Classical recitations for KG questions

[AngelaR]

I am a first time homeschooler, who decided back in February to HS my kids for the 20-21 school year, and was so excited about the prospect, I had all my curriculum set by the time we had to pull the kids out because of COVID-19 in March.  I attempted to start them on their curriculum for next year, but we encountered some issues, particularly with my little man, who just turned 5 in April.  He had a REALLY rough time having Mommy suddenly as his teacher instead of Miss Amy, and there was much weeping and gnashing of teeth for the first 8 weeks, until I figured out I was pushing him too much and expecting too much from him.  I pretty much tossed everything I had started with him, and began getting lesson ideas from Preschool bloggers that had lots of fun hands on activities. It was  a night and day difference.  We took a break from school about 3 weeks ago, and he seems to have a completely different attitude now towards school (and me as his teacher!).  

I had originally chosen Memoria Press because I loved their read alouds and their enrichment activities; also I really loved the literature they do for grades 1 and 2.  I decided to do AAR for our phonics, however, because I'd heard rave reviews about it.  Also, I decided on Singapore Math Dimensions because a) a math teacher friend recommended it b) I figured it would keep the kids up to speed if they ever have to attend public school down the road and c) I picked Dimensions over Standard and Primary because the pictures were prettier (I know, I know...!).  I have posted about the struggles with math elsewhere.  So far, we're doing well with AAR.  We haven't started handwriting yet, and while I was originally planning on doing MP's copybooks, the more I see how my son needs hands-on learning, the less I'm liking the copybook idea for now (although I totally love the idea for myself!), and I've purchased HWOT as an introduction to writing for him, and maybe we'll introduce the copybooks later.  So...actually, I guess I'm really not following MP at all really, except for the read aloud schedule and the enrichment activities, as well as art, music and poetry.  I WANT to do the recitation with the kids, because I see how easily my daughter memorizes things and I'm totally on board with giving the kids a bunch of  handy facts to memorize so that later, they won't struggle so much trying to memorize that sort of thing.  But, frankly, I don't see my kids either standing there stiffly and doing a formal recitation like MP recommends.  Also, my son seems to have trouble memorizing things like his address, birthday, and until just recently, the alphabet, so much so that I'm investigating whether he has dyslexia (although he memorizes lines from his favorite TV shows with no problem and rattles them off during meals!).  

Anyway, all that background to say, how would you ladies recommend approaching the recitation bit?  I've also seen how much more pleasurable songs make memorization for both me and the kids.  But MP doesn't have their recitation put to songs, and I'm not sure if there is a curriculum/company that does have all that sort of thing already put to song.  I guess I'm just looking for ideas about how to implement recitation with a wiggly boy who might have trouble memorizing things? 

[2_girls_mommy]

In k I like to do poetry memorization. We read it at bedtime and say it throughout the day- I'll quote Robert Louis Stevenson's  The Swing while DD swings, and next thing you know she's saying it every time she's outside swinging. We read poetry books at bedtime, and focus on one every now and then. Address and phone number are good things, last name and how to spell, sometimes I've done Bible verses or the continents, or books of the Bible. But it's more about what goes along naturally with what we're learning. I never do everything on a memory list. We use suggestions from the WTM for memory work each year, and if memory serves me right there aren't memory work suggestions for k. I also attended a memory work workshop by the guy from The Institute for Excellence in Writing and he said poetry, poetry, poetry for memorywork, and I think he even wrote a book on it that he was there promoting. That always stuck with me. 

[2_girls_mommy]

I've never liked the memorywork of facts for the sake of memorizing. We memorize within subjects- recite dates of relevant things we are studying in history, math facts, Latin vocabulary or endings, but not before we are learning Latin. We just do the memorywork within each subject and certainly not standing stiffly in our living room. When I taught Latin in a co-op classroom, that was a good time to have standing up reciting time because everyone was doing it. It's awkward one kid in their home doing it. Like others said, it's while bouncing around doing normal life at home for little people.

Edited July 25, 2020 by 2_girls_mommy

[Mbelle]

I have used MP curruiculum a lot, but I reallly don't like it for the younger years.  It really seemed to be a joy suck and we ditched it.

I did like using several of their options in middle school, but adjusted their expectations to fit.  We used their Latin, Comp and some Lit during from about 5th -8th and that worked very well.  

[gck21]

I had a similar experience with Classical Conversations' memory work program. I am not sure if MP's recitation work is similar to CC's, but after trying for 2 years to understand the approach and work with it, I decided not to continue with CC for next year. I hear "young kids like to memorize" in classical circles all the time, but I think the idea behind that is somewhat deformed when it turns into "children like to memorize lists of facts (which are total nonsense to them right now)".  Your mileage will vary depending on your child's compliance (mine was not) and their ability/will to make connections (mine could see zero connection between Genghis Khan of the storybook and Genghis Khan of the timeline and that worried me). I recently read The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark and Ravi Jain and that, plus some Charlotte Mason (mostly as interpreted by Karen Glass), has been helpful for me in seeing the classical emphasis on early years "memorization" in a different light.

Liberal Arts Tradition has three categories for the education of young children. Perhaps they seem obvious to most people, but it was SO helpful to me as an outline for elementary education. They start with piety, which includes giving your child the knowledge of your family traditions, religious traditions (memorizing Bible passages, creeds, catechisms, etc.), and social traditions (manners). Then they talk about poetic knowledge, giving the child poems, music, fairy tales, folk tales, myths, history stories, science stories, etc. Knowing stories and poems is a kind of memorization, although definitely not a list of facts! Then they talk about gymnastic knowledge, the importance of building things/making things/running around/climbing/jumping/swinging. There is a lovely part in the book where one of them shows how the children who had splashed in the stream (or something, I honestly can't remember the exact example) and had direct physical experiences in the world, when they were older, understood the physics lesson in a deeper way.

I loved this way of thinking about "the grammar stage"-- like "the grammar of science" doesn't have to be something like "memorizing the words for 4 types of weather fronts" but instead having physical experiences outside. Those physical experiences are a memory peg (and a better memory peg for my child than the word!). And "the grammar of language" doesn't have to be memorizing a list of helping verbs but could be acting out a scene from Shakespeare or knowing a nursery rhyme.

[ByGrace3]

Your line up sounds similar to our Ker this year. We are doing AAR, HWOT, SM, MP Enrichment, and MP recitation. We also do Bible Study Guide for all Ages and a morning basket (more memory stuff as a family). The MP recitation for K is VERY basic. I definitely don't see my 5 year old standing still as we learn. I do see a need for that -- the ability to stand tall, make eye contact, speak in a projected voice, etc. but if they are focusing all of their energy on those things, they aren't putting their energy into learning. When we memorize, we jump on the trampoline, run a lap around the house, jump in place, etc. Once a week for "assessment" I may ask him on Fridays to try it still. But that is literally 1-2 minutes. 

Also, you might want to take a look at Veritas Press-- they do a lot more memory to music -- math facts, shurley grammar, lyrical life science

Oh, and for Bible memory-- we use MegaVerses-- larger chunk of Bible passages set to music. My kids love it. 

[Emily ZL]

I agree with what everyone else is saying. I just wanted to add that when my girls were in pre-k4 and K together, we would slowly memorize a poem and a Bible verse, maybe 3 minutes per day. That's it! And it was great. They raced in circles around the house yelling "the rain is raining all around!!!!..." When they got the whole thing easily, I put it in their notebook and they could draw a little picture if they wanted.  (They usually didn't, lol.) But that was such a great use of 3 minutes. We could do it while the kids were playing with blocks or animal friends. 

The whole "how many hours are in a day?" type recitation is a little silly. It's not like there's a benefit to having that early vs learning it normally, like you might get to adulthood and not know there were 24 hours. But filling the kids with poems has a direct benefit on their language patterns and skills, as well as building their memory muscles.

[Mbelle]

I want to add that for 3rd grade we will be using MP Christian Studies I, but we will only do it orally.  We will try to memorize bible verses, but the goal is just to be familiar with the bible.  I have used their K-2 bible as well and we just read through the suggested stories and sometimes memorize bible verses.  We will also use the lit curriculum, but we will do very little of the workbook.  Perhaps we will write out an answer to one or two questions and discuss the story together.  For extra read alouds we use the Sonlight reading list.  

[8filltheheart]

We have tea time one afternoon a week.  The kids get to recite something or play a song during our tea time.  They all look forward to it.  We had it today and my 8 yr old grandson ASKED to come over and have tea time with the girls.  He stood up and recited a poem he had memorized.  🙂  Fun and relevant (they get to pick whatever they want.)  My 10 yr old selected a free verse poem this week.  I was surprised by her choice bc of the lack of rhyme for reciting, but she did an excellent job.

FWIW, I have absolutely zero value for the poll-parrot POV of early childhood education.  What we do, we do for fun, not b/c what they memorize will have some deep meaning in their long-term educations.

[2_girls_mommy]

4 hours ago, gck21 said:

I had a similar experience with Classical Conversations' memory work program. I am not sure if MP's recitation work is similar to CC's, but after trying for 2 years to understand the approach and work with it, I decided not to continue with CC for next year. I hear "young kids like to memorize" in classical circles all the time, but I think the idea behind that is somewhat deformed when it turns into "children like to memorize lists of facts (which are total nonsense to them right now)".  Your mileage will vary depending on your child's compliance (mine was not) and their ability/will to make connections (mine could see zero connection between Genghis Khan of the storybook and Genghis Khan of the timeline and that worried me). I recently read The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark and Ravi Jain and that, plus some Charlotte Mason (mostly as interpreted by Karen Glass), has been helpful for me in seeing the classical emphasis on early years "memorization" in a different light.

Liberal Arts Tradition has three categories for the education of young children. Perhaps they seem obvious to most people, but it was SO helpful to me as an outline for elementary education. They start with piety, which includes giving your child the knowledge of your family traditions, religious traditions (memorizing Bible passages, creeds, catechisms, etc.), and social traditions (manners). Then they talk about poetic knowledge, giving the child poems, music, fairy tales, folk tales, myths, history stories, science stories, etc. Knowing stories and poems is a kind of memorization, although definitely not a list of facts! Then they talk about gymnastic knowledge, the importance of building things/making things/running around/climbing/jumping/swinging. There is a lovely part in the book where one of them shows how the children who had splashed in the stream (or something, I honestly can't remember the exact example) and had direct physical experiences in the world, when they were older, understood the physics lesson in a deeper way.

I loved this way of thinking about "the grammar stage"-- like "the grammar of science" doesn't have to be something like "memorizing the words for 4 types of weather fronts" but instead having physical experiences outside. Those physical experiences are a memory peg (and a better memory peg for my child than the word!). And "the grammar of language" doesn't have to be memorizing a list of helping verbs but could be acting out a scene from Shakespeare or knowing a nursery rhyme.

Adding this book to my library reserve list!! I have internalized and understood all of that. I've never thought CC's idea of elementary recitation and long memorywork as classical education, but couldn't explain it so succinctly. This book sounds like exactly what I need. 

[AngelaR]

23 hours ago, Mbelle said:

I have used MP curruiculum a lot, but I reallly don't like it for the younger years.  It really seemed to be a joy suck and we ditched it.

I did like using several of their options in middle school, but adjusted their expectations to fit.  We used their Latin, Comp and some Lit during from about 5th -8th and that worked very well.  

What did you use instead?  I’m beginning to think it may definitely be a joy suck, if done as they say, but I’m definitely tweaking it. Hoping the kids like the art, music and read alouds. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by AngelaR

[AngelaR]

22 hours ago, gck21 said:

I had a similar experience with Classical Conversations' memory work program. I am not sure if MP's recitation work is similar to CC's, but after trying for 2 years to understand the approach and work with it, I decided not to continue with CC for next year. I hear "young kids like to memorize" in classical circles all the time, but I think the idea behind that is somewhat deformed when it turns into "children like to memorize lists of facts (which are total nonsense to them right now)".  Your mileage will vary depending on your child's compliance (mine was not) and their ability/will to make connections (mine could see zero connection between Genghis Khan of the storybook and Genghis Khan of the timeline and that worried me). I recently read The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark and Ravi Jain and that, plus some Charlotte Mason (mostly as interpreted by Karen Glass), has been helpful for me in seeing the classical emphasis on early years "memorization" in a different light.

Liberal Arts Tradition has three categories for the education of young children. Perhaps they seem obvious to most people, but it was SO helpful to me as an outline for elementary education. They start with piety, which includes giving your child the knowledge of your family traditions, religious traditions (memorizing Bible passages, creeds, catechisms, etc.), and social traditions (manners). Then they talk about poetic knowledge, giving the child poems, music, fairy tales, folk tales, myths, history stories, science stories, etc. Knowing stories and poems is a kind of memorization, although definitely not a list of facts! Then they talk about gymnastic knowledge, the importance of building things/making things/running around/climbing/jumping/swinging. There is a lovely part in the book where one of them shows how the children who had splashed in the stream (or something, I honestly can't remember the exact example) and had direct physical experiences in the world, when they were older, understood the physics lesson in a deeper way.

I loved this way of thinking about "the grammar stage"-- like "the grammar of science" doesn't have to be something like "memorizing the words for 4 types of weather fronts" but instead having physical experiences outside. Those physical experiences are a memory peg (and a better memory peg for my child than the word!). And "the grammar of language" doesn't have to be memorizing a list of helping verbs but could be acting out a scene from Shakespeare or knowing a nursery rhyme.

I LOVE this!  I’m definitely checking this book out. The approach you outlined seems to make so much more sense for my kids that memorizing lists of things!!!

[AngelaR]

18 hours ago, Mbelle said:

I want to add that for 3rd grade we will be using MP Christian Studies I, but we will only do it orally.  We will try to memorize bible verses, but the goal is just to be familiar with the bible.  I have used their K-2 bible as well and we just read through the suggested stories and sometimes memorize bible verses.  We will also use the lit curriculum, but we will do very little of the workbook.  Perhaps we will write out an answer to one or two questions and discuss the story together.  For extra read alouds we use the Sonlight reading list.  

Yes, I actually haven’t taken the plunge on the Storytime Treasures That accompany the 1st grade literature, because frankly I hated the questions. I’m tending towards just having my daughter do narration a la Charlotte Mason after she reads it to see if she comprehends...not really sure. She just learning to read, after all!

[Mbelle]

2 hours ago, AngelaR said:

What did you use instead?  I’m beginning to think it may definitely be a joy suck, if done as they say, but I’m definitely tweaking it. Hoping the kids like the art, music and read alouds. 

I'm trying to remember.  We started to use some Abeka.  The Letters and Sounds and Writing with phonics.  We did continue to use the Primary Phonics readers and American Language readers that MP uses.  We used every set of the Primary Phonics readers and 3 of the American Language Readers.  1st grade was a bit a mix up year.   We finished up using the K Abeka phonics and then did 1st grade letters and sounds and went through summer.  edit:  We also used the Bob Books in the very beginning of learning to read.

In 2nd grade we moved to using all Abeka 2nd grade Letters and Sounds and the Writing with phonics along with their readers.  He really liked the readers.

He did like the enrichment and read aloud stories from MP so we did those.  We also used their K-2 Christian Studies.  He memorized the bible verses in 1st grade, but did not in 2nd and just simply read the bible stories and discussed if we wanted to. 

Erik Carls Animals Animals is a good book and A Childs Book of Poems is also good.  We read these for fun at night sometimes.  

I use the Sonlight list of books for read alouds.

We used Apples and Pears for spelling but then switched to All About Spelling.  I like both, but Apples and Pears was too much writing at that age, so we swtiched.  He's not a great speller or I would just use a traditional spelling currriculum.

I have always used Horizons Math, but that is just what we like, so I can't compare with Rod and Staff which MP uses.

I read through a volume of Story of the World each year and while I read he colors the picture and we do the map together.  It's pretty easy and he really likes it.  In first grade he did a narration notebook and drew pictures of the story and i would write down a sentence or two about it and he would copy it into the notebook.  He loved it.  I should probabl do that again this year.  We will see. LOL

I think I like Abeka better for K-2.   Then I like to move away from them and use what I like from different providers.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Mbelle

[Mbelle]

2 hours ago, AngelaR said:

Yes, I actually haven’t taken the plunge on the Storytime Treasures That accompany the 1st grade literature, because frankly I hated the questions. I’m tending towards just having my daughter do narration a la Charlotte Mason after she reads it to see if she comprehends...not really sure. She just learning to read, after all!

Right!  It is a great thing if they can just enjoy reading.