Grad Student Seeks Opinions on Tenure

[MKS]

Hello, I am a graduate student in public adminstration with an emphasis on education. For my thesis, I am beginning to gather information on so-called alternatives to traditional public education. (Charter schools, private/parochial, homeschooling/private tutoring, etc.)

 

Because I am surrounded by education students and professors, I am intentionally seeking other views. While this is still a very informal process, I would benefit greatly from the opinions of homeschooling parents.

 

If this goes well, I may return with other questions, but today I am interested in hearing this board's members thoughts on the tenure system.

 

Do you think it's good or bad? Why?

 

Do you believe it impacts the quality of K-12 public schooling? If yes, positively or negatively?

 

Do you have any thoughts on merit pay for teachers, either as an addition or a replacement for the tenure system?

 

Did tenure in any way play a part in your decision to homeschool your children?

 

Any and all responses are most appreciated. Feel free to not answer these questions if you have something else to say.

 

Thank you very much, MKS.

[Susan in KY]

IMHO, tenure does have a negative effect on the quality of education. While I have known some highly motivated teachers who manage to sustain their love for the children and their love for teaching itself over a long period of time, I know more teachers who'd lost both a long time ago and were merely marking time to retirement. In one instance, all the children were clearly terrified of the teacher. :001_huh:

 

I think rewards for work done well (merit pay) always improves the quality of the finished product. However, a major confounding factor nowadays is that teachers have so little freedom in their classes and so many external controls that the creative process is pushed out by the volume of totally ridiculous stuff that must be accomplished just to comply with the administration. This is one of the biggest reasons to home school, in my opinion. I can take the time to make whatever educational detours I wish—and I do. For example, a week's long journey into marine biology with elementary students can take place in conjunction with a vacation, though it is not part of our main curriculum. This type of departure from the schedule (aka State educational standards!) has resulted in tremendous leaps of learning for my kids in areas they would not have explored otherwise.

 

It is human nature to sink to the lowest level of expectation. Set the bar high, and people will rise to it. Eliminate it, and you get mediocre results.

 

Hope that helps you a little.

Susan

[MKS]

Thank you, Susan, that was very helpful!

[KellyGirl]

I think that tenure is, in general, a bad thing. I think that teachers get comfortable and a lot of times they go into "auto pilot" after a while. For example, I have heard teachers complain that they don't want to teach a new grade or a new course bcz it will be too much work. They just want to keep on doing what they have always done. So, I guess I would have to say that it has negative effects on the school system.

 

I think merit pay is a great idea to replace tenure. However the pitfalls of that go hand in hand with teaching to a test. How will you measure the good teachers? IMO, the kids with the best scores are not always the kids with the best teachers. There is so much more to being a teacher than test scores.

 

I see tenure as one of many reasons that our education system is broken. But none of those reasons had much to do with our decision to homeschool. I feel like I am able to give my kids the individual attention and tailored education they need to be their best. It is my responsibility to help them become sucsessful (in every sense of the word) adults - by building their character, teaching them the "3rs" and teaching how to learn and love learning.

[Catherine]

I understand the need to assure a stable population of teachers, but I wonder if there is any other way to meet teacher's needs. I think tenure did play a role in my decision to homeschool, or it was a factor. My oldest child had a teacher for third grade (tenured) who I disliked, as did he. I endured it, but when my second child got the same teacher, and I asked him on the second day of school if he liked her. He smiled and said yes enthusiastically. When I asked him if she liked him, his face fell. By the second day of school, my sweet 8 yo had already perceived her strong dislike for him and his fellow students. I started homeschooling soon after that.

 

I think tenure definitely negatively impacts the quality of K-12 education. However, IMO not nearly as much as the fact that teachers have little control over what is taught, and how. Tenure prevents principals and parents from removing ineffective teachers.

 

I think a merit pay system would be fraught with opportunities for abuse, difficult to implement and unlikely to accomplish what is intended. IMO teachers have a nearly impossible job.

 

I would recommend a book called "Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics" by Liping Ma as one that provides some very interesting insights into what I consider to be severe flaws in the USA's schools. In it I learned how elementary mathematics is taught in China, a place that consistently produces student of mathematics that roundly beat ours in almost every available measure. Chinese elementary math teachers are compensated like university professors. They have high school educations only!! They also have as much time to plan as they do to teach. The big issue is-they start out far better educated in mathematics than our teachers do. They understand the topic better. That is the crux of the problem, IMO. Teachers here are forced to teach subjects in which they are lacking in knowledge, using curricula that are ineffective. How can they possibly succeed?

[Sandra in NC]

I don't know what they were thinking when they adopted the policy tenure. How was that supposed to improve anything?

 

Tenure is a handicap for schools.

 

What other workplace grants tenure?

 

Part of the reason we're homeschooling today has to do with a teacher who had 30 years of service. She was my son's kindegarten teacher.

 

"Do you know what your son said to me? ...... I don't care to do puzzles."

 

"Well, that's right. He doesn't like to do puzzles."

 

"But he has to do them! He can't just stay in the writing center. He has to visit all the centers. I had another one like him -- from a Montessori school -- but I broke her of that."

 

(This same teacher told my son (the one now in art school!) to color the Indians red on a Thanksgiving coloring sheet. My 5 yo son asked, "Why did she say that? People aren't red." She also put a big red X when he colored pears red. I don't think she paid attention in the grocery store.)

 

Broken children and misinformation with impunity. No, teachers shouldn't have tenure and some definitely shouldn't be teaching at all!

Edited December 6, 2008 by Sandra in NC

[JennifersLost]

Do you think it's good or bad? Why?

 

I think it's bad - I think it gives teachers the idea they can slack off without being held accountable and I think it prevents administrations from allowing younger, more enthusiastic teachers to step into new positions.

 

Do you believe it impacts the quality of K-12 public schooling? If yes, positively or negatively?

 

Yes - negatively. I've dealt with teachers in several school systems who were very detrimental to the schools they taught at, but since they had seniority or tenure, could not be removed.

 

Do you have any thoughts on merit pay for teachers, either as an addition or a replacement for the tenure system?

 

I would only give merit pay to teachers who were nominated for it by the parents of students actually taking their classes. I would not base it on other teachers' or staff recommendations. I would definitely NOT base it on test scores. That would encourage cheating.

 

Did tenure in any way play a part in your decision to homeschool your children?

 

Yes. Some of my worst experiences in school as a child were in classroom run by tenured teachers. In one case a teacher wasted an entire year. Everyone knew she was awful. I'd been warned about her by older students for years. She was actually going insane, and yet still could not be removed from her position. It was scary to be in her classroom and it was awful to know that I was learning nothing from the hours and hours I spent in her presence.

 

After homeschooling my children for seven years, my kids went to public school again. My oldest son got a gym teacher whose behavior was quite out-of-bounds. I spoke to the principal, who said my only recourse was to speak to the teacher. The teacher completely ignored my concerns and then spent the rest of the semester picking on my child. My son, who had been enjoying being back at public school, quit. He does not want to return.

 

Everyone in the school district I spoke to - other parents, students, teachers and even a principal at another school told me this man has quite a reputation. Girls have complained for years that he's inappropriate. Boys complain about being singled out and ridiculed. I have learned that in each class he teaches he picks one kid to be the "scapegoat" and spends the whole semester or year making that kid's life miserable. He cannot be removed from the system, though.....

 

Nobody should get a free ride. I see no reason for teachers not to be as accountable in their twentieth year as they are in their first year. Not only should the tenure and seniority systems be dismantled; parents should be given a role in the hiring and firing of all school personnel.

 

 

 

Thank you very much, MKS.

[Snickerdoodle]

Do you mean merit pay where the teacher gets to decide how to teach his class, has funding to provide excellent materials to his students and is based on achievement scores as measured against the children's peers nationwide?

 

Or do you mean merit pay where someone else chooses the (scripted) curriculum and is measured on the child's achievement based on NCLB achievement standards?

 

 

I think rewards for work done well (merit pay) always improves the quality of the finished product. However, a major confounding factor nowadays is that teachers have so little freedom in their classes and so many external controls that the creative process is pushed out by the volume of totally ridiculous stuff that must be accomplished just to comply with the administration.

[Heather in Neverland]

Do you think it's good or bad? Why?

Tenure does nothing more than protect lazy teachers. If you are a good teacher you don't need tenure to protect you and yes, I know first hand...I taught high school for 12 years and am currently in administration.

 

Do you believe it impacts the quality of K-12 public schooling? If yes, positively or negatively? The effect on education is extremely negative. Lazy, inept teachers get all the choice classes and get away with doing nothing. In the typical school district, a tenured teacher would have to do something extreme, like have sex with a student, before you would get fired.

 

Do you have any thoughts on merit pay for teachers, either as an addition or a replacement for the tenure system? You'd have to define merit pay a little more. I do believe in yearly raises but I do think performance should factor more and not simply longevity.

 

Did tenure in any way play a part in your decision to homeschool your children? Not directly. I just would never send my child to public school. And I know that seems strange since I work in public schools but it is BECAUSE I work in public schools that my children will never darken their doorstep.

[Donna]

If this goes well, I may return with other questions, but today I am interested in hearing this board's members thoughts on the tenure system.

 

Do you think it's good or bad? Why?

 

Do you believe it impacts the quality of K-12 public schooling? If yes, positively or negatively?

 

Do you have any thoughts on merit pay for teachers, either as an addition or a replacement for the tenure system?

 

Did tenure in any way play a part in your decision to homeschool your children?

 

Tenure had no impact on my decision to homeschool.

 

I agree with Susan in KY that it is a poor system and has an adverse effect on the quality of public school education. It also costs the public school system inordinate amounts of money when they attempt to remove teachers who are not performing. In a state like mine where property taxes are the highest in the nation because of public schools, this is a big concern. Public schools in this state claim they are performing better but in many cases they have simply redefined failure and moved everyone on regardless of what they know and how much they have learned (but that's another topic isn't it, sorry.)

 

The benefits of a merit based system would depend on how the system was implemented. Even a step system based on time teaching without tenure is preferrable. How long someone has held a position should have no bearing on whether or not a person keeps their job. It is not an efficient or even a fair system for young teachers or good teachers who do their job wonderfully.

[MKS]

Thank you all so much for all these wonderful, thoughtful responses.

 

I intentionally left my questions somewhat open ended so as to illicit a well-rounded group of responses.

 

Now I can reveal...

 

(my opinion follows for those who are interested)

 

that it is my hope to prove with my thesis that tenure, is, if nothing else, a bad PR move on the part of public schools, and there are other systems which would be more beneficial to students and at least as beneficial to quality teachers.

[MKS]

Catherine, I will certainly check out the book you suggested. Here is a fascinating article that further illuminates the Chinese/American math disparity.