Jump to content

Menu

Too many ADHD kids in a room!


Kanin
 Share

Recommended Posts

Without going into details, I just need to say: WOW!  I had no idea that 10/11 was such an emotional year for boys. My 10/11 yo students (just the boys!) are having ALL the emotions this year. I read something similar in a Chat thread, and yup. I get it now!

In one of my small groups, I have three 10 year old boys, and boy oh boy. It is a whirlwind. They all have fairly severe ADHD, LDs in math, potential ASD or language processing difficulties, and it's so difficult to get anything done! They notice everything the others are doing (wrong), point it out, snipe at each other, get hurt feelings, and so on. We have good days and bad days. 

This is math. They NEED to learn. They are smart kids, and can learn. We can't spend an hour a day on a therapy session.

I need a better structure. I have three kids, and I've been doing some things all together, and some things in groups of 2 or 1, with the off kids doing independent work or playing a game together. I think we can accomplish a lot in an hour with a more effective structure... but what? I have one big table, a smaller table to the side, some beanbags, and even a space behind a divider, if they could work independently without any input from me. Which they could, if they would stop shouting out to their friends from behind the divider.

Advice welcome!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried any positive reinforcement system for them for staying on task?  

Do they do any self-monitoring to stay on task (like -- do they have something like this as part of their IEP)?

Are they honestly expected to be able to sit behind a divider and do independent work, without someone sitting by them to re-direct them to stay on task?  Because -- if that's the case, maybe keep them all by you.  

If they are capable of it, it's probably worth the time to do some kind of positive reinforcement or self-monitoring for them to stay on task.  Aka -- set little goals and then give some kind of positive reinforcement.  Point out progress they make in staying on task.  Those kinds of things.  

I would see if there is something another teacher does that works, because there might be.  

You also might try starting your class with a movement activity?  

Good luck 🙂

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

Have you tried any positive reinforcement system for them for staying on task?  

 

Not yet, but I will! I can use basketball time in the gym as a reward.

 

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

Do they do any self-monitoring to stay on task (like -- do they have something like this as part of their IEP)?

 

Also, not yet. Need to work on that. 

 

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

Are they honestly expected to be able to sit behind a divider and do independent work, without someone sitting by them to re-direct them to stay on task?  Because -- if that's the case, maybe keep them all by you.  

 

Not really, but it would be helpful to me if they could, because then I could work with 1 for 15 minutes, and then with 2 for 15 minutes, since they have some different needs in math.

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

If they are capable of it, it's probably worth the time to do some kind of positive reinforcement or self-monitoring for them to stay on task.  Aka -- set little goals and then give some kind of positive reinforcement.  Point out progress they make in staying on task.  Those kinds of things.  

 

Definitely! I can also ask our behaviorist to help with devising a system. 

 

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

You also might try starting your class with a movement activity?  

 

I would love that. I usually have a walk or gym time for 10 minutes in the middle, because 60 minutes without a break is really too long. The trouble is, they often come in out of sorts from specials like art or French, and it takes a while to calm down. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Competition. Males have a strong drive to compete, so you want to nurture self-regulation (vs. teacher-regulation) through motivation. Don't do for them what they can do for themselves. Think about how far you'd have to break it down to get them able to do it for themselves and build from there, with them owning their responsibility in the process. 

Edited by PeterPan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think 15 minutes behind a divider would be a fantastically long time to stay on task.  Unless they can stay on task that long lol.  

“Proximity” is a prompt and basically means — they will have an easier time staying on task the closer they are to a teacher.  Probably, lol.  

What they can do next to you won’t be the same as what they can do behind a divider.  

If you hear it’s realistic it would be a wonderful thing to work on doing independent work and staying on task.  But if it’s not realistic then it’s just not realistic.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/20/2019 at 7:59 PM, PeterPan said:

Competition. Males have a strong drive to compete, so you want to nurture self-regulation (vs. teacher-regulation) through motivation. Don't do for them what they can do for themselves. Think about how far you'd have to break it down to get them able to do it for themselves and build from there, with them owning their responsibility in the process. 

Hmmm. This is interesting. Do you mean compete against each other, or against themselves? My biggest problem is when all three are sitting together, it's a lot of arguing... that or a whole lot of silliness. But mostly arguing. They think it's funny/a good idea to point out something someone's doing wrong, but they absolutely cannot take it when someone else does it to them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/20/2019 at 8:12 PM, Lecka said:

“Proximity” is a prompt and basically means — they will have an easier time staying on task the closer they are to a teacher.  Probably, lol.  

 

Usually I'd agree with you, and it's true for one or two kids at a time... but with three, they are more motivated by bugging each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/20/2019 at 8:12 PM, Lecka said:

If you hear it’s realistic it would be a wonderful thing to work on doing independent work and staying on task.  But if it’s not realistic then it’s just not realistic.  

 

I'll try the positive reinforcement first, and then see if they can stay on task with that. It's gonna have to be more reinforcement than praise! I hate buying trinkets for students, though. It'll have to be something else. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Mainer said:

I hate buying trinkets for students, though. It'll have to be something else. 

On that, go back to your basics of what motivates them. People assume stuff, but really my ds is socially motivated. ASD2, socially motivated. So for him, something done together, like a game of catch, ping pong, tic tac to, b-ball, nerf, something together is motivating. And it's not like a has to be a BIG thing that then gets lost. We use it as little motivators to keep momentum going. Like if working with *you* is a motivator, then you could have a high value thing they do with you as rotation that they get to but the rotation pauses when they (insert behavior) and continues when they are having expected behavior. 

10 hours ago, Mainer said:

My biggest problem is when all three are sitting together, it's a lot of arguing

Ugh. My ds had a year on gymnastics where it seemed like things went south. There was a bad egg who just prompted a lot of bullying and whatever to feed his own ego. Some of the others were followers, so it totally shifted what had been a sweet dynamic. 

I don't know people well enough to help you there, lol. If someone said bring in the school behaviorist, that seems like a good plan. You know they have challenges and you want someone to observe, look for the antecedents, see what the kids are trying to get with that behavior, and think through a plan and help you make easy data to show it's working. Not having been a teacher, I'd probably separate them, make yourself high value, get them chilled one by one, then bring them back together and use yourself as the motivator that they don't want to lose. 

Are you doing any zones or interoception (body scan) check ins? You could see if there's a side way to get at this, like checkins a few times a day, total body scan with a file folder, so they at least become a little more self-aware and a little more self-monitoring. (where they want to be vs where they are) And then see who's ring-leading and what it is they're needing and why they're getting it this way. 

Is there a dc who, when absent/tossed/removed/on a walk with someone else, is the pivotal one? They're gone and the behavior improves? Then what are they needing and why are they instigating this? 

Are they able to DO the independent work? Are they bored? Is it too hard? 

What would happen if they all had headphones on? Or all had a group dream time? You can laugh, but I do a lot of positive work with my ds when he's negative. Like we'll sit and talk about what our dream day at Disney would be like, what we'd do, which rides, what we'd eat, how it would feel, etc. 

I don't know what you're going to do if they're highly incompatible, lol. My ds dropped gymnastics because of it. That's why I was thinking some together goals, where they push themselves to reach a together goal and they sort of hawk each other (like shape up, we all want this) could work. But I would use YOURSELF as the motivator if at all possible. A game, a nature walk, bird watching binoculars, plant a garden, group community service project, something they get to do WITH YOU. PE in the gym, haha. Extra PE. That would be rowdy. They don't allow nerf guns, but a drawer of nerf guns and every day we're golden we shoot each other the last 5 minutes. Schools probably don't allow that, lol. I don't let ds shoot me either, even with nerf. We do a lot with beanie babies and throwing them in little wars. They don't hurt much, are easy to clean up, and the weight is good. 

You could teach them cards or pool. Leisure skills, yes, but it's also because he's socially motivated and will work to be able to do something WITH someone. Your school would have a cow if you taught them poker, but it's way better than being on the streets, lol. Cribbage. That would go over big and it has some math. You could have heated games of cribbage. Or if you have 4 you can play Up and Down the River. But team Cribbage would do. No arguing, we get to play Cribbage, keep track for however many games. Or maybe start with Uno. My ds will play Uno ENDLESSLY, lol. Solid math and you could run the scores from day to day. When the top score hits (pick a number, 1000), the person with the lowest gets a (pick a small thing like an ice cream in the cafeteria) and then start again so eventually everyone wins. There's no loss, nothing negative, because sorry we just can't play today and keep working toward our goal because there was arguing.

Edited by PeterPan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

On that, go back to your basics of what motivates them. People assume stuff, but really my ds is socially motivated. ASD2, socially motivated. So for him, something done together, like a game of catch, ping pong, tic tac to, b-ball, nerf, something together is motivating. And it's not like a has to be a BIG thing that then gets lost. We use it as little motivators to keep momentum going. Like if working with *you* is a motivator, then you could have a high value thing they do with you as rotation that they get to but the rotation pauses when they (insert behavior) and continues when they are having expected behavior. 

I can do that - they're motivated by little things as well, like playing a game of War. Free time or time with me would also be a motivator. I'll think it over - need to create some kind of system where they can be rewarded, but all three are working when they should be working.

 

46 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ugh. My ds had a year on gymnastics where it seemed like things went south. There was a bad egg who just prompted a lot of bullying and whatever to feed his own ego. Some of the others were followers, so it totally shifted what had been a sweet dynamic.

Yep... you nailed it. They are all sweet kids, but I think a combination of competition, low self-esteem, and lack of social thinking is contributing greatly!

 

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know people well enough to help you there, lol. If someone said bring in the school behaviorist, that seems like a good plan. You know they have challenges and you want someone to observe, look for the antecedents, see what the kids are trying to get with that behavior, and think through a plan and help you make easy data to show it's working. Not having been a teacher, I'd probably separate them, make yourself high value, get them chilled one by one, then bring them back together and use yourself as the motivator that they don't want to lose. 

I'd love to do this, but the problem is, I just need to get some teaching time in there. Not that there's much teaching going on with all the fighting, so... hmm.

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Are you doing any zones or interoception (body scan) check ins? You could see if there's a side way to get at this, like checkins a few times a day, total body scan with a file folder, so they at least become a little more self-aware and a little more self-monitoring. (where they want to be vs where they are) And then see who's ring-leading and what it is they're needing and why they're getting it this way. 

Good question. I'm not. I could get all of their teachers on board, potentially. I only see them for 1 hour of the day, unfortunately; I'm not their full-time teacher.

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Is there a dc who, when absent/tossed/removed/on a walk with someone else, is the pivotal one? They're gone and the behavior improves? Then what are they needing and why are they instigating this? 

Haha.... yes. But there seems to be a main instigator and then two Junior Instigators 😄

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Are they able to DO the independent work? Are they bored? Is it too hard? 

ALL of the above! Sometimes they can work independently, sometimes the work is too hard (independent and with me), sometimes it's too easy and they're bored, ugh! I know everyone says a teacher should be able to teach a small group well, but maybe I'm just not that great at it. Teachers often say to me, "Well, I have to differentiate for 22 during every lesson!" and then look at me, like I don't know how easy I've got it.  

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What would happen if they all had headphones on? Or all had a group dream time? You can laugh, but I do a lot of positive work with my ds when he's negative. Like we'll sit and talk about what our dream day at Disney would be like, what we'd do, which rides, what we'd eat, how it would feel, etc. 

Yeah, we do things like that when stuff is going south... when everyone is just too emotional to focus, we just talk.

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know what you're going to do if they're highly incompatible, lol. My ds dropped gymnastics because of it. That's why I was thinking some together goals, where they push themselves to reach a together goal and they sort of hawk each other (like shape up, we all want this) could work. But I would use YOURSELF as the motivator if at all possible. A game, a nature walk, bird watching binoculars, plant a garden, group community service project, something they get to do WITH YOU. PE in the gym, haha. Extra PE. That would be rowdy.

Oh yeah, I'm all for extra gym! Just not before my class. Too sweaty!! 😄 

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

They don't allow nerf guns, but a drawer of nerf guns and every day we're golden we shoot each other the last 5 minutes.

I wish! Maybe dodgeballs instead 😄

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You could teach them cards or pool. Leisure skills, yes, but it's also because he's socially motivated and will work to be able to do something WITH someone. Your school would have a cow if you taught them poker, but it's way better than being on the streets, lol.

I'm thinking Blackjack! It's in Ronit Bird's book, so...

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

When the top score hits (pick a number, 1000), the person with the lowest gets a (pick a small thing like an ice cream in the cafeteria) and then start again so eventually everyone wins. There's no loss, nothing negative, because sorry we just can't play today and keep working toward our goal because there was arguing.

That's a fantastic idea. Reward for good behavior = game time (fun), high enough points means whole class gets reward (motivated to work together). I love it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I only see them for 1 hour of the day,

Oh, oh, I forgot!!! That is so problematic. You were excited to have the hour but now the students are trying to waste it in behaviors? Oh dear. 

The evidence on group intervention of higher tier kids is poor. I was reading about narrative language intervention, and group was hard to customize. So are these all kids who need tier 3, custom, high intensity intervention?

What if you said I need 30, 30, 30 and then bring them together slowly with overlap? What if you did A 30, brng in B for 15 of overlap, return A, and so on? 

With my ds, I think his nonverbals are too weak to follow in a multi-person dynamic and interact appropriately. It's too much to monitor. He had some therapists try to do a co-treat (2 students, 2 therapists), and it literally FELL APART. He was so, so stressed, couldn't accomplish anything. And I'm like you know, I think he needed to build those skills from 1:1 to 1:2 or whatever slowly. Or even 2:1, like 2 workers with 1 kid. For him, I think even that would BLOW HIS MIND and his social thinking. Like how do you know who to listen to, who to look at, who is in charge... 

And you would think being in school those kids have all that, but who knows. I'm just thinking divide and conquer. Can you get an aide for that hour just to get it up and running? Or whittle it down and work up?

Yeah, 1:3 is really a different tier of intervention from 1:1. So the school wants to save money, but maybe they need 1:1. If they did what you wanted, would it actually be their proper intervention? Or should these kids really be getting 1:1 and the school is cheaping out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I'm thinking Blackjack! It's in Ronit Bird's book, so...

So this is BRILLIANT!! If you're getting math intervention and to them it's a reward, then you're the bomb!! Hahahahah!!!!

18 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Yeah, we do things like that when stuff is going south... when everyone is just too emotional to focus, we just talk.

So you do it PRE-EMPTIVELY. Zones Checkins, mindfulness, bodyscans, positive thinking, these are pre-emptive, things you do BEFORE. 

Are you on Autism Discussion Page on FB? FB is a terrible slurper of time, but his page is sometimes very on point. He had a post about doing multi-sensory, multi-faceted reinforcement. So not just words but tactile and nonverbal and responsive. So a high 5 is ALL that in one. And you can think about all the senses for reinforcement. Nonverbals, like glances, cute eyebrow motions, that kind of thing, can be reinforcers. My ds is more connected, more responsive when we work on nonverbals. If I need to get my ds to shape up fast, my super tools are 

-drop verbal and go to nonverbal (Simon Says, just stop talking and use nonverbals, go big on the nonverbals, play charades, etc.)

-things that use joint attention, like read alternating cells in Dog Man

And if I want the NEXT day to go better, I do positive mindfulness with talking about happy things, visualizing happy things, doing body scans, etc.

If you have two copies of Dog Man, could you divide into pairs but still take turns with cells? You'd have shared and group and reading and... all at once. Dog Man is crazy. 

Yes, see we're so helpful. We're telling you to gamble with the kids and read comics, bhwhahahahah! But it works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you get the main room teacher to reward them for better participation? Not like trinkets but something cool and motivating? Like they get 10 minutes of (highly desirable time, like computer time, maybe something awesome they're missing by coming to you, canoe time, I don't know), and every instance of arguing they lose a minute. Then you'd just make data for each dc and they'd go back with their post-it slip and number.

Our ps has inflatable canoes for reading and sensory, so that would be canoe time. Is there a reward or motivator or reason why they would want to work with you? I mean, they get pulled out. What are they missing? Where would they rather be? If they work, then they go back and work AGAIN, right? I mean, life sucks when you have a disability. People expect you to work more than everyone else and miss out on fun stuff and be too tired. 

So maybe there's a way to make their lives BETTER by complying? Nintendo time. Something. Kwim? 

Edited by PeterPan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think it might be worth thinking about, does one of these kids really dislike math?  Think he’s bad at math?  Think math is too hard?  That might change how you approach it.  

Definitely.... all of them, to all of the above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Can you get the main room teacher to reward them for better participation? Not like trinkets but something cool and motivating? Like they get 10 minutes of (highly desirable time, like computer time, maybe something awesome they're missing by coming to you, canoe time, I don't know), and every instance of arguing they lose a minute. Then you'd just make data for each dc and they'd go back with their post-it slip and number.

This would be awesome, but the schedule is so jammed that there isn't any free time at all 😞 It's something that really bums me out about elementary this year... suddenly the level of classwork seems so difficult, and the topics so difficult and boring, with no time to just BE. It's go go go, and for kids that need chill time, it's really crappy. Maybe I can figure out a time when they could miss something.

 

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I mean, they get pulled out. What are they missing? Where would they rather be? If they work, then they go back and work AGAIN, right? I mean, life sucks when you have a disability. People expect you to work more than everyone else and miss out on fun stuff and be too tired. 

They miss their regular math class completely. It didn't make sense for them to go to 30 minutes with me, and then 30 minutes in regular ed... it would be so confusing. Lucky for them, they have lunch right after math! 

Life does suck when you have a disability. I'm frustrated that reg ed teachers say, "Yes, I know it's hard and frustrating for them, but that's not an excuse to do X (backtalk, stomp around, throw a pencil on floor, etc)." And I'm like... well... they're just little humans, and they're facing HUGE academic and behavioral expectations. It's nuts! Can we please go back to 1995??? I spent most of my elementary time building dioramas, free reading, and writing stories. I'm sad that these kids don't have time to just BE.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

They miss their regular math class completely. It didn't make sense for them to go to 30 minutes with me, and then 30 minutes in regular ed... it would be so confusing. Lucky for them, they have lunch right after math! 

So can the group motivator/reward involve lunch? Preferred location, you bring cookies, earning moneys for ice creams? Do they even sell ice creams anymore? In my day we were POOR and a quarter was a BIG DEAL, haha. I was just reading about a school where teachers eat with kids to build relationships. It really challenged me because I hit lunch time with my ds and I'm like ZOOM LET ME OUTTA HERE, lol. 

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I'm sad that these kids don't have time to just BE.

Oh my. And then no one really knows what's on their minds and why they're struggling, what the behind the scenes story is.

Is there evidence about doing a get it off your chest opener? I see teacher's mentioning these on FB groups. You could bring in some of your SEL and narrative language goals, haha. "I feel angry because my mom's boyfriend hit me this morning" or whatever.

We tried an art therapist (whom we couldn't continue with because the state isn't funding it this year, grrr) who had ds working with modeling clay. Good heavy work input, good way to talk about emotions, building what you're feeling. They could do that as independent work while you work with another or with their hands while you do group phonemic awareness work.

I've been trying to have a rotation of heavy work for my ds to do with his hands while at the table with me. I'm always wanting to make a weighted lap pad. You could talk with the OT about some tools like that. 

Edited by PeterPan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

This would be awesome, but the schedule is so jammed that there isn't any free time at all 😞 It's something that really bums me out about elementary this year... suddenly the level of classwork seems so difficult, and the topics so difficult and boring, with no time to just BE. It's go go go, and for kids that need chill time, it's really crappy. Maybe I can figure out a time when they could miss something.

 

They miss their regular math class completely. It didn't make sense for them to go to 30 minutes with me, and then 30 minutes in regular ed... it would be so confusing. Lucky for them, they have lunch right after math! 

Life does suck when you have a disability. I'm frustrated that reg ed teachers say, "Yes, I know it's hard and frustrating for them, but that's not an excuse to do X (backtalk, stomp around, throw a pencil on floor, etc)." And I'm like... well... they're just little humans, and they're facing HUGE academic and behavioral expectations. It's nuts! Can we please go back to 1995??? I spent most of my elementary time building dioramas, free reading, and writing stories. I'm sad that these kids don't have time to just BE.

 

Do you have a big chalkboard where they could at least be up and moving as they work?  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

they have energy and sharp observation skills and can connect deeply with nature if given a chance

My ds is surprisingly good at word problems in spite of his dyscalculia. They capture that idea of something he can visualize, something real. 

https://www.evan-moor.com/p/20048/evan-moor-daily-word-problems-grade-3  The ones we're using are Evan Moor, not sure what grade. This is our 2nd or 3rd year with them successfully.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been trying flex seating with my ds, but it's a little spotty. He's not leaving the room, so I guess it's ok? 

Oh I thought I had fresh picks on Flickr and I don't! Well I should fix that, lol. Anyways, I have a wobble stool, some little folding floor seats, a rug, and this funky vintage chair that doesn't recline but is just comfy. And on the seats with backs I have stretchy bands around the legs. So as long as he's in the room, I don't care where he's working. Lots of choice. And yeah, we have whiteboards on every wall and smaller whiteboards to work individually.

I try to think how I can use our space to communicate the tasks and create structure. Like that chair is kind of tucked into a nook of bookshelves turned perpendicular to the wall, etc., so that it also serves as a sensory retreat. If he's overwhelmed, he can just go sit in there and chill. So like if Mainer had 4 work stations, each cool with its own type of seating and tasks with visual schedules, then she could rotate them through the stations.

Yeah, I keep hearing the ps have behaviorists and OTs to consult and whatnot, so maybe ask them for help? This is not exactly an easy to thing you're trying to do, so you can probably use all the eyes on it you can get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you have a bin of legos? Are there other tasks they need to do that they could do while working with legos? Even if it was in the weekly rotation. They're huge with my ds right now. Nuts, some kind of lego lunch reward could be what they work toward, hahaha... You'd bring legos and sandwiches and they'd play legos while eating lunch. That would be so, so killer. My ds would be all over that, lol.

Edited by PeterPan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Do you have a bin of legos? Are there other tasks they need to do that they could do while working with legos? Even if it was in the weekly rotation. They're huge with my ds right now. Nuts, some kind of lego lunch reward could be what they work toward, hahaha... You'd bring legos and sandwiches and they'd play legos while eating lunch. That would be so, so killer. My ds would be all over that, lol.

Nope, no Legos. Today went better... unveiled the behavior plan, with immediate and long term rewards, as well as a potential consequence, and we actually got some stuff done! Fingers crossed tomorrow isn't the exact opposite 😎

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Yes, I do 🙂

 

That might help.  Big writing. Big movement.  

Maybe Also to tell them that in other countries students help each other to get right answer and clap for each other when they try, rather than the criticism and teasing and whatever all... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...