what other information will I get from these tests for dyslexia?

[caedmyn]

I’ve found a Barton tutoring place a few hours from us that does some testing for dyslexia and other things for a decent price.  They don’t use the Barton tests but some others.  I’m considering getting my 7 yo tested.  I already know he’s dyslexic but it would be nice to have someone confirm it, and to have a piece of paper saying he’s dyslexic for DH.  My main reason for doing testing would be for any additional information the testing would provide.  This is my 4th kid with dyslexia and he appears to be the most severely dyslexic and also the glitchiest kid overall.  I suspect he has pretty low working memory and processing speed, even compared to his dyslexic siblings.  He’s also somewhat uncoordinated in general and seems to have some visual issues (tracking etc) though he has only been evaluated by an OT for that.  
 

The basic dyslexia screening they do includes the CTOPP and WIAT-3 subtests for early reading skills, word reading, pseudo-word decoding, alphabet writing fluency, spelling, sentence composition, and reading comprehension.  They can add on the Developmental Test of Visual Processing and WIAT-3 subtests for listening comprehension and oral expression.  What kind of useful information am I likely to get from these tests?

 

[PeterPan]

Here's something to get you started. https://strategicpsychology.com.au/difference-wisc-wiat/  What typically happens is an IQ test is paired with achievement testing. So a psych might do the WISC for IQ and then do the WIAT for achievement. It's just their system, because that's what a psych does. And then they read the tea leaves.

So the testing they're offering you is good stuff and will do what they're saying. They're a dyslexia center offering you dyslexia testing. How much is this going to run you? The TILLS might be shorter and give you the same basic data. It's typically run by SLPs and SLPs might be billable by your insurance. It's more like a 90 minute test, so you'd be looking at less billing hours.

1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

I suspect he has pretty low working memory and processing speed, even compared to his dyslexic siblings.  He’s also somewhat uncoordinated in general and seems to have some visual issues (tracking etc) though he has only been evaluated by an OT for that.

Iirc the CTOPP does kick out a working memory score. Usually processing speed and working memory are in the IQ testing a psych does. So no, it doesn't look like they're getting you processing speed because they're not doing IQ testing. And IQ testing is used to read the tea leaves and compare with the results of the achievement testing to look for patterns.

The visual processing testing may turn up something, sure. It's good no matter who does it. I took my ds to the developmental optometrist and had it done. Actually what they did was a VMI, which our myriad OTs should have done and never did. THAT was incredibly enlightening. 

It's hard when you're paying for testing yourself. You already know he's dyslexic, so does this get you paper trail for access to what you want access to? It sounds like you're wanting to know if *more* is going on, and to get that answered, you need psych evals, sorry.

[PeterPan]

If your insurance will cover SLP evals, then you could see if an SLP specializing in literacy could do some testing for you. They could do all the dyslexia testing and screen for some other stuff. They'll bit at half the rate of a psych. They'll typically have tests for narrative language, pragmatics, maybe even some screening tools for ADHD, etc. That would be a miracle person, but there are some out there. Like if I drive to the big city, I can find one or two. 

Not saying the testing center isn't offering good testing. It's just if you're question is what more is going on, you need a psych. So if you can't do that but can do an SLP, that's something. Or you could use the testing as a springboard with evidence to the ps for them to eval. But you already said there was a reason why that doesn't work, right? 

The thing you should know, and I'm not saying this is a fun answer but it's an answer is that if you go through the ps eval process, when they botch it you can file for IEE and get them to pay for private evals. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

If you're going to pay a bunch of money for evals, I'd get it done by a psychologist, so you have an "official" diagnosis. My PS does not have a school psychologist on staff, so we contract out to a local person. If it were my kid, I'd want someone who is an expert in giving these tests. A Barton tutoring center may have people that do the testing, but are they qualified? Most of these tests have certain requirements to even be able to buy the test (for some tests you have to have a PhD to even order it). The CTOPP, I think, can be given by anyone with a M.A. in a relevant field) who is trained in how to give it. 

[Kanin]

The WIAT-3 is just a basic academic eval. You'll get standard scores and percentile ranks for different thinks like word reading, pseudoword reading, spelling, math fluency, etc. That, combined with the CTOPP, would not give you a "real" diagnosis, but you would be able to be pretty certain about dyslexia from just those tests. It really depends on if you need the "real" diagnosis to access any services. The WIAT-3 is really simple to give, just a basic academic evaluation, and you can give it as often as you want to monitor progress. At my school we do it every 3 years, as one piece of evidence for IEP re-eligibility meetings.

[Lecka]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Individual_Achievement_Test
 

This is the Wikipedia page for the WIAT.  My son had it recently as part of updating his IEP.

It did not give info about things like working memory.  
 

A common test that does that is WISC.  
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Intelligence_Scale_for_Children

 

Here is that Wikipedia page.

I think in wanting a broader view and to know about working memory, that is more what you would want.

I think for making direct decisions about “what to do about this child’s reading instruction” what they are offering seems good.

Okay, here is another side issue.  So on achievement testing it can give scores and there is some interpretation and analysis there of “this explains this, here is a strength and weakness.”

But there might not be anything to “prove” anything to your husband.  It may not say “here is why there are low scores.”  
 

As far as public school I know there are times that there are low scores and it is blamed on teachers and kids not getting what they need educationally.  
 

And parents do not always want to hear “hey my child is really struggling in this area.”  Like — it can still be “somebody’s fault” because why were they not taught better? 
 

So if he has some level of buy-in, that is promising. If he doesn’t, I personally have seen testing be totally dismissed by parents and seen as either meaningless or making excuses or trying to label.  
 

Or else “it’s a low score let’s throw up our hands.”

So I think if it helps you, that is great, and I think you could get useful information as a teacher or personal validation as a teacher.

If your husband is not in the same headspace as you I would not count on it to change anything.  
 

My husband just dismisses or blows some things off sometimes. He is just not interested, and he is not interested in being interested.  Or he will just forget!  He won’t remember some important-to-me information!!!!!!!!  Like — 3 months later he might have no memory of any details and a different take-away/summary.  His take-away might be “oh that, it was kind-of a waste of time.”  Or he might remember “they said everything was great.”  And that might not have been what I took away at all.  
 

My husband thinks I do a good job but he is not involved with details. 

I have had help with him hearing something from a teacher.  That has clicked with him more.  Just recently I had a conversation with him in which he had forgotten one of our kids was slightly below grade level on a progress report and so there is a reason for doing extra math.  I know he knew at the time but he forgot.  But it is a lot more meaningful to him for something to be from a teacher.  Especially if I agree with the teacher.  He has never given the same credence to testing.  
 

He also tends to say things like “well I think he is doing well!”  Or bring up something that IS good but may be unrelated.  Like “well I think he is doing well” can be his response to some information that is more “he has a weak area” or “he needs extra help in this area.”  
 

So unless he is going to have buy-in or connection to it, testing will not change any of that.

I have gotten a lot more out of it as far as relatives who wonder if I am either making my kids do too much or too little.  As I have gotten both.  
 

And really my husband is supportive, almost all relatives are supportive.  But they have their own opinions or do not have the same information, or don’t necessarily see things the same way with the same information.  

[Lecka]

I think also consider — would your husband go to meet the evaluators with you (to have an opinion and impression).  Will he hear the results when you do.  
 

I think it makes a difference.  
 

My husband went with me for one and observed it and talked to the woman, and that is the one that he got the most out of By Far.  Edit:  he was also just receptive going into it.  Time had passed and he was basically on the same page with me before the appointment!
 

He has also gone with me for just the results, for a different thing, and he walked out going “she said everything was fine.”  Edit:  He was not really on board with it for this one.  

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I think also consider — would your husband go to meet the evaluators with you (to have an opinion and impression).  Will he hear the results when you do.  
 

I think it makes a difference.  

If the dh is supporting this, then don't cave and do evals that won't show ALL the extent of the problems. The ONLY thing that place is doing is reading testing to diagnose dyslexia and a visual processing screening to prove the funky reading isn't due to vision problems. They aren't doing anything else. If you know/suspect more is going on and you use your ONE CHANCE to eval going to a place that can't actually do evals, that will be sad.

If you only get one set of evals, you want them to be psych evals by a neuropsych, someone who is going to spend 4-6 hours and run everything and put everything on the table. This place can't. This place can only tell you what you already know, that he has a reading disability. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

My husband went with me for one and observed it and talked to the woman, and that is the one that he got the most out of

Ok, so my experience with one of our psych evals was just the opposite. The (I have no nice words) neuropsych spent the entire time saying parents shouldn't teach their kids, I wasn't qualified, that ds "only" had ADHD and dyslexia, blah blah. That created YEARS of severe problems in our house because dh had been told by a "professional" that I was the problem, blah blah. 

Now ds is diagnosed with ASD2 and we have a much fuller picture of what is going on. But the consequences of incomplete, inaccurate evals when you have a reluctant spouse are SEVERE. You will lose support and he may say fine, I gave you evals, why are you wanting more?? So don't cave on this. If more is going on than dyslexia, then this place is NOT QUALIFIED to diagnose. They aren't even CLAIMING to. They only evals they're running are for that narrow sliver. No psych screenings, no ADHD, no ASD, not even language testing for pete's sake. Not even narrative language testing. Who does reading testing and talks about reading comprehension without looking at narrative language???

The TILLS could do everything they're running in one test, boom, and it cranks out narrative language scores. But that would blow their ability to bill for more hours and look all swank. 

Also, psychs really don't appreciate it when you disconnect the IQ and achievement testings that are typically paired together. So to do the WIAT without the WISC will make the psych you later use cranky. They'll work it out, but it's just not nice. They want those tests paired.

So yeah, when you factor in the antagonistic, nonsupportive dh, these incomplete evals could create more problems than they solve. What happens if these people get asked by your dh about ADHD, ASD, etc. and they "give their opinion"?? Then where are you? That would be a total mess. And that's the kind of thing lower tier people are quick to do sometimes. Don't walk into a trap like that.

[PeterPan]

Btw, I've done all kinds of evals with my ds, going to all kinds of practitioners. I agree with the others that always, always always the most powerful voice in the room, the most powerful sheet of paper will be the psych. Reading center diagnosis is just some evidence to try to fight for an IEP or show you've done the equivalent of RTI to fight for an IEP. There's a reason they exist and at that pricepoint and why there's a market. I know parents with kids in the ps who've done them. Sometimes the ps is holding the kid in perpetual RTI and the parent doesn't really *want* an IEP but they want to know. So those parents will pay for these reading center/tutor evals, get the info they want, but get it privately in a way that is not on the student's record. To some people, that's really, really important. And when the tutoring center can do that for say way less than a psych eval, it fits a market niche.

But when you're putting more on the table, you're talking something totally different. But I get it takes time to sort out. And if you blow up this option, where does that leave you with $$ for testing. I get it. That's why I was saying consider how you could fight through the ps to get it. 

Also, Dyslexic Advantage just sent around an email about some places doing online psych evals. Full psych evals. You might see if psychs are dropping prices to keep business flowing. Here's the link for their newsletter and it had a couple links https://view.joomag.com/newsletter-may-2020/0931934001584968301?short

[caedmyn]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

So yeah, when you factor in the antagonistic, nonsupportive dh, these incomplete evals could create more problems than they solve. What happens if these people get asked by your dh about ADHD, ASD, etc. and they "give their opinion"?? Then where are you? That would be a total mess. And that's the kind of thing lower tier people are quick to do sometimes. Don't walk into a trap like that.

DH would never ask about that stuff because it has never crossed his mind that those could be issues.

[caedmyn]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

But when you're putting more on the table, you're talking something totally different. But I get it takes time to sort out. And if you blow up this option, where does that leave you with $$ for testing. I get it. That's why I was saying consider how you could fight through the ps to get it. 

Also, Dyslexic Advantage just sent around an email about some places doing online psych evals. Full psych evals. You might see if psychs are dropping prices to keep business flowing. Here's the link for their newsletter and it had a couple links https://view.joomag.com/newsletter-may-2020/0931934001584968301?short

From what I've heard it's basically impossible to get the public schools here to do testing if your kid doesn't go to the school (actually it seems to be extremely difficult to get evals even if your kid goes to the schools).  Maybe it could be forced with a lawyer, but by the time I spent the money for a lawyer it'd probably be close to the price of psych evals.

Maybe I'll just wait til it gets to the point where I need more information to keep going with him and then push for evals.  I don't need them now.  He's already doing Barton with a tutor and I already make accomodations for him and he's doing fine.  I think that at some point it'll be really helpful to know exactly what his issues are, but that's not right now.

[PeterPan]

That DA newsletter I linked had another online eval you could do (not sure the price) that would then qualify you for some audiobook services. So if that screening is low price or free, it might net you some good things.

[Lecka]

I think with you already having him in Barton tutoring, you would not get much helpful information.  
 

One thing could be that you could then do the same tests again a year or two later and go “wow look at the progress.”  
 

But you will also probably be able to see how he’s doing without doing that.

Just saying that bc I definitely talk to people who find that really worthwhile.  Like — really, really worthwhile.

It would not be my thing with reading because to me it’s like — yeah, I know, I can tell.  I know what he can and can’t do, I know his progress.  I don’t need a test to tell me that.  When it’s reading and it’s like — if you know he has gotten through this or that level, you hear him read out loud, etc.  It’s probably not a mystery.  
 

Though to be fair my kids seem to be very linear as far as reading and I know there are kids who are not as linear and I can see that making a big difference.  
 

With my kids it is more like — what words are you sounding out correctly?  How fluent are you?

Do I need to have them take a test with a “word attack” score to tell me that?  Do I need a fluency score?
 

I don’t really.  
 

But I think there are kids who are getting a lot of words from having good comprehension and it makes it hard to tell and makes the testing more useful.  
 

If he has gotten through the first two (iirc) levels of Barton his CTOPP score may be higher than it would have been before, anyway.  It is (iirc) a test that can show progress.  But my sons also do score lower on phonemic awareness even after remediation.  For my older son that got him a note in his psych testing, but no diagnosis.  He got a note saying he has had reading remediation that appeared to be successful (or something like that).