whatever reading material they want, only limiting things that may have content too mature for them. 

[Ting Tang]

I chose a lot of Rod & Staff curriculum this year for my 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 7th graders.  There is a lot of written output.  If you think MP has a lot of output, you will not be happy with R&S.  I honestly do like some of the materials, but it's heavy on textbook and output and absent of reading good living books and classic literature, which are things I think are important to spark imagination. 

On that note, you can check out the Royal Fireworks Press website. There are lots of great materials you might find suitable for your children.  I am swapping out the grammar portion of RS English for Michael Clay Thompson's grammar strand, but there are a lot of other neat materials there.

With MP, I found it helpful to buy the teacher guides only for certain things, such as literature.  Then you don't feel you've wasted materials by not filling in every blank.  2nd grade MP enrichment has some lovely materials.  But if you do it all workbook style, it will be a drag. I had very mixed feelings when we used it but have come back to it for some things.  

[Penderwink]

13 hours ago, Clarita said:

I have an advanced first grader too. One issue that comes with it is their ability is not even. For example my son's ability to do math far exceeds his ability to physically write (same with reading and thinking), so while he can learn the math concepts just fine I have to tweak the workload to require less writing.

Yes! I have a first grader whose abilities are all over the place. I look at curriculum and wonder why the conceptual part is so out of step with the written requirement (and am gradually coming to terms with the idea that it might not be the curriculum which is out of step).  I think we will be doing a lot of picking and choosing how we use resources.

I think you can use the MP materials any way that makes sense to you. You don’t need to tell anyone else or ask for permission. It might be you return to the written parts of the first grade curriculum later, to practice handwriting and spelling.

[Lovinglife234]

Your young children do not need anything except math and physical handwriting.  1st grader could do some copywork, but even that could wait another year.  Since they are reading already- do math, play and have fun.  Go places. 2nd grade- add R&S spelling if you want.  Once they are in 3rd grade- add rod and staff English if desired.  I like their English/Spelling and use nothing else for LA.

Edited September 2 by Lovinglife234

[Brooke]

I have an advanced learner as well in most areas but still very much a 5.5 turning 6 soon. Having said that, one of the biggest things I’ve learned so far in homeschooling is meet them where they are at and for the subjects that come easy to them but are still needed, I would highly recommend using something open and go with no frills. That way you can spend more time of the things that might not be the easiest and gives you more breathing room. 

For example, my son excels in Language arts and reading. When these things click for him he learns very fast. For ELA we use:

spelling workout (1 page a day mostly independent) strong speller 

First Langauage Lessons (he loves how quick these lessons take)

Switched from AAR level 3 to using Ordinary Parents guide to teacher reading. (This switch has been amazing because we do 1 lesson a day very fast) no frills is sometimes a great thing. 
 

He decided he wants to learn cursive so we are slowly moving through memoria press New American cursive
 

Writing with Ease (again open and go) he loves it!

For literature we pretty much have a chapter book to read aloud all of the time. 

We spend the most time on math (Singapore 2022) and we spend even more time with moving beyond the page  but do not use their handwriting or math. 
 

My whole point of writing all of this is to say that if you have an advanced learner, more than likely using just one curriculum might not work out. I’ve realized we are better off picking and choosing in every area. 

I am not sure if this helps but sometimes less is more especially with the subjects that come easy to the child. We were torturing ourselves with all about reading because he wasn’t getting anything from it.