Would Lial’s and Dolciani Pre-Algebra be challenging or too easy after BA 5?

[Kezia]

We are a little over 1/2 way through BA 5. It really seems like a love/hate relationship with him and BA. So AOPS pre-algebra was not really on my short list. 

Today he tells me he really likes math, especially math that makes him think. He loves Challenge Math. 
 

I bought both Lial’s and Dolciani for an easy year of pre-Algebra or just supplemental topic coverage. I wanted them both so he could choose which he liked best.
 

Would they be too easy after BA? 
 

 

 

P.S. I have zero plans for Algebra or for the remaining math sequence. I love homeschooling and would happily continue through high school, but I don’t know if we will or not. 

 

 

[kirstenhill]

My gut feeling is that Lial is easier than Dolciani (at least in the editions I have -- I have an older Dolciani and a newer Lial).  They are both definitely easier than AoPs pre-algebra.  Dolciani (again, in the edition I have) has three "levels" of problems in each lesson,  and the C level problems are supposed to be somewhat more challenging.

I think it's hard to say if Lial/Dolciani will be TOO easy...some of it may depend on what he loves/hates about BA.

If the thing he hates is the visual/"puzzle-y" problems in BA, then you might be good to go with AOPS because there are none of those specific types of puzzles.  My youngest has grown to hate the sorts of puzzles where the hard part is not the math, the hard part is deciding how to connect matching items together without the lines crossing, etc.  However, if he doesn't like some of the "discovery" nature of BA or the focus on novel methods, then AOPS might not be a good fit because it is highly discovery oriented. 

I am in a similar boat, though a somewhat different set of circumstances.  My youngest (just turned 10) started BA5D last week.  He actually likes the discovery method, and likes the most difficult word problems, generally speaking.  However, even the more "wordy" explanations in the BA guide cause him to zone out sometimes, and AOPS pre-Alg is super wordy...  And to top it off my DS10 is dyslexic, and can't read it for himself.  His reading is improving a lot, but if he gets one or two words wrong in a word problem, it changes the whole meaning and he can't understand the problem, so I have to read it to him.  I def. think Lial and Dolciani are "too easy" for my DS, but AOPS text is far to wordy, so I haven't come up with an adequate solution yet.  We also have the problem that I have a hard time being patient with him as he "wrestles" with harder problems.  My older two boys were both totally on their own starting in BA5 (unless they got stuck on a problem), so I didn't sit through the wrestling with the hard problems.  When I see DS10 going down a totally wrong path, I feel like MY time is getting wasted, so I am sorely tempted, and sometimes give in to the temptation, to tell him right off that he is going about it wrong.  But, this short circuits the process that I am sure the other two boys went through of finding out for themselves that a particular path is not the right way.  I also give too many "hints" in the process of reading the problems...I don't mean to, but I often tend to add extra explanations while I read, then DS10 gets mad that I "gave too much away".   So I think I would be terrible at helping him with AOPS...LOL. 

Many of the harder problems in AOPS are math contest problems (AMC8/10, Mathcounts, etc).  One thing you could do is pick an easier text and then supplement with math contest problems.  That is one path I am considering -- doing the lesson and the basic problems in Dolciani (I prefer that one of the two), and then adding in other harder problems.  We lose some of the discovery approach but I think there will be plenty to discover by doing math contest problems too.  But don't hold me to that...I have been changing my mind regularly as the time ticks down until we finish BA.  😉

[Farrar]

IMHO, the Dolciani word problems specifically are as challenging as the ones in AoPS. Dolciani doesn't have any of the really challenging puzzly and contest math aspects of AoPS. It also has none of the discovery style aspects of Beast/AoPS. It's very explicit in the teaching. It's easier by most measures, sure, but it's not a light program and there are some old school teachers who think it's the best foundation for later. By contrast, I would personally describe Lial's as just thorough and serviceable. I didn't use it outright, but I don't remember it having any "hard" aspects.

 

[Kezia]

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

I think it's hard to say if Lial/Dolciani will be TOO easy...some of it may depend on what he loves/hates about BA.

He does NOT like the puzzles, at all. I think he does like discovery, at least to some extent. He wants to know the why not just the how, but sometimes he does “check out” sometimes during a proof type explanation. It looked like AOPS really liked the proofs. He just started Alcumus and likes it. 

[Kezia]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

It also has none of the discovery style aspects of Beast/AoPS. It's very explicit in the teaching.

I actually used the Dolciani book to have a first look at negative exponents. He was trying to go there all on his own and I don’t remember that topic at all. The explanation was clear enough to me, but I felt that with a mathematically minded teacher (which I am not) this would have made more sense to HIM. 

[EKS]

I have not used either of the other programs, but the Lial series, in general, is thorough.  It's important to understand that its intended audience is remedial college students, so it is focused on getting this group to be able to do mathematical procedures by hand reliably.  Challenging problems tend to be challenging from a procedural point of view rather than a conceptual one.  It's not that it doesn't cover concepts, because it does, but it is with an eye toward a more procedural approach.  

[EKS]

Also, I'm not sure how old the student is, but Lial is formatted for adults.  When I used it for a while with my then 9yo, he never even saw the book.  I taught out of it and then fed him problems on the whiteboard for practice.

[Kezia]

38 minutes ago, EKS said:

 

Also, I'm not sure how old the student is

 

He will be nearly 11.5 years old by then. I have the Lial’s pre-algebra and not the BCM version, if that makes any difference. 
 

 

 

[EKS]

17 minutes ago, Kezia said:

He will be nearly 11.5 years old by then. I have the Lial’s pre-algebra and not the BCM version, if that makes any difference. 

They all have the same format.  If you have a copy of the book, you can see what I'm talking about.

[Lucy the Valiant]

When my kids finish Singapore, they go right into Dolciani Pre-A, and it's super un-even for them - some chapters are too easy and they fly through (this does build confidence, though), and some are much more difficult, so we go more slowly (the "hard" chapters are usually concepts not covered in SM). This year has historically been super useful for my kids (strong math students, but likely not heading into a math-focused career) because we use Dolciani for the next 3 years (Alg 1 & II & Trig, Geometry) so they get used to the format, AND it gives an excellent review of the elementary math concepts using different problem phrasing / wording. 

Not sure if that's helpful, but wanted to throw it out there anyway. We thought the C-level Dolciani were equivalent in challenge to the "Challenging Word Problems" in SM.

[Not_a_Number]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:13 AM, Kezia said:

He does NOT like the puzzles, at all. I think he does like discovery, at least to some extent. He wants to know the why not just the how, but sometimes he does “check out” sometimes during a proof type explanation. It looked like AOPS really liked the proofs. He just started Alcumus and likes it. 

I think he might like AoPS then. 

DD9 is like this — not a fan of puzzles, likes discovery. She didn’t get along with BA.

[Kezia]

I may put AOPS on my list and keep Lial’s and Dolciani as a way to back off the frustration for a bit. 

[Aliqout]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:13 AM, Kezia said:

He does NOT like the puzzles, at all. I think he does like discovery, at least to some extent. He wants to know the why not just the how, but sometimes he does “check out” sometimes during a proof type explanation. It looked like AOPS really liked the proofs. He just started Alcumus and likes it. 

It sounds like you should give AOPS a shot then. Although math is always puzzleish, there are no, or extremely few, problems presented as puzzles after BA 5.