My kids can't memorize

[mateosbaby]

I tried searching the forums, but I'm not finding much about this.  I have a couple of children who were adopted internationally.  They've been home for 5 years (now 11yo) and 8 years (now 18yo), so language acquisition isn't really the problem anymore.  The problem lies in their processing and memory.  We've done neuropsych evals, and they simply cannot memorize.  This hinders almost everything we try to do: basic phonics rules (the 18yo reads at a 5th grade level, but comprehension is 3rd/4th), spelling, writing, math facts & problem-solving steps (the 18yo has never gotten past 2nd grade math, and the 11yo can barely do Kindergarten math), and of course vocabulary across the curriculum.  I have tried so many methods to help them, so many educational philosophies.  I am loving doing classical overall (I'm not a strict classical, but mostly), although I haven't dared try a foreign language with them, not even their home language.  But I just can't get anything memorized with them.  When they finally get one thing, they forget previous things, and when we go back to work on those, they forget the new things they had.  It's like their brains can't hold more than a couple of things at a time, so we can never keep going because we spend so much time reviewing what they had previously "learned."  Any ideas or words of wisdom for me?  I'm not new to homeschooling - I've graduated my oldest (in her 2nd year of college) and have 10 children overall, both bio and adopted - but these two...  I'm just stumped.

Thanks, all!
Sara

[Rosie_0801]

Trauma really stinks, doesn't it?

Try googling 'CSMP Materials.' We supplemented, but without that program, my daughter wouldn't have learned maths. It uses some non-verbal techniques so it may be something different to try.

If they can learn the ASL alphabet (I assume you are North American,) try using that as a bridge to writing for their spelling lessons.

You might try teaching the syllabary for reading, if you've not done that before. See the lessons on thephonicspage.org

And otherwise teach them as many hands on skills as possible.

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, mateosbaby said:

We've done neuropsych evals, and they simply cannot memorize.

Did you do a language evaluation as well? Neuropsych evals rarely include a full language evaluation. At their ages, looking for an SLP who works with teens with autism is probably a good place to go...there are a subset of kids who get overlooked early on for language issues, and it's usually kids with ASD who seem fine until they aren't. Because of that, the SLPs who work with them are the ones most likely to have the correct tests for older kids; many SLPs work only with younger children. Additionally, SLPs who work with teens on the spectrum will be well-versed in figuring out individual patterns of strength and weakness for clients with splinter skills.

Language acquisition is not the same as using language; it's entirely possible that they came to you with deficits in their own languages. I have kids with very high IQs, both of whom test really well on the common language tasks on a neuropsych evaluation (one has scores in the extended norm range on the WISC). They also both have language difficulties that show up with proper testing--profound but narrow/specific issues. 

I would also rule out visual processing issues (convergence, divergence, etc.) with a developmental optometrist if you haven't done so already (covd.org). It might be worth trying an auditory processing screening as well (igaps.org). 

Otherwise, I think Rosie's suggestions are very much worth a try--multisensory and hands-on is worth a try.

[Storygirl]

You don't need to share details, if you don't want to, but I'm wonder what the results of the neuropsych evaluations showed. Did they include a list of recommended therapies and resources for you in the reports? Do they have any specific diagnoses? What might work for someone with dyslexia might not work for someone with a lower IQ or autism, for example. Sometimes those score reports contain a lot of information that you have to process over time, so you might discover more, if you reread them. Some people choose to share details about the testing results here on the Learning Challenges board, because some posters here have become familiar with what score results might suggest. If you were to choose to do that, you could edit the scores out later, if desired, for privacy.

My DD17 with dyslexia couldn't memorize phonics rules until she had dyslexia remediation. She still has not mastered math facts. She has accommodations for using a calculator. Her neuropsych also recommended things like having a notecard with the steps for math problems on it, so that she can work the problems without having to have the steps memorized. Word banks for science, so that she can learn the science concepts even without having all of the science terms memorized. And so on. Sometimes you can provide memory aids that allow the student to move forward in their conceptual knowledge, even if they can't remember some things.

But that is a different issue than a comprehension issue, where the student does not understand the concepts necessary to learn the material. My DS18 has problems with comprehension -- in reading, math, and across all subjects -- that keeps him at a junior high level of understanding. His neuropsych evaluations and diagnoses help us understand why this is the case, which has then enabled us to help him better.

So the reason for the memory issues can sometimes be (and should be) found by the evaluations.

My four children were all adopted internationally as well, though as infants. I agree that there could be hidden language issues, especially if they had no exposure to English before ages 6 and 10. Sometimes it's hard to ferret out what issues are "learning English" issues and which are related to possible language disabilities, during testing. Updating the language testing, as Kbutton suggests, would probably be helpful.

What educational resources have you been using to teach them? You probably need specially designed programs for intervention.

 

[PeterPan]

On 2/24/2023 at 11:47 AM, mateosbaby said:

so language acquisition isn't really the problem anymore. 

Have you had recent, thorough SLP evals on these kids? If it's not language, the neuropsych evals should have explained what is going on. (brain damage, low IQ, prenatal exposures, whatever) 

Have you been referred to a geneticist to see if they can find anything syndromal? You could be having strokes, absence seizures, etc. that could cause the brain damage. You could talk with your doctor about referrals.

On 2/24/2023 at 11:47 AM, mateosbaby said:

18yo reads at a 5th grade level, but comprehension is 3rd/4th)

Back to language. What is your testing showing is the explanation for this? It's the literal definition of hyperlexia (reading beyond comprehension) which is a language issue. 

The neuropsych testing would typically do screeners for language like the CELF which uses multiple choice, provides models, and has serious, serious issues with reliability. It's all about the statistics and in the weeds (sensitivity, specificity, cut scores), but basically it under-identifies kids with issues and the SLPs know it. Still the ps and neuropsychs use them because it's this quick, dirty, one hour tool that lets them claim they "tested" for language issues. 

I'm no expert on the types of things that might have happened (prenatal exposures, etc.) before they came to you. It's well know that trauma affects narrative language development. It also affects interoception, which interestingly weaves right into language if you think about it hard enough. So you have plenty of flags for language and reasons to want thorough SLP evals with someone who specializes in hard cases for expressive language. I'm just surprised there aren't more clues in your psych evals.

For your own purposes, you might read Carwright's book Word Callers or Drawing a Blank to see if they give you any sense of directions to look for evals and intervention. How are they at sentence repetition? Both sentence and nonsense repetition scores are linked to language comprehension, so difficulty with it can be a strong indicator of an underlying language problem. The vocabulary challenges again hint at language problems. Intervention is partly about brain organization and this is something the SLPs will look at. Brain organization is really a pandora's box, sigh. 

On the most basic level, how was their working memory? Are they on ADHD meds and any other suggested meds for their diagnoses? Is their stress low? Trauma creates fragmented memories in the brain and stress impedes learning. Stress can be from a situation or stress can be their internal biology. Some people find meds for ADHD make a significant difference in the dc's ability to learn. We've had multiple posts here about kids who finally started reading in their teens when they began ADHD meds. I also follow a blog Epiphany that goes into extreme detail on complex explanations for learning challenges. If you want a deep dive into chemistry that could be affecting learning, that would be your place. I have no clue how the guy gets a hold of the meds he tries with his ds, but his research is astonishing and sort of cutting edge. https://www.epiphanyasd.com

Fwiw, I think when you've exhausted all the basic and more common explanations, you're left sorting through less common ones. So I don't know what's going on in your case, but those are some of the things you could sort of cross off the list (via thorough evals) as you try to figure it out. Are these dc bio siblings to give you a pattern to their similarities? Or were they from the same facility with similar care patterns? The one thing I wouldn't do is trust a neuropsych alone, because their evals just are not thorough enough to cross whole fields off your list. A good SLP who owns enough tests (which means in a major city, a specialist in this) could run 3-4 hours of testing or more just on language and dig in and possibly find some things. If there's nothing there, then I'd be wondering about a neurology referral or genetics to get some better explanations. 

Are they qualified with your county board and getting disability services, transition services, etc.? At some point, when you can't fix things you go into how do we deal with this and make life good. Language challenges like this are on the list of qualifying conditions in our state, so you probably have enough paperwork and evidence at this point to get some of them qualified. I'd be concerned about how these challenges affect employability, independence, etc.

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

A good SLP who owns enough tests (which means in a major city, a specialist in this) could run 3-4 hours of testing or more just on language and dig in and possibly find some things.

Truth--a good report can be almost as long and detailed as a neuropsych report! 

13 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are they qualified with your county board and getting disability services, transition services, etc.? At some point, when you can't fix things you go into how do we deal with this and make life good. Language challenges like this are on the list of qualifying conditions in our state, so you probably have enough paperwork and evidence at this point to get some of them qualified. I'd be concerned about how these challenges affect employability, independence, etc.

Yes, for sure. And those services usually require people to be identified before age 22. Sometimes it also helps (a great deal) to use the school system to get the paper trail started. It's not necessary, but it's often how it's expected to go, and therefore, it can be a smoother path.