Suggestions to Improve Reading Comprehension - 5th grader

[Ting Tang]

My son has struggled with reading.  He completed AAR last year, and we finished the year reading a couple of books from the 2nd grade Memoria Press literature list.  This year, I decided to do a more Charlotte Mason - flavored approach with living books.  We take turns reading together as a family mostly.  My other two kids are capable of reading and understanding on their own, but though this child's reading has greatly improved (he reads faster, smoother, etc. with still some struggles), he still has trouble with knowing what he has read.  He said he really cannot remember what he read.  I am not sure if it is because he is still putting his energy into deciphering words?  

He can get knowledge from listening and following along when we do our reading, but he still struggles with comprehension and understanding.  I don't want to do dry programs like AAR anymore.  I thought about buying a book book study set from Blackbird and Company, where he spends time writing about what he has read, possibly at a lower grade level.   Is there anything else you'd suggest?  I am really just looking for a curriculum plan.  Something small we can try, so I am open to suggestions on what to buy.  (no suggestions on diagnoses, testing, figuring out what the problem is---his reading is improving---now we need to get him to understand it).

Thanks!

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Ting Tang

[kbutton]

44 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

no suggestions on diagnoses, testing, figuring out what the problem is---his reading is improving---now we need to get him to understand it

It’s usually all the same ball of wax. At his age, you’re going to be increasingly limited in who you can find that has the right tests and the expertise to administer them to anyone over the age of twelve or so. There is a reason that many of us on here suggest testing and knowing what you’re dealing with—we wish our kids would’ve been easier to pin down at younger ages so that we could get suitable help. A fifth grader reading three levels below grade and also not understanding reading is something that can be captured on a test. You’re lucky in that regard, to be frank. If the reading he’s struggling to comprehend is also second grade level, well, I don’t know what to say, but not mentioning evals conflicts with my conscience.

That said, Mindwing Concepts materials. Watch some of their videos to see what they are like. Worth every penny of whatever you spend on them.

I would test before intervention so that you aren’t covering up the problem just far enough that he fails to get some kind of diagnosis that he’s going to need later on. It’s not fun being told the kid that can’t write or comprehend stuff is doing too well to be diagnosed, get IEP protections, get services, and is told it’s just ADHD or laziness. Or to watch them develop anxiety over school work to boot because everything they do is hard.

If this is not what you want to hear, I’ll try to ignore your LC board posts in the future.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

It’s usually all the same ball of wax. At his age, you’re going to be increasingly limited in who you can find that has the right tests and the expertise to administer them to anyone over the age of twelve or so. There is a reason that many of us on here suggest testing and knowing what you’re dealing with—we wish our kids would’ve been easier to pin down at younger ages so that we could get suitable help. A fifth grader reading three levels below grade and also not understanding reading is something that can be captured on a test. You’re lucky in that regard, to be frank. If the reading he’s struggling to comprehend is also second grade level, well, I don’t know what to say, but not mentioning evals conflicts with my conscience.

That said, Mindwing Concepts materials. Watch some of their videos to see what they are like. Worth every penny of whatever you spend on them.

I would test before intervention so that you aren’t covering up the problem just far enough that he fails to get some kind of diagnosis that he’s going to need later on. It’s not fun being told the kid that can’t write or comprehend stuff is doing too well to be diagnosed, get IEP protections, get services, and is told it’s just ADHD or laziness. Or to watch them develop anxiety over school work to boot because everything they do is hard.

If this is not what you want to hear, I’ll try to ignore your LC board posts in the future.

Thank you! No, please don’t ignore me, lol. He had an IEP and was dismissed because they said he was just quirky. Yes, they used that word. But for the future, I’d like something. One diagnosis I do have is in utero lead poisoning. We have an appointment next month to start the process again, but we were told further testing wouldn’t happen until at least six months after that. We also waited over a year for this upcoming appointment. Until I can find private options, I’m just looking for ideas since we’re not getting anywhere too fast. I’m glad he’s improved, so I’m just looking for ways to help it along. I will check out Mindwing! 

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you! No, please don’t ignore me, lol. He had an IEP and was dismissed because they said he was just quirky. Yes, they used that word. But for the future, I’d like something. One diagnosis I do have is in utero lead poisoning. We have an appointment next month to start the process again, but we were told further testing wouldn’t happen until at least six months after that. We also waited over a year for this upcoming appointment. Until I can find private options, I’m just looking for ideas since we’re not getting anywhere too fast. I’m glad he’s improved, so I’m just looking for ways to help it along. I will check out Mindwing! 

Okay, glad you are on it!

There are kits on Mindwing of complementary products, and they have really good sales now and then—if you follow them on Facebook, I think that’s where they post sale information.

[Ting Tang]

9 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Okay, glad you are on it!

There are kits on Mindwing of complementary products, and they have really good sales now and then—if you follow them on Facebook, I think that’s where they post sale information.

Thanks very much! Would you suggest buying the basic teacher manual with the magnets for starters? I’m just now perusing the website. I haven’t quite found the complimentary items, but I’m searching using a phone at the moment. 

[kbutton]

42 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks very much! Would you suggest buying the basic teacher manual with the magnets for starters? I’m just now perusing the website. I haven’t quite found the complimentary items, but I’m searching using a phone at the moment. 

Complementary meaning they go together, not complimentary as in free. So sorry! I should’ve said coordinating items, lol. That would be more clear.

The manual and magnets are a good start. If you think the braid would be more tactile for him, that is good too.

From there, you can see how it goes and whether you need more stuff or not. 

[Ausmumof3]

It sounds like listening comprehension is ok but when he reads himself it’s a problem? That would indicate that he’s still using too much brain power decoding to read for meaning. If that’s what’s going on just more time buddy reading will be important and maybe some work on suffixes/prefixes etc. (I haven’t used AAR so I don’t know how far through it goes). If he has trouble with comprehending when he listens then work on vocab. Charlotte Mason style narration is excellent for developing comprehension as well. 
 

The other thing is it could be more a memory problem than a comprehension problem? Does he have trouble remembering in other areas? (this could be an issue given lead exposure). 
 

I like the concept of the reading rope 

There’s a few different versions but this overview gives you an idea

https://amplify.com/blog/science-of-reading/the-reading-rope-breaking-it-all-down/

For my tutor students with dyslexia etc it’s often the word recognition components that needs strengthening whereas kids with other diagnosis (asd, adhd etc) those can be quite strong while it’s the language comprehension strands that need stengthening. They can decode rapidly and perfectly without comprehension. And the there’s combined diagnosis, family support and so much more. But figuring out which threads are weakest can help you figure out which need most work.

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

he still has trouble with knowing what he has read

This reminds me of my dd, who was an otherwise AMAZING reader, but she could at points read something and have NO CLUE what she read. After going around in circles with the psych, he's like hello, attention, to remember what you read you actually have to ATTEND to it. Strategies for helping them attend to reading are things like engaging prior knowledge, asking questions, etc. etc.

So there's this chick Serravallo who has THE hot book these days on reading and bajillions of things you can do. All of it is stuff you can do with what you already own, so it's in that sort of curriculum/implementation vein you're looking for. If you want to know how to use better what you already have access to, this could get you there. I own the first edition and it's pretty fab. Maybe your library will have it, though it might take a while to get a copy. https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Strategies-Book-2-0-Research-Based/dp/0325132674/ref=sr_1_1?crid=F1SR7A3Y3046&keywords=jennifer+serravallo+reading+strategies+2.0&qid=1694746195&sprefix=seravallo+reading%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-1

6 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I am not sure if it is because he is still putting his energy into deciphering words?  

Well how far are we talking? Like if my dd read say a 2 page spread in a science text and couldn't talk about it, she needed to attend, needed some work on engaging prior knowledge, etc. etc. She didn't have a LANGUAGE issue. I think you can tease this out a bit with your common sense. If you drop the level (2-3 grades lower) and he can read the text and illustrate it or narrate it or otherwise show comprehension, that tells you that decoding and being on grade level is work. You know this, but kids learn to read and LATER read to learn. So we expect that gap.

If you *drop* the grade level and he STILL is not able to narrate or to draw a picture or build with legos or in some fashion demonstrate comprehension, I would be more concerned. You don't want to *miss* something and the reading rope @Ausmumof3 is linking for you is an important way to wrap your brain around all the factors to be considered. 

So then a fresh article for you on teaching reading comprehension. This is covering a metastudy done that looked at 50+ studies in reading comprehension intervention. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2023/09/04/more-evidence-that-our-approach-to-reading-comprehension-is-all-wrong/?sh=3ab6c0b26875

[PeterPan]

BTW, have you done the Signposts yet? The two books (fiction and nonfiction) are by Beers, so you can look them up. They have active FB groups with all kinds of resources. One teacher shared a google file she had made that had all the videos, etc. to work through the signposts at a bunch of levels. LOVED that, great stuff. 

https://www.amazon.com/Notice-Note-Strategies-Close-Reading/dp/032504693X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1ELBALUDLD6B5&keywords=notice+and+note+fiction&qid=1694747849&s=books&sprefix=notice+and+note+fiction%2Cstripbooks%2C102&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Nonfiction-Stances-Signposts-Strategies/dp/0325050805/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2DNLIOBCYTASR&keywords=beers+signposts&qid=1694747759&sprefix=beers+signposts%2Caps%2C116&sr=8-2

I haven't read Kylene Beers' newest book, but it's probably up your alley.

https://www.amazon.com/When-Kids-Read-What-Teachers-Second/dp/0325144591/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1694747789&refinements=p_27%3AKylene+Beers&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Kylene+Beers

When you frontload concepts like the Signposts or working quickly through all the components of a complete narrative, you're giving this pool of skills they can then apply to your models over the following weeks. In fact, if you look at that Forbes article I linked, it said the studies show that the MOST EFFECTIVE method of working on reading comprehension was to:

-teach multiple strategies

-analyze the text for structure

-and then retell it

Now if someone has serious issues, like my ds did, that is not their starting point, kwim? You really have to know your dc and that's why people here get really cautious, because we have enough experience to know that telling you to do xyz is a *miss* if it's not the right starting point for your dc. My ds failed a preschool expressive language test when he was 10. He could recite pages out of books that he had listened to on audio so SLPs would say he was fine. He could "read" at an age appropriate level and do a multiple choice test that he could fake out with his IQ. His reading beyond comprehension was hyperlexia and it was hard to tease apart because of his massive strengths.

A book that was pivotal in working on his comprehension was https://www.amazon.com/Word-Callers-One-One-Research-Informed/dp/0325026939/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2LY7A8RKONUP1&keywords=word+callers+kelly+cartwright&qid=1694747435&sprefix=word+callers%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1  This book is a compendium of lots of strategies and things you can work on using materials you already have (or that are provided) to make a difference in comprehension. Some of it was really funky subtle. She had you play these GAMES using cards in the book. I don't remember what she called it, but I called it multi-processing. When you read, you have to process for language, for meaning, multiple ways. Some kids somehow don't get there, and the games (using the provided cards) worked on it with noticeable improvement. She has chapters full of easy to implement suggestions to help kids that struggle with comprehension. Some of it was stuff that I had *intuited* were helpful but didn't realize *why*. So that's another book to take a look at.

I just can't say oh pick up this reading comprehension curriculum or whatever, because it's not evidence based. The research does not bear that out. It bears out frontloading useful methods of analysis that connect with their brain, learning about and using text structures, and retelling the text. But to say oh use a VP lit guide or whatever, there is no evidence base for that. It's just schoolish stuff they do to make kids write. If your gut says NARRATE, your gut is right on. If you want to take your narration to the JET level, you bring to it these instructions on text structures, etc. etc. 

If you get Word Callers, buy it new or make sure it includes the cards.

Edited September 15, 2023 by PeterPan

[Ting Tang]

14 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It sounds like listening comprehension is ok but when he reads himself it’s a problem? That would indicate that he’s still using too much brain power decoding to read for meaning. If that’s what’s going on just more time buddy reading will be important and maybe some work on suffixes/prefixes etc. (I haven’t used AAR so I don’t know how far through it goes). If he has trouble with comprehending when he listens then work on vocab. Charlotte Mason style narration is excellent for developing comprehension as well. 
 

The other thing is it could be more a memory problem than a comprehension problem? Does he have trouble remembering in other areas? (this could be an issue given lead exposure). 
 

I like the concept of the reading rope 

There’s a few different versions but this overview gives you an idea

https://amplify.com/blog/science-of-reading/the-reading-rope-breaking-it-all-down/

For my tutor students with dyslexia etc it’s often the word recognition components that needs strengthening whereas kids with other diagnosis (asd, adhd etc) those can be quite strong while it’s the language comprehension strands that need stengthening. They can decode rapidly and perfectly without comprehension. And the there’s combined diagnosis, family support and so much more. But figuring out which threads are weakest can help you figure out which need most work.

Thank you so much for sharing this.  This is very helpful, from a brief look at the reading rope.  I am just having a hard time figuring out what the problem is exactly.  If he reads something brief, simple, and factual about an animal, it goes better.  If he is reading about people or characters, then it seems to be more complicated for him to sort out details.

[Ting Tang]

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

BTW, have you done the Signposts yet? The two books (fiction and nonfiction) are by Beers, so you can look them up. They have active FB groups with all kinds of resources. One teacher shared a google file she had made that had all the videos, etc. to work through the signposts at a bunch of levels. LOVED that, great stuff. 

https://www.amazon.com/Notice-Note-Strategies-Close-Reading/dp/032504693X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1ELBALUDLD6B5&keywords=notice+and+note+fiction&qid=1694747849&s=books&sprefix=notice+and+note+fiction%2Cstripbooks%2C102&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Nonfiction-Stances-Signposts-Strategies/dp/0325050805/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2DNLIOBCYTASR&keywords=beers+signposts&qid=1694747759&sprefix=beers+signposts%2Caps%2C116&sr=8-2

I haven't read Kylene Beers' newest book, but it's probably up your alley.

https://www.amazon.com/When-Kids-Read-What-Teachers-Second/dp/0325144591/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1694747789&refinements=p_27%3AKylene+Beers&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Kylene+Beers

When you frontload concepts like the Signposts or working quickly through all the components of a complete narrative, you're giving this pool of skills they can then apply to your models over the following weeks. In fact, if you look at that Forbes article I linked, it said the studies show that the MOST EFFECTIVE method of working on reading comprehension was to:

-teach multiple strategies

-analyze the text for structure

-and then retell it

Now if someone has serious issues, like my ds did, that is not their starting point, kwim? You really have to know your dc and that's why people here get really cautious, because we have enough experience to know that telling you to do xyz is a *miss* if it's not the right starting point for your dc. My ds failed a preschool expressive language test when he was 10. He could recite pages out of books that he had listened to on audio so SLPs would say he was fine. He could "read" at an age appropriate level and do a multiple choice test that he could fake out with his IQ. His reading beyond comprehension was hyperlexia and it was hard to tease apart because of his massive strengths.

A book that was pivotal in working on his comprehension was https://www.amazon.com/Word-Callers-One-One-Research-Informed/dp/0325026939/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2LY7A8RKONUP1&keywords=word+callers+kelly+cartwright&qid=1694747435&sprefix=word+callers%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1  This book is a compendium of lots of strategies and things you can work on using materials you already have (or that are provided) to make a difference in comprehension. Some of it was really funky subtle. She had you play these GAMES using cards in the book. I don't remember what she called it, but I called it multi-processing. When you read, you have to process for language, for meaning, multiple ways. Some kids somehow don't get there, and the games (using the provided cards) worked on it with noticeable improvement. She has chapters full of easy to implement suggestions to help kids that struggle with comprehension. Some of it was stuff that I had *intuited* were helpful but didn't realize *why*. So that's another book to take a look at.

I just can't say oh pick up this reading comprehension curriculum or whatever, because it's not evidence based. The research does not bear that out. It bears out frontloading useful methods of analysis that connect with their brain, learning about and using text structures, and retelling the text. But to say oh use a VP lit guide or whatever, there is no evidence base for that. It's just schoolish stuff they do to make kids write. If your gut says NARRATE, your gut is right on. If you want to take your narration to the JET level, you bring to it these instructions on text structures, etc. etc. 

If you get Word Callers, buy it new or make sure it includes the cards.

Thanks so much for your wealth of information again!  I am not familiar with any of this and will have a look.  I do think he struggles to be on grade level with comprehension, so we took some time after reading in our Canadian history book after each paragraph to discuss it, and I think that does help him.  What I would love, though, is for him to be able to read on his own and understand what he's read.  I feel like I cannot expect this from him at all.  I would love to get there with him.  Of course, as said before, I do not want to cover up a problem and not get a proper diagnosis.  I am not sure how lead poisoning will be factored into all of this.  But I also do not want to wait several months or a whole extra year of not helping him learn better, either.  I did find a service that can do this privately for a fraction of the typical cost, and that would be $1500.  I guess we can wait until our appointment next month to decide.  We filled out a few forms, none of which seemed terribly applicable to the situation.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you so much for sharing this.  This is very helpful, from a brief look at the reading rope.  I am just having a hard time figuring out what the problem is exactly.  If he reads something brief, simple, and factual about an animal, it goes better.  If he is reading about people or characters, then it seems to be more complicated for him to sort out details.

People are showing you the reading rope because it lets you see the myriad factors. You said you weren't open to evals and that no one should say evals. There are some things on the reading rope that are things a teacher would do in a school setting. There are some things on the reading rope that would be handled by an intervention specialist, and there are some things that would be handled by an SLP. 

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I am not sure how lead poisoning will be factored into all of this. 

Whoa, back up, he had lead poisoning?? And did he have a medical diagnosis of this and medical treatment? And are his levels currently considered safe and he's medically well?

Your insurance system should follow up and provide complete psych evals to look for the effects of this. I would DEMAND it.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

But I also do not want to wait several months or a whole extra year of not helping him learn better, either.  I did find a service that can do this privately for a fraction of the typical cost, and that would be $1500.  I guess we can wait until our appointment next month to decide.  We filled out a few forms, none of which seemed terribly applicable to the situation.  

What does that $1500 get you? Evals? 

If he had the medical incident with the lead exposure, I would think you would have evidence to compel your insurance to cover a full neuropsychological eval. 

Maybe sort through what this center does for testing, as they differ. Some places are academic intervention and use academic testing to determine placement and suspected weaknesses. Others are a full psychological eval, and psychs have varying levels of training. Medically, if he has had that exposure that could have affected his brain, I would be fighting for medical/insurance coverage for a full neuropsych eval. 

The things you are describing to us fall under areas that would be tested by an SLP and a psychologist. If the testing you're looking at is for academic tutoring, I would probably keep looking for psych or SLP evals. A neuropsych will do extra testing that can find some extra things, but in general psych testing is sort of your big picture of what is going on. It helps you find big picture issues and learn how his brain processes and works. SLP testing is going to be much more specific to how he processes and uses language.

Given what you've described, I suspect in the end you'll end up wanting both psych and SLP evals. If money is precious (which it always is!) or you want in FAST, the SLP testing, very thorough SLP testing, is the way to go. There are SLPs who specialize in literacy, which is exactly the complaint you have. They will typically own testing for everything from phonological processing to things that affect comprehension to social skills to executive function and they can tease apart what in his language issues is making it hard for him to comprehend his reading. An SLP is going to have those answers for you, so the trick is to spend the time to find someone who owns LOTS OF TESTS so they can run this super thorough testing.

If your $1500 testing is a neuropsych, they will typically spend 6-8 hours testing, doing IQ, achievement, and some screeners for language. It will be useful info, but it won't be quite as *actionable* as the SLP evals. If you spent $600-800 on SLP evals with the right person, you'd answer the language questions you're asking. 

You're probably going to want both, but you may end up prioritizing or sequencing. The SLP will usually be much faster to get into. If you can get into a psych fast, RUN.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you so much for sharing this.  This is very helpful, from a brief look at the reading rope.  I am just having a hard time figuring out what the problem is exactly.  If he reads something brief, simple, and factual about an animal, it goes better.  If he is reading about people or characters, then it seems to be more complicated for him to sort out details.

This is likely narrative language or at least social/pragmatic language messing up the narrative language. 

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Whoa, back up, he had lead poisoning?? And did he have a medical diagnosis of this and medical treatment? And are his levels currently considered safe and he's medically well?

Your insurance system should follow up and provide complete psych evals to look for the effects of this. I would DEMAND it.

He might also be eligible with that diagnosis for your state’s children with medical handicaps program. Best kept secret ever around here. In our state, it’s tiered—diagnosis means automatic coverage for diagnosis and monitoring of the condition. Depending on income level and family medical bills, it covers even more.

It functions as secondary insurance by covering anything that allowed in those tiers if your main insurance won’t or if your deductible hasn’t been met for your regular insurance.

Here you can be in the program and be on Medicaid too.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

We filled out a few forms, none of which seemed terribly applicable to the situation.  

Then maybe they're not running the evals you need. 

I'm just saying, we all have only so many dollars. Slow down, do not go fast on this. Take one week, research your options. And you know you can keep that appointment if you want, but take a week and look around at all the options you have within say a 3-4 hour drive. I would be willing to drive 3-4 hours for a REALLY EXCELLENT SLP eval. When you find the right person, you'll know. Ask them upfront what tests they would run on a kid like this and let them wow you by saying what they own. Let them show they're your person to help you sort this out, kwim?

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

.  But I also do not want to wait several months or a whole extra year of not helping him learn better, either. 

Ok, I'll give you a chaste piece of advice, and you can come back in a year and say how it went. 😁

Read to him.

Every day, several hours a day. Just you and him and a pile of books. Read to him. Look at the reading rope and see what this addresses. 80% of reading comprehension is prior knowledge. Reading rope also shows syntax. You can go to hub.lexile.com and look up the lexiles of a variety of books you can read him right now that you *know* he engages with. This controls for syntax and lets you know the syntax is within reach and something he can repeat and use in his retellings. Reading rope shows narration. You read and you have him narrate. You can narrate by the page, by the book. You can narrate together! You can take turns retelling the book using the pictures. You can watch the video (did we link it?) to learn about narrative language and you can learn how to use your books better to work on his narrative language.

Vocabulary is in the reading rope, and as you read you will work in vocabulary at his level. My ds has vocabulary is a strength, so he just needs to use specific vocabulary in a sentence. Your dc might need maybe some pre-instruction of 3 words to notice, retell the story using them, etc.

A LOT of what you need to do you can do using picture books that you read together. It will cost you nothing, it will be evidence based, it will be good instruction, and it will be FUN.

I did that for several years with my ds. 1-2 hours a day. Seriously. I actually need to get my act together and make another pile. Well I say that, and right now I'm reading to him a pile of books on Rome. I was clearing out books and found more things he'd enjoy and he's almost 15!!! It's not like reading to them ends at some point. It is filling his engine with prior knowledge, with syntax, with narrative language comprehension, with social thinking, with vocabulary, with all the things he needs. #1 thing you can do as a mom without evals, without stress, without cost. Better than curriculum. 

So all the info we give you, like the Signposts, Mindwings, etc. etc. is stuff you use to *enrich* that reading aloud. Does this make sense? So it takes your CM bent and it says take it farther, go doctoral level with it, master the potential. Be the YODA of read alouds.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

If you want to do paired reading to work on comprehension, endurance, etc., you will want to use texts that have visual support, small amounts, etc. and strategies like popcorn reading, taking turns, etc. Comics are great for this and I can tell you we have an SLP who reads comics with my ds. Seriously. This is not a time to be hoity toity and say what is best, kwim? You want comprehension and comfort and whatever it takes to get there is good. I'm a great lover of Dogman btw.

National Geographic Reach has a series of grade leveled reading texts that alternate fiction/nonfiction using science and social science themes. He may find this much more interesting than a traditional reading text. My ds actually legit enjoys them, though you're not going to see him reading them on his own. 🤣 Personally, I would wait and try those AFTER you get thorough SLP evals. You don't know what you're dealing with, and why have a good series tainted by a bad experience when you didn't realize what was going on? They'll be just as good if you wait 3 months, get evals, get a month of some kind of targeted intervention going. THEN start into your cool materials that he'll be in a better position to enjoy.

You can see how far down the Reach series goes. I assume down to grade 1 or 2? I think we started with the grade 3 book. Stellar, stellar series. When I've shown it to our intervention specialist with the school she's always very wowed. 

[Ting Tang]

@PeterPan so, when I was pregnant with him, we found out my oldest had a very high blood lead level through a routine screening—-so high, they thought it was a lab error. My level was 26 but got down to a 4 at his birth, and his level would’ve been a match. Now, it doesn’t take much lead to poison a young child. We think it affected him differently than it did our oldest. My oldest underwent medical chelation, but this little guy had his exposure stopped. I honestly think the forms were filled out are generic state forms. I’m not sure why a rising K kid would be dismissed from his IEP before starting to learn to read..   in the meantime, he has improved his reading, and we either popcorn read, or I read to him. Thank you so much for all of this. I read it all. I’m just not very eloquent talking about it all. I figure if he us at least listening, he is learning. But I also don’t want to do him a disservice. 

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

medical chelation,

Is that something they do much later to pull it from the tissues, or does it tend to be just in the moment to bring down current blood levels?

That sounds like it was a scary situation! I'm really no help, even though I've done chelation myself. It sounds like you're pursuing all the angles, which is all you can do.

[Ting Tang]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Is that something they do much later to pull it from the tissues, or does it tend to be just in the moment to bring down current blood levels?

That sounds like it was a scary situation! I'm really no help, even though I've done chelation myself. It sounds like you're pursuing all the angles, which is all you can do.

All it does is remove it from your blood.  Lead stays in your bones for a very long time and puts you at risk for many other diseases later in life.  There are foods that can help, so you can naturally chelate, too. My son was in tears two nights ago discussing his reading comprehension.  My husband is skeptical of the upcoming appointment---most of the paperwork was to screen for anxiety, and there was an identical form for my son to fill out.  He's a 10 year old, and I had to ask him question such as, "when you feel frightened, do you feel as though you are choking?"  I feel like completing the form was traumatic.  There was just one question on reading difficulty. ETA - I just checked out those National Geographic materials, and they do look great, even for my younger kids.  We can wait a bit before experimenting with interventions.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Ting Tang

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

"  I feel like completing the form was traumatic. 

Then why are you doing this??? It's not like insurance pays for evals over and over. When you get a psych eval and the system (insurance, whatever) pays for it, that was a big opportunity. You don't want to waste it on a poor fit.

Yes, psychs are NOT language experts. SLPs are the one running language. A psych is going to look at things like ADHD, anxiety, SLDs, etc. Some psychs do a better job than others. You DO NOT have to go forward with evals that are not answering the questions you have or with a psych who is a poor fit. You can push PAUSE on this and do it in a month or two months or whatever.

The SLP is the one who will answer language questions. It doesn't seem like the questions the psych is trying to answer are the questions you're asking. Don't let yourself be bullied. It's ok to STOP, take your time, think this through, look at options, and feel confident.

[Ting Tang]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Then why are you doing this??? It's not like insurance pays for evals over and over. When you get a psych eval and the system (insurance, whatever) pays for it, that was a big opportunity. You don't want to waste it on a poor fit.

Yes, psychs are NOT language experts. SLPs are the one running language. A psych is going to look at things like ADHD, anxiety, SLDs, etc. Some psychs do a better job than others. You DO NOT have to go forward with evals that are not answering the questions you have or with a psych who is a poor fit. You can push PAUSE on this and do it in a month or two months or whatever.

The SLP is the one who will answer language questions. It doesn't seem like the questions the psych is trying to answer are the questions you're asking. Don't let yourself be bullied. It's ok to STOP, take your time, think this through, look at options, and feel confident.

Thanks very much for this.  Yes, there was just a tiny section regarding school work.  Also, we are curious about him being on the spectrum, but lead poisoning mimics those symptoms, too.  I'm going to see if I can research finding someone.  

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks very much for this.  Yes, there was just a tiny section regarding school work.  Also, we are curious about him being on the spectrum, but lead poisoning mimics those symptoms, too.  I'm going to see if I can research finding someone.  

If you're asking and you're bringing it up, yes it's a valid question. And if you're asking how to get good evals for that, I'm going to suggest you look for someone who does the ADOS. The ADOS requires specialized, additional training, and not every psych does it. If they don't do the ADOS (a gold standard situational interview process) then they're left with things like the GARS and paper forms which I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE. I hate filling them out and I hate that some of them (the GARS) are just aggravating tools that rely on observations for a kid who probably isn't having a lot of people interacting with them. There are some better forms, but I still don't like them for homeschoolers. Forms *plus* ADOS can be really good.

You also have to watch, because psychs can sort of have a niche. Like we went to one who is *exceptionally* well known in our area. In fact, this psych's name is probably on some of the forms you're filling out. Well regarded in that specialization and COMPLETELY MISSING THE BOAT on the questions I was asking. Used old GARS forms, blew us off, gave us bad evals that took me YEARS to undo the damage from.

So I'm warning you emphatically that you will NOT like what happens if you rush into evals. What does the other parent say when you say wow I think those didn't catch anything, let's pay to try again, kwim? Then you have conflicts and disagreements. 

When something as important, nuanced, and complex as autism is on the table, you really want to slow down and make sure you have the right person.

Edited September 16, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

mimics those symptoms, to

Does the difference in diagnosis change funding or therapies or access? What changes?

Fwiw, if I were just like hey throw spaghetti at the wall and making a suggestion, I would proceed on the assumption that BOTH are present. Then do what fits both. Do it all.

[SFisher]

The previous posters are way more informed than I am…  but I have spent the last few years teaching two boys to read. My boys had learning needs of their own that don’t align with your kid, but the situation none the less forced me to learn a lot about how reading is learned. 

I have a thought for you. What about using a lot of audiobooks? From your earlier comments, it seemed like he has better comprehension when you read aloud.

When a child’s skills don’t synch up, it can be helpful to work on them separately. So, listening to audiobooks to build comprehension skills, and using more manageable texts for reading out loud and working on fluency, prosody, decoding, etc. There’s a lot that goes into reading comprehension - prosody, vocabulary, etc. pulling those apart might make it more manageable for your child and also let you dissect where he’s struggling and put more support in place. If he’s only practicing comprehension when he’s reading to himself… his comprehension skills are being held back behind his decoding/fluency ability. 

[SFisher]

Another thing that might be helpful is to note that when a child reads with expression - the sentence with an exclamation point sounds exciting! If they change volume and tone depending on what they are reading, if they add pauses at punctuation - this all means that they are comprehending while they are reading. If he is not doing this yet, keep working on decoding, listen to people who read beautifully - audiobooks!, Robert munch is a really explicit example of someone using tone, rhythm, expression when he reads - and is really fun. 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, SFisher said:

Another thing that might be helpful is to note that when a child reads with expression - the sentence with an exclamation point sounds exciting! If they change volume and tone depending on what they are reading, if they add pauses at punctuation - this all means that they are comprehending while they are reading. If he is not doing this yet, keep working on decoding, listen to people who read beautifully - audiobooks!, Robert munch is a really explicit example of someone using tone, rhythm, expression when he reads - and is really fun. 

And oddly enough, some kids are backwards to this—they use the punctuation to read with expression and hearing themselves out loud then clies them in to meaning. My DS was this way. 

[Ting Tang]

I wondered if you ladies would know.  I decided to look into another testing path through our special education office. The psychologist said that in Illinois, we fall under the umbrella of private education, so we are not eligible for services.  Is that typical?  I am not terribly upset but thought it might be a better route than what we currently have in place before I go the private route.

[EKS]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:33 PM, Ting Tang said:

I am not sure if it is because he is still putting his energy into deciphering words? 

I suspect this is at least part of the problem.  Have him read aloud to you (just you, without siblings listening in so that there is no embarrassment) every day from books that are easy for him to read.  He should work up to being able to read for 20-30 minutes at a time.  Gradually increase the reading level of the books until they are in line with his cognitive level.

The other part of comprehension (which is different, by the way, from memory, so if you're testing his comprehension, he should be allowed to look back at the passage/chapter/whatever it was he read when answering questions about it) is knowing stuff.  So be sure to read aloud to him from high quality fiction and nonfiction that stretches him (but not too much).

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

I suspect this is at least part of the problem.  Have him read aloud to you (just you, without siblings listening in so that there is no embarrassment) every day from books that are easy for him to read.  He should work up to being able to read for 20-30 minutes at a time.  Gradually increase the reading level of the books until they are in line with his cognitive level.

The other part of comprehension (which is different, by the way, from memory, so if you're testing his comprehension, he should be allowed to look back at the passage/chapter/whatever it was he read when answering questions about it) is knowing stuff.  So be sure to read aloud to him from high quality fiction and nonfiction that stretches him (but not too much).

Thanks very much! I do think he should be able to look back. The CM approach seems to want narrations after a single, attentive reading. I understand why, but I wonder if for kids who struggle if the rules should be bent so-to-speak as his issue isn’t just attention-based. 

[EKS]

11 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks very much! I do think he should be able to look back. The CM approach seems to want narrations after a single, attentive reading. I understand why, but I wonder if for kids who struggle if the rules should be bent so-to-speak as his issue isn’t just attention-based. 

SWB's writing books for elementary level had this sort of thing as well.  There would be a passage, usually with a bunch of forgettable information--such as all of the food items that someone took on a picnic--that they then asked specific questions about (I believe in preparation for writing a narration, but I'm not sure).  It was ridiculous!  I couldn't even do them and my reading comprehension level is about as high as is possible to have.

It's important to think about why you are having your student do whatever it is you are asking them to do.  Why are you having him do narrations?  Not why does CM think they are necessary, but why do you want him to do them?  If you can't answer this question in a way that sits well with you and your goals for your student, it's time to change what you're doing.

One alternative to narrations, the one I prefer, is to discuss the reading with the student.  It's great if you can come up with a few open ended questions about it to focus the conversation (and even better to make it seem like they just occurred to you!), but not absolutely necessary.  Either way, sit with him and talk about what was read.  Let him look back if he needs to, but what you're more interested in here is what he found interesting, what he found memorable.  If you want him to write something up about it, take notes on your discussion--you take the notes (I used a small whiteboard for this purpose and then propped it in front of the student at his desk while he wrote).  If he isn't ready to write on his own, but you still want some physical output, he can dictate a paragraph from the notes you've taken.

Eventually you'll want him to be able to write a summary, which is somewhat different from a narration, in that it is usually focused on some aspect of the source text and is part of a larger piece.  Anyone who is writing this sort of summary is not going to read the text once and never look back.  

I'd argue, frankly, that the whole narration thing is just a way to avoid coming up with good questions to focus discussion with students and, actually, to avoid discussion with students altogether.  In fact, narrations don't even require the teacher to have read the source text themselves.  This is appealing for homeschool teachers because it is really difficult to read everything our children read, especially if we have multiple children.  But just because it's easier doesn't make it better, and it certainly doesn't make it the gold standard.

[kbutton]

15 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I wondered if you ladies would know.  I decided to look into another testing path through our special education office. The psychologist said that in Illinois, we fall under the umbrella of private education, so we are not eligible for services.  Is that typical?  I am not terribly upset but thought it might be a better route than what we currently have in place before I go the private route.

My understanding is that the child find part of IDEA is a national law. They have to identify children who are exceptional regardless of where they are schooled. They do not have to provide services though.

Your request needs to be made in writing to be official (email counts). You state that you’d like your child to be assessed for the purposes of identifying a need for special education. They might decide that you don’t have enough evidence of a disability to do testing (unlikely with lead issues in the mix), but they have to gather enough initial information to say yes or no. At that meeting, the most important one, you list out all the areas where you see deficits and consent to testing. If you don’t mention it or realize what category of testing it belongs in, you can inadvertently forfeit your right to that testing. For example, the first ever time I did this, I didn’t realize social skills (and a host of other things) fell into the speech and language category. I thought speech was articulation and that anything else was academic. Thankfully, I asked what would be covered in each category (vision, PT, OT, speech, etc.).

*private school kids also use IDEA to get evaluated either in their district of residence, the district the private school is in, or jointly

Edited September 28, 2023 by kbutton

[kbutton]

28 minutes ago, EKS said:

SWB's writing books for elementary level had this sort of thing as well.  There would be a passage, usually with a bunch of forgettable information--such as all of the food items that someone took on a picnic--that they then asked specific questions about (I believe in preparation for writing a narration, but I'm not sure).  It was ridiculous!  I couldn't even do them and my reading comprehension level is about as high as is possible to have.

It's important to think about why you are having your student do whatever it is you are asking them to do.  Why are you having him do narrations?  Not why does CM think they are necessary, but why do you want him to do them?  If you can't answer this question in a way that sits well with you and your goals for your student, it's time to change what you're doing.

One alternative to narrations, the one I prefer, is to discuss the reading with the student.  It's great if you can come up with a few open ended questions about it to focus the conversation (and even better to make it seem like they just occurred to you!), but not absolutely necessary.  Either way, sit with him and talk about what was read.  Let him look back if he needs to, but what you're more interested in here is what he found interesting, what he found memorable.  If you want him to write something up about it, take notes on your discussion--you take the notes (I used a small whiteboard for this purpose and then propped it in front of the student at his desk while he wrote).  If he isn't ready to write on his own, but you still want some physical output, he can dictate a paragraph from the notes you've taken.

Eventually you'll want him to be able to write a summary, which is somewhat different from a narration, in that it is usually focused on some aspect of the source text and is part of a larger piece.  Anyone who is writing this sort of summary is not going to read the text once and never look back.  

I'd argue, frankly, that the whole narration thing is just a way to avoid coming up with good questions to focus discussion with students and, actually, to avoid discussion with students altogether.  In fact, narrations don't even require the teacher to have read the source text themselves.  This is appealing for homeschool teachers because it is really difficult to read everything our children read, especially if we have multiple children.  But just because it's easier doesn't make it better, and it certainly doesn't make it the gold standard.

This deeply resonates with me, and I also disagree that narration is entirely optional.

If you have a kid with a narrative language disorder, you find that out when the kid can’t narrate. Narrating is not summarizing. They are different.

Narration involves linking up critical thinking with language. That is less of a thing in summarizing. Sometimes we use narration skills too with a summary, and that’s what happens when we read factual information and draw conclusions, make assertions, and hash out and support a thesis.

The bridge from narrative language to academic language requires a solid basis of narration. Some kids get this from life or just following examples, but for kids that do not, narrative language absolutely stops the entire language train on the track. It might not even be all that obvious that a kid can’t narrate daily life events except in hindsight.

If you aren’t narrating from well-written resources, build it into life skills.

I hope that makes sense.

Edited September 28, 2023 by kbutton
Autocorrect

[EKS]

28 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Narration involves linking up critical thinking with language. That is less of a thing in summarizing. Sometimes we use narration skills too with a summary, and that’s what happens when we read factual information and draw conclusions, make assertions, and hash out and support a thesis.

I have to admit, I don't understand what you've written here.  

The difference between narration and summary in my view (which could be wrong) is that narration is a lower level skill than summarizing is.  With narration, the student relates back what they remember from a text.  More broadly, narration could be relating a story from something that happened in their lives.  It is not required that the student analyze the text (or the real life event) to find the main points--what comes out is what the student found important or interesting enough to remember.  With a summary, on the other hand, the student does need to find the main points, and depending on how the summary is being used, these main points may change a bit.  In academic writing, it is very common for one to need to relate a summary of part of a text or one aspect of an argument, so there can be multiple ways to summarize a text depending on how the summary is being used.  So I would argue that critical thinking is necessarily used when writing a summary and not so much when one is narrating.  This is why WTM has first graders narrating sections from SOTW and not summarizing them.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

I have to admit, I don't understand what you've written here.  

The difference between narration and summary in my view (which could be wrong) is that narration is a lower level skill than summarizing is.  With narration, the student relates back what they remember from a text.  More broadly, narration could be relating a story from something that happened in their lives.  It is not required that the student analyze the text (or the real life event) to find the main points--what comes out is what the student found important or interesting enough to remember.  With a summary, on the other hand, the student does need to find the main points, and depending on how the summary is being used, these main points may change a bit.  In academic writing, it is very common for one to need to relate a summary of part of a text or one aspect of an argument, so there can be multiple ways to summarize a text depending on how the summary is being used.  So I would argue that critical thinking is necessarily used when writing a summary and not so much when one is narrating.  This is why WTM has first graders narrating sections from SOTW and not summarizing them.

Both narrating and summarizing can be point by point or scaled smaller or larger or a paraphrase of what is presented. Point by point=paraphrase; scaled smaller could even be super short like boy meets girl and lives happily ever after; scaled larger could mean embellishing a tale/story or elaborating on evidence by drawing a conclusion.

I think of summarizing as being parallel but different, probably directly due to the SLP materials we refer to. They tie everything back to narrative language. That’s why I said it bridges to academic language skills—you can summarize at low levels that aren’t higher up the thinking chain.

I am using narrative language as I understand it from speech language materials that demonstrate how it’s used for all levels of Bloom’s taxonomy and with whatever system that is more popular now but parallel to Bloom’s (can’t remember the name).

The way you are using summarizing is probably the way that the materials I use refer to academic language that is based on the narrative language skills. Those critical thinking skills come directly from narrative language skills.

My main point is that if people cannot use critical thinking with writing, they almost certainly missed something way back in narrative language development (and this is true with my own kid as well as friends’ kids). If you view WTM style narration as not necessary, you risk missing this problem.

I could’ve written every word of your opinion on WTM style narration a few years ago. It meant that I missed my son’s language problem. So did everyone else, and he’s been tested and evaluated over and over. Everything but a language problem was pinned down as the answer from EF issues to character issues. The kid couldn’t retell anything reliably, but his actual writing skills and comprehension were good (but stayed at the same level for years in spite of being profoundly gifted). 

[kbutton]

My son could summarize point by point but not scale it and still include the crux of the passage. It took working on narrative language to fix that.

[EKS]

32 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I could’ve written every word of your opinion on WTM style narration a few years ago. It meant that I missed my son’s language problem. So did everyone else, and he’s been tested and evaluated over and over. Everything but a language problem was pinned down as the answer from EF issues to character issues. The kid couldn’t retell anything reliably, but his actual writing skills and comprehension were good (but stayed at the same level for years in spite of being profoundly gifted). 

Interesting.  One of my kids has dyslexia and the other has ADHD (that was just diagnosed at age 21).  Both are also HG+. They both had trouble with the sorts of comprehension questions I talked about above as well as narration proper, but in somewhat different ways.  Not only that, I'm pretty sure that I have both dyslexia and ADHD, which might explain my own problems with comprehension and narration. 

[kbutton]

26 minutes ago, EKS said:

Interesting.  One of my kids has dyslexia and the other has ADHD (that was just diagnosed at age 21).  Both are also HG+. They both had trouble with the sorts of comprehension questions I talked about above as well as narration proper, but in somewhat different ways.  Not only that, I'm pretty sure that I have both dyslexia and ADHD, which might explain my own problems with comprehension and narration. 

A lot of assignments and evaluations have a certain amount of artificiality to them that trip up gifted thinkers and ND people IMO. But the assignments and measures themselves are there to catch actual difficulties. Those realities don’t come together smoothly always!

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, EKS said:

I'd argue, frankly, that the whole narration thing is just a way to avoid coming up with good questions to focus discussion with students and, actually, to avoid discussion with students altogether. 

Yes, in the homeschool community that is how "narration" is casually used. That is just a lack of education about actual narrative language development and the tremendous progress that has been made in making narrative language intervention explicit for those with language disabilities.

[EKS]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:26 PM, PeterPan said:

Yes, in the homeschool community that is how "narration" is casually used.

And I would assume that this is how CM was using it as well.  Not that she was actively trying to avoid discussion (though perhaps she was!), but that she wasn't promoting narration out of a concern for narrative language development, as my understanding is that she was teaching (mostly) typically developing children.

[PeterPan]

15 hours ago, EKS said:

And I would assume that this is how CM was using it as well.  Not that she was actively trying to avoid discussion (though perhaps she was!), but that she wasn't promoting narration out of a concern for narrative language development, as my understanding is that she was teaching (mostly) typically developing children.

I don't know. I have always taken her to be someone ahead of her time, and it's clear that promoting narrative language helps ALL people, not just those with language disabilities. That's kind of like the natural speller, do I teach spelling thing. Most kids are going to benefit from *some* instruction, and some will need a ton more and more explicit and others will get there seemingly on their own. But yeah, I just took her as someone ahead of her time. 

[Ting Tang]

Yes, the purpose of narration with the Charlotte Mason approach is to make children be attentive and be responsible for their own education.  They are only allowed to listen or read it once, then they must narrate.  They may not look back in the book (which was encouraged in my son's AAR sequence).  If they narrate poorly, they are reminded they can try harder and do better next time.  From what I have researched, it was not about narrative language development.  But even when it comes to the Charlotte Mason approach to spelling, there has been some recent discovery that perhaps children were also able to do spelling in the more traditional way---so I wonder about this whole narration thing!  

I do sense that the psychologist was wrong in telling me he couldn't help me.  But he also works inside public schools. Ironically, we are not using public schools because our local one is more of a hindrance.  I

Edited October 1, 2023 by Ting Tang