mmasc Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Ok, I’m almost certain I’ve asked this before when I posted on here about Math U See vs Saxon, but I can’t find the thread anywhere! If someone could link it for me I’d really appreciate it! I know there’s a thread where you guys talked about Saxon for the learning challenged! (Or feel free to add your thoughts on Saxon for a student who most likely has dyslexia and possibly Dyscalculia.) Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Saxon was a disaster for my son who has dyslexia. His lack of fluency with...well...everything academic made the problem sets entirely too long and he was unable to unify all of the little parts things are carved up into in Saxon into a unified whole. When there got to be too many parts, he had a total meltdown and was unable to move forward (halfway through 7/6). We switched to MUS for six months, and all the parts came together. He placed into Beta and went through Zeta during that time, and he never had trouble with arithmetic again. He is now a successful robotics engineer. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasc Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, EKS said: Saxon was a disaster for my son who has dyslexia. His lack of fluency with...well...everything academic made the problem sets entirely too long and he was unable to unify all of the little parts things are carved up into in Saxon into a unified whole. When there got to be too many parts, he had a total meltdown and was unable to move forward (halfway through 7/6). We switched to MUS for six months, and all the parts came together. He placed into Beta and went through Zeta during that time, and he never had trouble with arithmetic again. He is now a successful robotics engineer. Thank you. I think I remember you answering some questions for me last time. My gut tells me all the different types and quantities of problems will be a disaster for him, but he NEEDS that constant review that I just can’t get a grip on with Math U See. He hates manipulatives so we don’t use them either. It’s just so hard trying to figure out how to keep long division, long multiplication, GCF, volume formula, etc in a regular rotation so he doesn’t forget. The mastery part works bc he needs to work on the same thing for a long time, but it doesn’t work bc I don’t think his brain will ‘master’ it forever and ever without constant review. I keep looking at Saxon since it’s so different from what we’ve used, but I think my heart knows it won’t work 😔 Also, everyone’s stories of success and coming out on the other side is so helpful. I can’t wait to go back and read all my posts on here 7 or 8 years from now. 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Keeper Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, mmasc said: Thank you. I think I remember you answering some questions for me last time. My gut tells me all the different types and quantities of problems will be a disaster for him, but he NEEDS that constant review that I just can’t get a grip on with Math U See. He hates manipulatives so we don’t use them either. It’s just so hard trying to figure out how to keep long division, long multiplication, GCF, volume formula, etc in a regular rotation so he doesn’t forget. The mastery part works bc he needs to work on the same thing for a long time, but it doesn’t work bc I don’t think his brain will ‘master’ it forever and ever without constant review. I keep looking at Saxon since it’s so different from what we’ve used, but I think my heart knows it won’t work 😔 Also, everyone’s stories of success and coming out on the other side is so helpful. I can’t wait to go back and read all my posts on here 7 or 8 years from now. 😊 What age/grade is your student? For one of mine with LD's (working memory deficit) Rod and Staff math has been very good for him; he just finished the 8th grade book last week. R&S is more mastery than Saxon (a chapter, not just scattered lessons, on fractions, etc.) but it does have constant review of previous material in each lesson in the oral math in TM and in the student books. I wish R&S had an algebra. CLE Algebra looks good (similar set up to R&S) , but I have no experience with it. I did try Saxon Algebra with another one of mine who has a LD (unofficially diagnosed) in math; he did very well, the bit sized bits and constant practice were great for him--until partway through the book. Then he sank HARD. Here's a thread in which I try to explain that... Ironically enough, I am planning on using Saxon Algebra 1/2 for the kid who just finished R&S 8. 😉 Partially because I want a gentle intro to Algebra, that also has lot of Pre-A review. I am keeping my set of Key to Algebra handy for when he will need a more time to park on a topic to help him see the concept better, not just practice the algorithm. We'll see how that goes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasc Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 He’s 11 (will be 12 this summer)/working at about 5th grade level I’d say. He’s a little more than halfway finished with Math U See Epsilon, which is 5th grade I think. We actually used R&S Math for him from about 1st-3rd. Then we went to Math U See Gamma due to some issues with R&S at that point. I did actually buy the fifth grade set just to see the introduction of topics and what all was covered, but my son has a hard time with the ‘new thing’ every day. He hates, hates learning something new every day in math, even if it is just a little bite-sized chunk. That’s the one thing that works well for him with MUS...intro to topic on one day and then practice it for several without anything new. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, mmasc said: I don’t think his brain will ‘master’ it forever and ever without constant review. Have you looked at Evan Moor's Daily Math Practice? Also, by your definition of mastery above, the vast majority of people fail to master arithmetic beyond basic fractions and decimals. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) I am using Saxon 5/4 with my 11-year-old who has autism. The review is good for him, and so is the slow introduction of new concepts. I supplement when he has trouble understanding. I bring in extra practice when it is moving a little fast. I get out manipulatives. I search “how to teach _____” or “intervention ______” as needed. I would not do it blindly, or without having a good solid level when he started it. Anyway — if what you are doing is working ———— I think keep it, and look for something to add review. It will be easier to add review than switch programs. Saxon is very, very high structure in the sense that the lessons are predictable in what they look like and the format. That is very, very important for my son to be able to see a lesson and not feel threatened or not know what to expect. It’s very straightforward that way for him. Anyway, here are some ideas for review. One, make a review box. Make index cards that have the name of a concept of type of problem. Go through the cards and make/find a problem of the kind on the card. If it’s done easily, then the card goes in the back. If not, it goes in the front for more frequent review. There are a lot of ideas for using review boxes. Two, look for a workbook that will provide review. If you can find one that is a good fit, it’s done for you. If the problems in workbooks are not the right mix or difficulty, it is harder, but if you did a review box, it takes a minute to set up, but then it’s pretty easy to make sure nothing is forgotten when you are thinking about what to review. It’s also great for vocabulary terms. Another thing is, if you see a lot is being really forgotten, maybe you need to slow down to make more time for review. Some reminders are normal. Totally, totally forgetting can mean there needs to be more review and less new material, or else just more time spent on math if that would be practical or desirable. I haven’t seen math u see, but it’s very possible you can just take problems from those books, even if he has done them some time in the past, and re use those problems (that you write down), and he will not remember the exact problem and get some useful review that way. Edit: overall I have been very pleased with Saxon Intermediate 3 and Saxon 5/4. It takes some personalization but — it is working out well overall. Edited June 2, 2020 by Lecka 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Really it sounds like math u see is working for you and Saxon doesn’t look like it would go well. Feel free to add review! You can slow down to make time for review, or add a separate math session to the day, or do review 1-2 days a week if that is often enough. Adjust to what you see. Weekly review will be enough for kids and seeing every review topic 1-2 times a month. Other kids would need more review than that. It just depends. And slowing down is always an option if there is more review needed. You might see that at first it takes a lot of time/review, but after you do review it may start to take less time because less has been — not reviewed for a while. It’s okay to need more review, too. Every time you review it strengthens connections! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasc Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 These are great ideas. Thank you! I never thought of a review box. That could be really good for what we need. And I’ll check out Evan Moor too. When I refer to ‘mastery’ meaning he knows it forever and ever, I was really just exaggerating in that I find mastery math curricula tends to expect the child to have it so ‘mastered’ that there is less review. At least that’s what I’ve seen. But when we’re on a particular topic, it does seem pretty mastered at the time. Here’s an example, we worked on multiplication for ages and he mastered well imo. Today on a fraction worksheet, one of the review problems was finding the volume. So, needed to be reminded of the volume formula (which I totally expected as it hasn’t been covered a lot), but then when he was multiplying say 1,250 X 85, he needed to be reminded ‘where to start’. Once I told him, he remembered and completed it correctly. I’ll look at Saxon more throughly and the Evan Moor workbook, as well as start a list of all of the topics I think he needs to see weekly (as opposed to what MUS puts on the sheets weekly) and make a decision. I know we will finish Epsilon (fractions) and I do think it makes sense to move on to Zeta. I think that could be a natural place to re-evaluate where to go. Thanks again for your input! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Okay — for that multiplication reminder. I think it all depends — if you give him a similar problem tomorrow, does he remember? If you give him a similar problem one week from now, does he remember? If you give him a similar problem two weeks from now, does he remember? And again I think needing one little reminder is really not bad! That’s not the same as totally forgetting. Still it would be great if the reminder was not needed. It could vary anywhere from — you really ought to go over it every day for a little while and then try dropping off days, to see if he remembers....... to — he is solid tomorrow, and then one week from now he is solid. It doesn’t sound like he forgot too badly, which is good! At the same time — it is good to add review. I ended up doing Saxon instead of a review box, but I made up some cards to review vocabulary words and it really does not take long. And it’s an easy way to not leave things out. And a lot of problems are easy to make up when you know “make up a problem of this type.” Or easy to find one online or from a previous lesson. It’s definitely worth a try I think, and might be the right amount of review :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) https://www.retrievalpractice.org/library This is just motivating to me for review — but if you scroll down there are guides for spaced practice, retrieval practice, and interleaving. Basically — it is good to struggle to remember. This helps to strengthen memories. It’s good to review and okay (and still beneficial) if review is a little hard. And more motivating, encouraging articles about reviewing and it being okay if review is needed and isn’t necessarily the smoothest: https://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/spring-2004/ask-cognitive-scientist-practice-makes-perfect https://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/summer-2002/ask-cognitive-scientist Really — if math u see is working (and it sounds like it is!) you can have all the benefits of a mastery approach, and all the benefits of review just by adding in some review. I thought it seemed really overwhelming at first how much there might be to review, but when I started making cards it turned out — it really was NOT that many. As much as it was too much to keep track of mentally. Although I ended up feeling Saxon was a good fit here. Edited June 2, 2020 by Lecka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I just bumped a similar thread I posted about a year ago. I got some good suggestions! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasc Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 Thanks for all the tips! I’ll look at those articles later tonight when I have time to read them. And the other thread too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 6/2/2020 at 11:26 AM, EKS said: Saxon was a disaster for my son who has dyslexia. His lack of fluency with...well...everything academic made the problem sets entirely too long and he was unable to unify all of the little parts things are carved up into in Saxon into a unified whole. When there got to be too many parts, he had a total meltdown and was unable to move forward (halfway through 7/6). We switched to MUS for six months, and all the parts came together. He placed into Beta and went through Zeta during that time, and he never had trouble with arithmetic again. He is now a successful robotics engineer. EKS, or anyone who used MUS, what did you switch to after that? I'm just curious as I'm trying to decide math for my dyslexic/dysgraphic 5th grader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 53 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said: EKS, or anyone who used MUS, what did you switch to after that? I'm just curious as I'm trying to decide math for my dyslexic/dysgraphic 5th grader. We did Jacobs Algebra after Zeta. If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now I would have done a year of DO Prealgebra first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, EKS said: We did Jacobs Algebra after Zeta. If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now I would have done a year of DO Prealgebra first. Good to know! I'm a fan of both of those. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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