NSF Graduate Fellowship application - help us brainstorm

[lewelma]

My son will be applying for the NSF grad fellowship in October.  The application has a lot of detail, and there is one area we think he is weak on. He will be judged on his and his research's intellectual merit and broader impacts - and they must be addressed individually under separate headings in both the Personal statement and the Research Plan statement

Intellectual Merit : potential to advance knowledge

Broader Impacts: potential to benefit society and contribute to the achievement of specific, desired societal outcomes.

My son and his project have intellectual merit, and I'm sure that his professors can help him figure out how his project has broader impacts. But I think his application is weak on what he will say in his personal statement about broader impacts (which he has to put under a separate heading). This is what is says about broader impacts:

"Broader impacts may be accomplished through the research itself, through the activities that are directly related to specific research projects, or through activities that are supported by, but are complementary to, the project. NSF values the advancement of scientific knowledge and activities that contribute to achievement of societally relevant outcomes. Such outcomes include, but are not limited to : full participation of women, persons with disabilities, and underrepresented minorities in STEM; improved STEM education and educator development at any level; increased public scientific literacy and public engagement with science and technology; improved well being of individual sin society; development of a diverse, globally competitive STEM workforce; increased partnership between academia, industry, and others; improved national security; increased economic competitiveness of the US; and enhanced infrastructure for research and education"

So, we're a bit confused.  He has to write both a personal statement and a research plan. Clearly, his professors will help him figure out how particle physics at CERN meets one or more of the items in the list for the research plan. But what about the personal statement?  I was interpreting this as saying that he needs to have worked personally on one of these goals, so he was going for education because he has volunteered to tutor kids, is interested in helping out at AoPS as a mentor/halper, and will be helping with the HMMT math contest this year. But I am re-reading this statement and it seems like the project itself needs to do these things, and if so, I can't see how in his personal statement he is going to write about how he has used his time in particle physics to do outreach.

How do you guys read this? Clearly, he is going to talk to his professors, but he would like to have thought about the application and have clear questions before talking to them and the grad office. 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

My DH had one of these for grad school. I wasn't eligible since I'm Canadian. 

What subject is this for? 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

Yeah,my sister had one too. But the process that get it has changed a lot I think. 

He will be applying in physics but then he has to pick a subfield. This is shockingly confusing. This year they have decided to focus on three areas for giving out money: computationally intensive research, artificial intelligence, and quantum information computing. So each field has the standard subfields like particle physics or condensed matter physics (my son's top two picks) but then you could instead pick computationally intensive, AI, or quantum information computing. Which you pick determines your reader, so it is really important. Well, all of particle physics is both computationally intense and full of AI. So I have no idea which box he should tick. And it is new this year, so I'm guessing no one will be clear on it. On the good side at least is that is current research is on the list for who they want to fund. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

What happens if he decides to change his subfield during grad school?  (asked bc ds switched his.) 

THe good news is that your ds can approach this as a really low stress application since all programs are fully funded anyway.  (I'm pretty sure ds didn't pursue any outside funding sources.) Ds was offered several fellowships that didn't require any TAing at all but ended up at a school with 1/2 TA appointment.  That was for his first 2 yrs and while taking grad classes himself and as a 3rd yr it is simply full research.  

[regentrude]

He needs to develop the application together with the professor who will advise on the project and who has seen these applications before and knows what makes a competetive statement. So, what project/subfield he will choose depends on what specific projects the professor has who will be advising him for his PhD. He needs to first sort this out before applying.

(I just talked to DH about your question, since he had an undergrad student who worked with him accepted for an NSF Grad Fellowship (which is crazy competetive) a couple years ago. He says this is something your DS needs to work on together with the prof who will be his graduate advisor; the question is beyond the advice homeschool moms on some board can give.)

Edited March 12, 2021 by regentrude

[lewelma]

The reason, 8fill, that he is looking at this program is that he has been encouraged to apply for programs like Rhodes, Mitchel, Fulbright, Schwarzman etc, but he was not sure he wanted to go overseas (as he is already overseas!). So the other option on the list he was sent was the NSF fellowship for the USA so we started researching it. There are different offices that help students depending on what they are applying for, so we are trying to figure out 1) if he is interested in these fellowships, and 2) if so, which one. I appreciate hearing that grad programs are funded. In my day this was true but you had to work 20 hours per week teaching, so I was very jealous of the kid with an NSF fellowship.

Regentrude, it sounds like although undergrads can apply for the NSF fellowship, that it would be better done as a first year grad student.  This was not the case back in my day when I applied, but clearly times change. As for crazy competitive, they said that 16% of applications were funded, which we thought was pretty high. 

Can either of you recommend a book or website that can help walk him through the grad school application process? 

[Not_a_Number]

Let me actually ask my DH, @lewelma. Unlike me, he's an active academic and has been involved with the selection process for math. I dunno if he'll know things about physics, but it can't hurt. 

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Regentrude, it sounds like although undergrads can apply for the NSF fellowship, that it would be better done as a first year grad student.  This was not the case back in my day when I applied, but clearly times change. As for crazy competitive, they said that 16% of applications were funded, which we thought was pretty high. 

Our student applied while finishing his undergrad, working with the prof with whom he was going to do his PhD. 
16% is more than  had expected. Nice.

Quote

Can either of you recommend a book or website that can help walk him through the grad school application process? 

I don't know of any such thing. What does he want to know? For folks at his institution, grad school must be the default, so don't the profs give advice about how to apply for grad school? 

[Not_a_Number]

Taking things down from DH, who's been on an NSF fellowship math selection panel and says that his impression was that all the physical sciences run things fairly similarly: 

He says the most important thing is his recommendation letters. The personal statement, he says, is the least important thing. 

For intellectual merit, they are explicitly asked to evaluate "whether the proposed research is potentially transformative." You want to make it sound awesome and ambitious and like it's going to change the field. So, basically, you want to talk your stuff up. It doesn't mean lie, it means that the people who read this are not going to be specialists in your area -- if you're lucky, one of the people will be a specialist in your stuff. It has to be clear from your statements why what you're doing is a big deal, even if it's not someone intimately acquainted with the area. 

For broader impact, the thing that they want to know about typically is pedagogical innovation aimed at bringing traditionally underrepresented groups into the field. Often, the kind of thing you want to write about is how part of your research will involve some public lectures, or work by underprivileged high school kids, or undergraduates, etc. It doesn't have to be directly about particle physics, it just has to spin off from it. 

DH also says that if you don't do a good, serious job on the broader impact, this can be used to disqualify an application, since they get SO MANY applications, so it's important to take it seriously and not do a minimal job. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

32 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What does he want to know? For folks at his institution, grad school must be the default, so don't the profs give advice about how to apply for grad school? 

It is one of those things that he doesn't know what he doesn't know, so doesn't know what to ask!  LOL.  He is planning to talk to his academic adviser and his research adviser next week, he just didn't want to appear like an idiot, so thought some prep would be a good idea. 

His biggest problem is that because of Covid, instead of having multiple different research experiences in different summers and during January term as he had planned, he instead has had only one that has lasted 2.5 years. It has been awesome, and has taught him so much, but he is not sure this is the field he really wants to go into (particle physics). But now that he knows so much about this field, and is actually going to get a publication that is important to the field, it is just easier to keep going with what he knows rather than take a risk and going into condensed matter physics, which he has never worked in but has interested him.  Kind of a muddle, because he has to make a decision about his future without enough information. Covid screwed the information collecting period. 

[lewelma]

38 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Taking things down from DH, who's been on an NSF fellowship math selection panel and says that his impression was that all the physical sciences run things fairly similarly: 

He says the most important thing is his recommendation letters. The personal statement, he says, is the least important thing. 

For intellectual merit, they are explicitly asked to evaluate "whether the proposed research is potentially transformative." You want to make it sound awesome and ambitious and like it's going to change the field. So, basically, you want to talk your stuff up. It doesn't mean lie, it means that the people who read this are not going to be specialists in your area -- if you're lucky, one of the people will be a specialist in your stuff. It has to be clear from your statements why what you're doing is a big deal, even if it's not someone intimately acquainted with the area. 

For broader impact, the thing that they want to know about typically is pedagogical innovation aimed at bringing traditionally underrepresented groups into the field. Often, the kind of thing you want to write about is how part of your research will involve some public lectures, or work by underprivileged high school kids, or undergraduates, etc. It doesn't have to be directly about particle physics, it just has to spin off from it. 

DH also says that if you don't do a good, serious job on the broader impact, this can be used to disqualify an application, since they get SO MANY applications, so it's important to take it seriously and not do a minimal job. 

This is very helpful! Thank you! If he continues with the particle physics he is doing, it is transformative. They are about to publish something that will break the Standard Model. DS is very excited. He just doesn't know if he wants to continue with PP. If he does, it would be easy to find an adviser to continue this research with because it is already so far forward. He could definitely apply for the NSF as an undergrad, and I would argue has a very very good shot of getting it. If he switches to Condensed Matter Physics, then he really knows nothing, and would have to wait until after he starts grad school and learns something about the field.  Very confusing for him to know what to do.

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, lewelma said:

he is not sure this is the field he really wants to go into (particle physics). But now that he knows so much about this field, and is actually going to get a publication that is important to the field, it is just easier to keep going with what he knows rather than take a risk and going into condensed matter physics, which he has never worked in but has interested him.  Kind of a muddle, because he has to make a decision about his future without enough information. Covid screwed the information collecting period. 

That is why I asked if he knew what he wanted to do and what would happen if he wanted to change fields.  Ds dramatically changed fields and it didn't matter at Berkeley at all bc they don't select their research until end of 2nd yr IIRC.  (I might be wrong about the timeline, but it certainly wasn't 1st yr.  His research that he was doing 1st yr and 2nd yr are what made him rethink his plan (plus getting married and switching to a more practical field.)) I'm not sure his wife (also a 3rd yr) has committed to a research project yet or not.  (I get confused as to what she wants to pursue.  I think it is HE or particle.)

He needs to make sure he spends a significant amt of time researching various programs and whether or not he needs to decide definitively as an applicant/1st yr.  (no idea if that is at all a norm.)  It sounds like a program with some flexibility would be a better match.  I feel sorry for kids like your ds.  Ds was able to spend 3 REUs doing vastly different types of research, plus another completely different field at his home campus.  And he STILL changed his direction.    

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This is very helpful! Thank you! If he continues with the particle physics he is doing, it is transformative. They are about to publish something that will break the Standard Model. DS is very excited. He just doesn't know if he wants to continue with PP. If he does, it would be easy to find an adviser to continue this research with because it is already so far forward. He could definitely apply for the NSF as an undergrad, and I would argue has a very very good shot of getting it. If he switches to Condensed Matter Physics, then he really knows nothing, and would have to wait until after he starts grad school and learns something about the field.  Very confusing for him to know what to do.

I'll ask DH about this situation when he comes back. He's away at his sister's for the evening 🙂 . (And we're currently local to your DS, of course, lol.) 

[Dmmetler]

DH is a former NSF fellow in mathematics. He says the only difference between his failed application (senior year) and successful one (first year of grad school) was that his second year he had a very specific project that connected with his advisor's, who had multiple past NSF funded grants in related areas. 

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

 I feel sorry for kids like your ds.  Ds was able to spend 3 REUs doing vastly different types of research, plus another completely different field at his home campus.  And he STILL changed his direction.    

Yup. It is very frustrating.  Even for this summer, where he could do a different research project, it will have to be remote.  So does he 1) work remotely on a project where he knows the people because he started with them face to face and he is now making very good progress. Or 2) still work remotely but on a new project with people he does not know and can't work with intimately so is likely to not gain a good understanding of the field anyway because he will basically be doing it in his bedroom.  It is just a muddle.  

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

whether or not he needs to decide definitively as an applicant/1st yr.  (no idea if that is at all a norm.)  It sounds like a program with some flexibility would be a better match.

This is a very good point. I will tell him this.  My naive understanding is that in physics the equipment is expensive, so my impression is that different universities focused on different things because they can't buy equipment for everything.  This is very different from my field of Ecology, Evolution, and Conservation Biology where the professors need little equipment, but rather need money to travel to the study site.  For me, I could change my subfield without having to change universities. I went from behavioural ecology to population dynamics, which is enormous. But neither needed expensive equipment so was not a problem.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This is a very good point. I will tell him this.  My naive understanding is that in physics the equipment is expensive, so my impression is that different universities focused on different things because they can't buy equipment for everything.  This is very different from my field of Ecology, Evolution, and Conservation Biology where the professors need little equipment, but rather need money to travel to the study site.  For me, I could change my subfield without having to change universities. I went from behavioural ecology to population dynamics, which is enormous. But neither needed expensive equipment so was not a problem.

Remind me, is an NSF fellowship attached to a school? (This is how you can tell I don't have DH nearby, lol.) I thought it wasn't. 

[8filltheheart]

14 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This is a very good point. I will tell him this.  My naive understanding is that in physics the equipment is expensive, so my impression is that different universities focused on different things because they can't buy equipment for everything.  This is very different from my field of Ecology, Evolution, and Conservation Biology where the professors need little equipment, but rather need money to travel to the study site.  For me, I could change my subfield without having to change universities. I went from behavioural ecology to population dynamics, which is enormous. But neither needed expensive equipment so was not a problem.

Yes and no.  Some Us like Berkeley have multiple areas that are top programs.  Not that I think this ranking is one I would turn to for understanding grad programs, but you can see that Berkeley's physics dept is large and covers multiple areas.  (But this is all completely uninformed knowledge.  I had zero involvement with ds's grad school process.  He told me where he applied after the fact; he told me the programs he was debating between; and then he told me his final decision.  So, my understanding is completely superficial.)

Quote

Program and Specialty rankings

#3inPhysics (tie)

#4inAtomic / Molecular / Optical

#2inCondensed Matter

#7inCosmology / Relativity / Gravity

#6inElementary Particles / Field / String Theory

#5inNuclear (tie)

#4inQuantum

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[8filltheheart]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Remind me, is an NSF fellowship attached to a school? (This is how you can tell I don't have DH nearby, lol.) I thought it wasn't. 

I don't think it is tied to a school.  THe question is it tied to specific research.  Can he change focus and keep the fellowship?

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't think it is tied to a school.  THe question is it tied to specific research.  Can he change focus and keep the fellowship?

I'll ask DH. I know that I didn't do anything like what I wrote when I applied for my NSERC fellowship (the Canadian version), and no one cared. But I have no idea what happens in the US.

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Remind me, is an NSF fellowship attached to a school? (This is how you can tell I don't have DH nearby, lol.) I thought it wasn't. 

Good question.  When I applied, it wasn't. But if you are linking it to your research with a specific professor, sounds like it would be.  Another good thing to find out. 

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't think it is tied to a school.  THe question is it tied to specific research.  Can he change focus and keep the fellowship?

I'll get him to ask this when he talks to his advisers. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I'll get him to ask this when he talks to his advisers. 

DH says that no one cares if you change research direction, at least in math. He doesn't think it's attached to a school. 

Of course, your DS should check this with his own professors, who probably know more about the physics process. He should find someone who's served on a physics panel... 

[lewelma]

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

DH says that no one cares if you change research direction, at least in math. He doesn't think it's attached to a school. 

Of course, your DS should check this with his own professors, who probably know more about the physics process. He should find someone who's served on a physics panel..

They have an office to help with this type of application, and now I am clear why it is a different office than for the Rhodes, Fulbright etc. Those go through the Distinguished Fellowship office, whereas the NSF Grad Fellowship goes through the Graduate office.  Now this all makes sense, because the NSF fellowship is a completely different kettle of fish. 

Thanks everyone for making some stuff clear. DS will be chatting with both offices next week.