Handwriting/d'nealian: W, Y

[Onehikingfam]

Hello!

I’m using Logic of English with my first grader, and the handwriting portion is based on d'nealian. I noticed that the W and Y in manuscript are formed differently in upper and lowercase. In uppercase they are pointed, and in lowercase they are curved. I don’t understand why there would be an inconsistency like this  

Does anyone know why that might be? It seems like there should be a reason, but maybe there isn’t? I have been searching for an answer and have not found one, so came here to see if someone more experienced might know more about this. 
 

 

 

[Green Bean]

Curves are easier/faster than points. I have no facts to back that up; just my experience with my kids.

[Onehikingfam]

Yes, that makes sense. But then why form uppercase W with points and lowercase w with curves?

[HomeAgain]

It's not an inconsistency, any more than Mm or Yy is an inconsistency. It's just the letter formation.  When you look at all the D'Nealian uppercase letters you'll see that most of them have points unless naturally curved.  The lowercase letters almost all take their cursive form so that the next handwriting step is learned easier.

When a kid starts cursive, around the second or third year of D'Nealian, they will learn all their uppercase letters and a handful of new lowercase ones: f, r, s (though this one's debatable, we upstroke and make the top of the 's' smaller but same form), z.

[Ellie]

12 hours ago, Onehikingfam said:

Hello!

I’m using Logic of English with my first grader, and the handwriting portion is based on d'nealian. I noticed that the W and Y in manuscript are formed differently in upper and lowercase. In uppercase they are pointed, and in lowercase they are curved. I don’t understand why there would be an inconsistency like this  

Does anyone know why that might be? It seems like there should be a reason, but maybe there isn’t? I have been searching for an answer and have not found one, so came here to see if someone more experienced might know more about this.

Hmmmm...I wouldn't think that LOE's penmanship is "based on D'Nealian," even if there are similarities.

[Servant4Christ]

LOE fonts look nearly identical to the modified D'Nealian we use. The 2 obvious letters I see that are different are the manuscript lowercase 'a' and the cursive upper case 'Q'

Edited May 19, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[Onehikingfam]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:08 AM, HomeAgain said:

It's not an inconsistency, any more than Mm or Yy is an inconsistency. It's just the letter formation.  When you look at all the D'Nealian uppercase letters you'll see that most of them have points unless naturally curved.  The lowercase letters almost all take their cursive form so that the next handwriting step is learned easier.

When a kid starts cursive, around the second or third year of D'Nealian, they will learn all their uppercase letters and a handful of new lowercase ones: f, r, s (though this one's debatable, we upstroke and make the top of the 's' smaller but same form), z.

Thanks for pointing that out regarding the shape of Mm etc. I think I just need to let it go. My new issue is that my DS cannot get the correct slant to his printing…even with the correct paper angle. Hmmm. 

[Servant4Christ]

7 hours ago, Onehikingfam said:

Thanks for pointing that out regarding the shape of Mm etc. I think I just need to let it go. My new issue is that my DS cannot get the correct slant to his printing…even with the correct paper angle. Hmmm. 

Mine doesn't get the slant correct, either. It has to do with multiple variables, not just paper angle. Trying to get DS to change his hand position and write upwards and away from him (right-handed) where it would naturally go if he let it is so hard. I've had to reconcile to the fact he may never slant his handwriting, but at least it's neat and legible cursive.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[goldenecho]

On 5/11/2022 at 8:22 PM, Onehikingfam said:

 I noticed that the W and Y in manuscript are formed differently in upper and lowercase. In uppercase they are pointed, and in lowercase they are curved. I don’t understand why there would be an inconsistency like this 

It may be to make it easier to transition to cursive, which also has curved lowercase and pointed upper case.

And now for way more history than you probably wanted on this subject.

As to why those are different at all...I'm not certain, but I have theories.   I do calligraphy, and have a wonderful book with historical calligraphy hands (fonts) in chronological order.    I know that a double u was originally formed from two v s  or two u's (which originally made the same sound) because latin didn't have the sound of a w.  The earliest lettering with this has them pointed (However, they include modernized letters in the old script of my book, so I'm not sure when if this was an anachronism).   And the oldest scripts didn't have capitals.

Anyways, pretty soon you see scripts that have a w formed with curves, but others still with vs.   This might be because in some places they used vv to make the new letter, and in others  uu

Now, I haven't ever tried feather quill pens, but I think they functioned similarly to modern calligraphy pens in that upstrokes are hard to do (harder to get a good line, can mess up the paper or the pen).   So it's all done with down-strokes.  But you can do a slight upstroke on a curve or a diagonal...and and you can connect letters by curving them in a way that removes at least one strokes.

For example, here is one of the earliest hands that was closest to our letters today, and you can see how a w is formed:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/8c/d4/a98cd47d3802afbb33c39d1ff6a18720.jpg

And here is a one early script that used a rounded w....
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/10/d9/e210d92184350a34fcdd2cfd18232ed1.jpg
 

But larger initials were used less often and often were used a fancy intros to chapters and sections, so while rounded and pointed w's were in many scripts, speed was not as much of a factor here.

And then we get copperplate pens which could do upstrokes and you see the first connected cursives (it was all unconnected printed letters, for the most part, up until then). 

While most of the copperplate fonts I've seen have pointed capitals (probably for looks), and curved lowercase (probably for speed), in my book the first copperplate script listed  chronologically actually had small loops at the base of the capital w.   The link below shows both styles....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/22/be/3122bea0d3e9643cc08bc92425eb651d.jpg

And this one shows the lowercase too...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/49/f8/3b49f88879e2f964224900bf367cdbf1.jpg

Anyways, not sure how that translated into modern handwriting nor specifically how it got that way in DeNealian... but my theory is that appearance was more important in capitals and speed was more important in lowercase.   Also, a curved capital curved w would take up quite a lot more space.