The MCT Lang Arts Thread

[Green Bean]

I thought it would be nice to gather everyone’s thoughts on MCT in one place. So please share your reasons for choosing, experiences, hacks, etc. for using MCT. Let’s learn together!

I found this YouTube video where he explains Poodle level.

The channel itself has some good videos explaining the whole thing, too.

I shared in another thread that I tried Island many years ago with my 2nd oldest. I was super bummed he turned his nose up at it as I was looking forward to using it. Life moved on and I never picked it up again for any of the others. Now that Little Man is getting old enough for Lang Arts, I’m using it!

Edited January 12, 2023 by Green Bean
Added some thoughts

[Ting Tang]

We are using the entire Town level this year.  I also bought the Poodle books, but they are more supplemental.  

I really do like Town for my son.  He is my challenging student, and he is not really interested in doing a lot of school work as a 5th grader.  Cathy Duffy said the curriculum is geared towards motivated students (it is for gifted students); however, because it is so concise and deep, I feel we are getting a lot out of it for our time investment.  The writing has less guidance, and there isn't a whole lot of assigned literature.  That could be the "downside" for some.  If you have a child who likes Roman history and culture, it's great---if you have one who doesn't, it might not be as enjoyable.  

[Clemsondana]

My older used the first 6 levels, and my younger used through Voyage (I think that's the 4th?).  We generally used the suggested schedule for the first 4.  For the last 2, student was taking a co-op English class that involved reading lit and writing about it, so we did 1/2 of the MCT program each year - grammar and vocab one year, poetry and taking a look at the writing section the next.  Older was always reading good books and lit, so I wasn't worried about there not being a lot in the earlier levels. Kid did do one of the book trilogies one year.  

I got the program as an interesting and pleasant way to do grammar and vocab, and it certainly worked for that.  If a kid needs more practice at the details - things like punctuation - we found Language Mechanic and Editor in Chief, both from Critical Thinking Company - to be good.  The biggest benefit of MCT turned out to be unexpected - it was an appreciation for language usage.  Essay Voyage talks about it, and all of the poetry books emphasize it.  We are STEM people and, despite doing well in English in school, I had never seen any of this.  I is now something that I notice everywhere - word cadence, word selection, word combinations that evoke images due to the sound of the words, strong endings for emphasis, etc.  

[Green Bean]

I’m about to finish Poodle Knows What? with some of mine. I admit it’s a bit jumbly but makes sense because this was intended to be a fun read more than anything else.

[Shoeless]

We loved Island and Town. Voyage was where we started to lose interest. Poodle wasn't written when we started. 

My son loved the quirkiness of Island and Town. We also worked through Beast Academy at that time. All those quirky characters were right up his alley. 

We still use the grammar and poetry parts of MCT. I dropped the essay and vocabulary parts because they were so dull!  I don't remember which level it was, but there was a book that presented an essay by Cervantes and the instructions were basically "Observe how marvelous this essay is! Now, go forth and write an essay emulating his style of writing!" and I thought "Oh lord, no. We are not doing this at all".  I'm sure there are plenty of 10- or 11-year-olds that can deeply appreciate the literary skill of Cervantes, but I don't have that kind of kid. It was such an abrupt, hard shift from the lightheartedness of Island and Town to the weightiness of Caesar and Cervantes. 

We ended up switching to CAP Writing and Rhetoric, which is working better for us. We are also working through Killgallon Sentence composing for Middle School and will go through Paragraphs for Middle School when we're finished. 

[Ting Tang]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

We loved Island and Town. Voyage was where we started to lose interest. Poodle wasn't written when we started. 

My son loved the quirkiness of Island and Town. We also worked through Beast Academy at that time. All those quirky characters were right up his alley. 

We still use the grammar and poetry parts of MCT. I dropped the essay and vocabulary parts because they were so dull!  I don't remember which level it was, but there was a book that presented an essay by Cervantes and the instructions were basically "Observe how marvelous this essay is! Now, go forth and write an essay emulating his style of writing!" and I thought "Oh lord, no. We are not doing this at all".  I'm sure there are plenty of 10- or 11-year-olds that can deeply appreciate the literary skill of Cervantes, but I don't have that kind of kid. It was such an abrupt, hard shift from the lightheartedness of Island and Town to the weightiness of Caesar and Cervantes. 

We ended up switching to CAP Writing and Rhetoric, which is working better for us. We are also working through Killgallon Sentence composing for Middle School and will go through Paragraphs for Middle School when we're finished. 

I have Voyage for next year and have read this, too.  I haven't opened it and figured I could sell it at the last year's pricing if need be.  I am trying to decide if we should use it or not.  I would like to add in some different language arts and literature, but I see how the packaged curriculum works together so well and do not want to overwhelm him. 

[Green Bean]

Halfway through Island now. Little Man kinda listens in and demands to read, too. The two older kids that I am remediating are having light bulb moments. I won't trash talk what we did before (and it is many programs), but obviously if at 14 and 17 they STILL could not find a noun, etc. in a sentence even with being able to rattle off the definitions, we had a problem! I'm doing the sentence and vocabulary books, too, but likely will skip poetry and Mud for them. Please tell me the cost will be worth it.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Green Bean

[ArteHaus]

Hmm. We are finishing Paragraph Town this year. I would say that MCT has been amazing. However, I think the writing portion is not sufficient, even for excellent writers. It is a little vague, so we will supplement next year. I do think it is challenging, which is why we are pushing on.

Who else has tried Voyage, and had a positive response? Voyage is our plan next year. It is a little disheartening to hear that it lacks the whimsy of the previous levels, as my boys fell in love with Mud and Queequack. 

I would like to add that we are not going to be purchasing the Literature portion. I don’t love the Lit options, and I don’t find them thorough. Interesting, but nothing that could considered Literary Analysis. So, we will supplement.

Edited February 8, 2023 by ArteHaus

[Clemsondana]

Voyage is more serious because the focus is on writing essays and reading examples of different types of essays.  For us, this level had the most comprehensive writing of any of the 6 that we did.  My kids both liked the vocab portion even though it's more serious.  

[Mona]

I read great reviews about MCT here on these boards. Many people said they liked the front-loading of all the grammar and how well it worked for their student. My two older children were already in middle school when I looked at MCT, but didn’t really know where to start with it at their ages, so I didn’t go ahead with it. There’s a big age gap between them and my third child, so I was able to start him with Island. This child picks up concepts quickly, but really doesn’t like to write, so MCT worked very well. MCT is so rich with vocabulary. More than 60% of our language comes from Latin, so the Roman connection in the vocabulary worked well in helping him visualize the meanings. The poetry was fun to read and we used the QR codes to hear MCT read them, too. Sentence Island was so enjoyable, but my son’s favorite part of Island was “The Mud Trilogy”. I read these books before bed and even my husband was sad when we finished the last book. 😂 So, we read them again. The continuous use of selected vocabulary helped him retain those words and the clever way he showed concepts in the story was fun; The characters had to keep pausing when trying to cross Comma Island.

We are currently working our way through Town level, and he thought it was funny when Fishmeal noticed the reader and there was a close up of Fishmeal looking at him. English lessons are really a pleasure with MCT. We are doing the four level sentence analysis each lesson, but no other writing yet. I don’t really follow the suggested schedule. 

I have Voyage on hand, but I will save it for later. I plan to concentrate on paragraph writing next year and lead into essays from there. Then I will revisit MCT Voyage when he is ready for more.

I’m glad we chose MCT. I believe my son’s grammar and vocabulary knowledge is beyond most kids his age. Now, it’s time to get pencil to paper.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Mona

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, ArteHaus said:

Hmm. We are finishing Paragraph Town this year. I would say that MCT has been amazing. However, I think the writing portion is not sufficient, even for excellent writers. It is a little vague, so we will supplement next year. I do think it is challenging, which is why we are pushing on.

Who else has tried Voyage, and had a positive response? Voyage is our plan next year. It is a little disheartening to hear that it lacks the whimsy of the previous levels, as my boys fell in love with Mud and Queequack. 

I would like to add that we are not going to be purchasing the Literature portion. I don’t love the Lit options, and I don’t find them thorough. Interesting, but nothing that could considered Literary Analysis. So, we will supplement.

We're in the same boat. I have Voyage for next year, but I do find this curriculum intense and time consuming.  Since I want to do more things next year, I am just not sure it is the right fit to spend just a year on.  The vocabulary in particular takes a lot of time for us, and that is just the reading.  I think the grammar and vocabulary are the best parts.  If he was my only child, it'd be a different story.

[ArteHaus]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

Voyage is more serious because the focus is on writing essays and reading examples of different types of essays.  For us, this level had the most comprehensive writing of any of the 6 that we did.  My kids both liked the vocab portion even though it's more serious.  

Did you find the writing helpful? I mean in PT it doesn’t seem that there was a lot of writing instruction, just vague but good writing prompts. I am curious if Voyage includes any writing instruction or just simply encourages writing with few parameters? I like the way writing is done in MCT, but I am not sure if it is complete enough. What do you think?

[ArteHaus]

46 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

We're in the same boat. I have Voyage for next year, but I do find this curriculum intense and time consuming.  Since I want to do more things next year, I am just not sure it is the right fit to spend just a year on.  The vocabulary in particular takes a lot of time for us, and that is just the reading.  I think the grammar and vocabulary are the best parts.  If he was my only child, it'd be a different story.

Exactly. I can’t see giving it up though, I will probably just supplement where I need to.

[Ting Tang]

23 minutes ago, ArteHaus said:

Exactly. I can’t see giving it up though, I will probably just supplement where I need to.

It's just hard to beat the four-level analysis approach.  And the vocabulary grammar exercises reinforce it.  Nothing else quite compares!  I have been interested in Cottage Press somewhat to use alongside it.  But then I want to return to Latin, and certain grammar programs are meant to be used alongside those language programs. Sigh.

[Clemsondana]

57 minutes ago, ArteHaus said:

Did you find the writing helpful? I mean in PT it doesn’t seem that there was a lot of writing instruction, just vague but good writing prompts. I am curious if Voyage includes any writing instruction or just simply encourages writing with few parameters? I like the way writing is done in MCT, but I am not sure if it is complete enough. What do you think?

It's been several years, but we found it helpful.  We tended to modify it.  In middle school, I have my kids write about history, so we often incorporated some of the techniques that it was trying to teach into that writing assignment.  I feel like I learned a lot about word usage and organizing content to make the desired point.  I don't think that it can be all of the writing that you do, but I think that if you use the ideas to apply to other places that you might be doing writing - about literature, or history, or current events or persuasive essays about science, whatever is interesting to your family - then the instruction is good.  

[8filltheheart]

15 hours ago, ArteHaus said:

Did you find the writing helpful? I mean in PT it doesn’t seem that there was a lot of writing instruction, just vague but good writing prompts. I am curious if Voyage includes any writing instruction or just simply encourages writing with few parameters? I like the way writing is done in MCT, but I am not sure if it is complete enough. What do you think?

It has been yrs, but I used Voyage with my now 24 yod when she was in 6th grade.  My dd was definitely gifted in languages (she ended up graduating from high school with 15 foreign language credits bc she studied 3 different languages to a high level).  Anyway, I loved how MCT intertwined vocab, grammar, and writing bc that is how I have always taught my kids.  I still believe that his Caesar's English is excellent for vocab.  But, Voyage itself was just OK.  Some of his examples are great.  I still remember The Apple is Ridiculous or some such title.  It was a great example for what he wanted to teach.  However, so many of his examples are transcendentalist essays.  Even for my dd (who loved epic poetry so much that she bought an 1800s edition of Marmion in 7th grade with $$ she had saved), the non-voyager examples were uninspiring and more of a slog.  They didn't teach her what we needed at that pt.  But, my biggest gripe was with the 2nd 1/2 of the book.  I have no idea if they have been revised, but back then every single example of a student essay had way too many block quotes, and when used, ended the paragraph with the block quote.  I owned both Advanced Academic Writing books back then and I looked through them and noticed the exact same pattern.  That is not good writing form and is really lazy writing.   Block quotes should be used sparingly (if at all).  Quotes need to be integrated into writing to support the student's argument, not be the student's argument. 

I just looked at the samples online and it still looks the same to me: Advanced Academic Writing I: Student Book by Thompson, Michael Clay | Royal Fireworks Press (rfwp.com)   That paragraph with a single introductory sentence followed by a long block quote and then a new paragraph.....just no.  That is poor academic writing style.   Don't take my word for it: Quotations – The Writing Center • University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (unc.edu)

Quote

How much should I quote?

As few words as possible. Remember, your paper should primarily contain your own words, so quote only the most pithy and memorable parts of sources.......

Use block quotations sparingly.

There may be times when you need to quote long passages. However, you should use block quotations only when you fear that omitting any words will destroy the integrity of the passage.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Green Bean]

For Little Man, I plan to read MCT writing as a nice general introduction but use something else TBD for actual instruction. He’s 6, as y’all know, so I have a long time to think about it.

Starting Sentence Island today with mine.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Green Bean

[ArteHaus]

@8filltheheart Very interesting. So, did you end up supplementing with something else, or perhaps just teach against the frequent using of block quotations? And yes, we love the vocabulary. When I hear one of the children use a vocabulary word in everyday conversation, I am so pleased. So, we will continue that section.

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, ArteHaus said:

@8filltheheart Very interesting. So, did you end up supplementing with something else, or perhaps just teach against the frequent using of block quotations? And yes, we love the vocabulary. When I hear one of the children use a vocabulary word in everyday conversation, I am so pleased. So, we will continue that section.

No.  I sold the books.  All of the examples were consistently incorrect.  We went through some the examples discussing what not to do.  (My kids have rarely written an essay where a block quote would have been acceptable.  None of the writing they have done in middle school has been at a level where using a block quote would be necessary.)

@Ting Tang Have you looked through the latter part of Voyage?  I wonder if the books have been edited.  It would be very easy to identify by simply flipping through the sample MLA essays---a lot of block quotes, paragraphs with a single introductory sentence followed by a block quote followed by a new paragraph instead of developing that paragraph, etc,   

I used the books in 2011.  There were huge discussions about this issue on here back then and most posters were willing to use them as were.  Back then, and even more so now after teaching kids writing for an additional 12 yrs, my personal stance is that I would not have accepted the teaching essays from my own middle school students.  I would have made my student go back and do major revisions. 

[Ting Tang]

@8filltheheartI haven't even opened the packaging. If we do not end up using it, I may sell it for what I paid because it is now more expensive. But I will keep this in mind, should we use it.  🙂 Thanks! 

 

[Xahm]

I just flipped through my copy of Essay Voyage. In the second half, most of the sample "student papers" have block quotes, while the good examples from literary essays do not. I get the impression that he includes so many because it's one area that students tend to make mistakes around. I saw at least a couple of "fix the mistake with this block quote" assignments. I think it'll be a useful tool for us next year, but I'm glad I have lots of additional good essays to give as reading/analyzing assignments, also.

[Green Bean]

FYI- I just posted my Island set for sale on the classifieds.

[Clarita]

13 minutes ago, Green Bean said:

FYI- I just posted my Island set for sale on the classifieds.

May I ask why? Was there a reason it didn't work for you? Or just it's all non-consumables?

[Green Bean]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

May I ask why? Was there a reason it didn't work for you? Or just it's all non-consumables?

My big kids are done with it, and I'm not sure I will use it with Little Man. I don't want to have it sit on my shelf for the next 3-5 yrs waiting to see. I would rather it went to a home to be used.

ADDING: I consider it non-consumable. I made copies of the exercises.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Green Bean

[FreyaO]

My experience with MCT is limited, Island only, so FWIW:

I very much appreciate the feeling that both I and my child have the opportunity to "talk" to someone who truly loves their subject.

I think the word "love" is generally overused and has almost lost its true meaning, so here I'm explicitly talking about someone who has invested their life, has labored for decades, respects and is awed by their subject. I may not enjoy or agree with everything, but I think it's essential that my child experiences that kind of intellectual aptitude. It's becoming rarer and rarer. 

[Nurit]

I recently bought the Poodle level for my DD7, and we have gone through the noun and pronoun chapters.

It is written in verse

which I found confusing at first.

The order of words is unusual, you see,

Like saying 'green branches abound on a tree'.

This is what came up in the style of the book. This is good and bad as it expands the notion of what language can sound like for even a dull subject like grammar, but there are lots of stops to explain tease out meaning.

 

Overall, I guess MCT did a good job because DD immediately got what a noun is, did the practice sentences with ease, and I have asked her to practice on sentences from books we use for read alouds. She did very well. Same for pronouns. She does not ask for it, bit also does not fight it and gets the 'lesson' without repetition so I call that a success! 

[quietgarden]

We love MCT and are currently well into the Town level. We did the Island level when my son was in second grade. I never thought my bouncy child would get excited whenever I announced we were going to analyze a sentence. 

Tips for the Island level:

- I don't think you need the student books at this level. The Teacher's Guides were sufficient as we were reading together and I always put the practice sentences on the whiteboard.

- Putting the practice sentences on the whiteboard was fun and I think he felt a bit "teacher-y" when he would either point to the word or write the part of speech, etc. underneath the word.

- Don't let kids guess at the parts of speech. I always said, "what is it doing in the sentence?" and this has given him a really deep understanding. He can pick out tricky prepositions and adverbs after a year or so of doing them.

- I didn't try to do all of the practice sentences from September to May - I left a chunk for over the summer too to keep us fresh (we follow our local district calendar so he is free when his friends are).

Literature: I wanted to like the Mud trilogy and it was fine, but if I did it over again I would skip it. We did read alouds from a lot of classic books so I think he was getting exposure to great vocabulary anyway. I have a completely different opinion in the Town level.

Writing: As a multi-published author, I have struggled the most with teaching writing. How did I learn to write? I have no idea and sometimes when you've done something professionally for years, you struggle to break it down. Plus I have had some excellent editors (my punctuation is quite imperfect). I stressed a lot over the amount of writing in the Island level - not enough, weird, and disjointed were my first impressions - but now that we are in Town Level I'm starting to see the forest for the trees - more about that below.

If you are starting with an older student you could easily start with the Town level. It has everything the Island level has with additional topics like phrases, subordinating and coordinating conjunctions, but not so much info that a fifth or sixth grade student couldn't handle. My son is in third grade in this level and I feel like it might be a lot to start with Town in 3rd. Not impossible, but I think it would take the fun out of MCT and that would be sad.

Tips for Town level:

- I would get the student books at this level. I like to have him follow along in his own book while I read out loud. Plus there are more in-book sentence analysis exercises. For Caesar's English we co-read most chapters. I make a photocopy of the word searches because the book is so beautiful it seems ashamed to mark it up (we got the color version).

- I will stretch out the practice sentences at this level too.

- I would buy the full package (expensive, I know) that comes with the guide, because I found the guide really useful in pacing at this level and it gives additional writing suggestions. Maybe someone else would not find it worth it, but since I wanted the student books and I am now an uber-fan of MCT, I went all in.

- This year I did add in Daily Grams from Easy Grammar for punctuation and capitalization practice, etc. Basically some of the stuff that First Language Lessons would cover. My son liked FLL in first grade but at the second level he lost interest. And FLL does have some nice touches (formatting a letter, abbreviations, punctuation) that MCT doesn't cover. I made a note of those topics in the second level but for most of it Daily Grams takes care of it without me needing to plan it in.

Literature: I am loving the literature trio at this level. The books incorporate vocabulary, sentence analysis, quote quizzes, Socratic questions, and callouts of writing tools and techniques. Like a Brave Writer Dart or Arrow but more rigorous - once we were well into the Island level of MCT the grammar in the Darts seemed too easy and I could no longer get out my money's worth.

Writing: Since I panicked in the Island level, we started doing CAP W&R over the summer and into the fall. I will continue with it as my son likes it and it doesn't take too much time. BUT, now that we have moved further along in MCT, I'm starting to see the logic in MCT writing. My son loves MCT's writing assignments and really gets into them (unlike CAP which he treats more as a "get it done" exercise). And they are more beautiful and more creative than other writing he does. MCT's grammar means it is easy for me to point out errors and even make my own checklist a la IEW which does NOT include the requirement of an -ly adverb. The adverb is not your friend, as Stephen King says (who has an excellent book on writing btw).

My son and I love the quotes from great books and speeches and I've bought the speeches books since my son loves history. We sit down as a family and learn from them. I think it's helpful when the teacher can be excited by a curriculum as well - that excitement rubs off on the child.

I wish I had this when my now college age daughter was young - she would have loved it as well. My kids are quite different but they both really hate anything that's too easy, cheesy, or banal.

MCT is a joy and a work of genius in my opinion. It might seem unstructured but in fact it is a highly structured curriculum with tons of review and weaving of one facet of ELA to the next and back again. 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by quietgarden