Using Well-Trained Mind in the Classroom

[KathiB]

Hello All,

I'm a public school teacher - 7th grade- and considering using the Writing with Ease and Writing with Skill programs in my classroom.  I have 20 students with reading/writing skills ranging from 1st to 8th grade.  My language arts period is 75 minutes long.  I will have at least 5 ability groups that will need different levels of instruction.  I do not have a classroom aide.  First question- is it even possible to use these programs under these conditions?  If so, which is the most effective approach- focus on the Writing Program or the Grammar Program?

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

The difficulty will be in finding ways to meet with each group adequately and what to do with the other groups while you are actively working with a group.  

For Writing with Ease:  Copywork can be done individually.  Dictation can be done in small groups.  Narration would have to be done in a small group setting and I would find it difficult to write each student's narration while the others waited. 

For Writing with Skill:  It would be a bit easier to coordinate because the summaries are written, not narrated so could be done individually at their seats.  But then to be effective you would have to either have all summary narrations handed in to be graded or have them go around sharing them verbally, I would think. 

[PeterPan]

18 hours ago, KathiB said:

I will have at least 5 ability groups that will need different levels of instruction. 

It might be helpful if you learn more about narrative language development first, since that seems like what you're trying to recreate using WWE/WWS. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Here's a link to get you started. It's based on sound research and her stages of narrative development are what you'll find in SLP textbooks. She has charts that show you how narrative development translates directly into expository writing. If you watch her videos on youtube, you can hack together enough to do it with just a set of her narrative/expository magnets. The full sets are great, but it's really a concept. 

[KathiB]

Thank you Jean and PeterPan for the input.  I will follow the link.

[serendipitous journey]

KathiB, I am wishing you luck with this project: thank you for the work you do teaching children! 

I am linking SWB's audio lectures A Plan for Teaching Writing: Focus on the Elementary Grades and A Plan for Teaching Writing: Focus on the Middle Grades.  These are recordings of workshops in which SWB addresses classroom teachers as well as homeschool parents and there are some good nuggets in there for the classroom -- though the range of abilities in your class does pose a particular challenge, it seems to me. 

Regarding narration, for example: she would have you elicit a single narration from the group being taught and write it correctly on a board in front of them.  It would also be possible to use, for example, one source document and elicit several levels of output if you wish: you could have some students simply narrating from the source/model and others writing narrations, and you could dictate a shorter section to some children and a longer to others -- I don't know if that would be more or less work for you in the end.  She also mentions places where a willing parent could work with the child at home.  At any rate: do try the lectures, I think you'll benefit from them no matter how you end up teaching your classes. 

It is hard to prioritize the writing versus the grammar, since eventually a lack of grammar will hinder their writing.  If possible, and if you need to triage, perhaps alternate weeks: make sure you do writing first one week, then grammar first the next: though you may want a more-consistent schedule for your classes.

Edited July 31, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[KathiB]

Thank you SJ- I’ll take all the luck I can get. 😂.  I’m heading to the links pronto. Your response and tips are much appreciated.  

[serendipitous journey]

KathiB -- one last thought -- well, two: 🙂 

1.  I don't know if you are looking at the 4 levels of Writing With Ease or the all-in-one book, but wanted to link the latter just in case. 

2.  I forgot one other very helpful workshop for language arts: What is Literary Analysis: When, Why and How, Should I Teach It?  I like this approach much more than the one used in Writing With Skill literary analysis section, I must say, and it is a great workshop regardless. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[PeterPan]

For the literary analysis I think in school they'd be using the Signposts from Notice and Note.

Remember, Common Core writing development is very similar to a classical progression. The ps and the emphasis on narrative language is finally making a difference for intervention. Teaching narrative language and showing the explicit connection between narrative language and expository writing is becoming the NORM. So with a spread of skills and need for intervention, you're going to want materials that are more explicit than WWS, more scaffolded. 

No 7th grader should be put in WWE because of his writing disability. It's ONLY doing intervention on working memory at that point, which is only 1 of the 4 components in the Simple View of Writing. implications of the Simple View of Writing - MOspacehttps://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/handle/10355/56828 Going back that far is your least effect, most embarrassing option. You could run the students through SKILL (by the Gillams, out of Utah State) in a matter of weeks, make the direct transference to expository using the charts on SGM/MW, and have them ALL speaking the same language for their analysis. Way better intervention than cramming a range of people through something that wasn't developed for intervention.

Here's the link for SKILL. https://usu-works.mybigcommerce.com/order-the-updated-skill-manual-3rd-edition-with-new-online-digital-materials/

Edited August 1, 2019 by PeterPan

[serendipitous journey]

I agree with PeterPan that it would be better for the OP if WWE/WWS were designed for intervention/remediation, and that is clear that is not their essential design -- though my understanding of the workshops is that SWB believes moving a student through the WWE/WWS skills progression at her own pace (ie, often quite quickly for a 7th grader) and with necessary accommodation is the appropriate remediation. 

I disagree that WWE is working-memory-only for anyone.  Even the dictation goes beyond "working memory" by the end of WWE1, unless the student is still requiring prompting all the way through his sentences; and of course reading a selection and narrating a short, grammatical summary of it involves episodic memory + a host of other skills.  Writing the narration down following conventions of standard written English is another set of skills. 

I don't have experience teaching in classrooms, just experience teaching my own two boys and doing very informal remedial work with a few other children.  So perhaps that can add necessary grains of salt to my opinions.  😉 

Edited August 2, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[PeterPan]

34 minutes ago, serendipitous journey said:

Even the dictation goes beyond "working memory" by the end of WWE1, unless the student is still requiring prompting all the way through his sentences; and of course reading a selection and narrating a short, grammatical summary of it involves episodic memory + a host of other skills.  Writing the narration down following conventions of standard written English is another set of skills. 

None of which is age-appropriate for a 7th grader. If a 7th grader can't retell a WWS passage, then he would fail a narrative language assessment given by the school SLP and should have an IEP. My ds has had this testing, my ds failed, my ds has narrative language goals in his IEP. This is a NORMAL THING now. We do not have to act like the ps have no clue on how to do narrative language intervention. The SLPs are doing it, and the SLP would probably be MORE than happy to talk with op and give her tips on how to approach it with her class. Absolutely you can bring these intervention materials (SKILL, Story Grammar Marker, etc.) to the masses. There are TPT files that are extremely inexpensive. That's what the SLP in our ps uses. Not nearly as thorough as proper materials and doesn't help them see how narrative translates into expository writing.

Intervention is not just doing something slower. It's about much more explicit instruction. WWS was actually too much for my dd for many years. I think we did WWS1 in 8th and WWS2 in 9th, iirc. She has exceptional ACT scores and got her university's top scholarship and good offers from other schools too. She just has ADHD and couldn't wrangle with the mess of the text. 

There are people here on the boards using WWS with students with disabilities via a tutor, but they're pairing it with SGM to get more explicit intervention. And the thing is, the SGM people have SO much great info on their website for free, you really don't have to spend a lot to get it. You just need to wrap your brain around it and see the development, and see how it leads directly into improved expository writing.

I assume op will also need more varied source texts. She can use WWS for ideas for lessons, but she may need to have levels of texts to work with the various vocabulary and reading levels of her students.

[KathiB]

20 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

You probably already know about the WWE evaluation guides to assess where your students are?  http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/pdfs/samples/wwe/wweevaluations.pdf  This might give you some help in placement.  Also, you mentioned that you were teaching writing and grammar:  is it grammar that you build in yourself within the WWE or WWS curriculum, or are you using the WTM grammar programs FLL / GftWTM alongside the writing programs?  

 Thank you Patty Joanna for the evaluation guides.  I printed the corresponding pages from The Complete Writer, but it's nice to have a digital collection in one spot.  For grammar, I suppose my question was does the WWE/WWS curriculum contain enough built in grammar to essentially replace the stand alone programs (FLL, etc.)?  

[KathiB]

16 hours ago, PeterPan said:

No 7th grader should be put in WWE because of his writing disability. It's ONLY doing intervention on working memory at that point, which is only 1 of the 4 components in the Simple View of Writing. implications of the Simple View of Writing - MOspacehttps://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/handle/10355/56828 Going back that far is your least effect, most embarrassing option.

PeterPan, thank you for the valuable input.  One other point about my class- all the students are ELLs (save one).  Those at the lower WWE levels also happen to be at the very beginning stages of acquiring English.  Additionally, they are not literate in their native language.  These extra wrinkles are what attracted me to WWE's design.  The oral language component seemed perfect, though I was thinking that I'd have to replace the stories with something at a lower reading/vocabulary level.  

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, KathiB said:

One other point about my class- all the students are ELLs (save one). 

Seems like the picture book a day movement (find on FB) would be helpful to you. Have you talked with the IEP team members who service ELL kids? You definitely have an SLP but some schools also have someone doing that intervention. 

 

[KathiB]

The ELLs are not serviced by the IEP team/SLP at our school unless they also present with learning/speech disabilities.  The only extra help they receive is a 30 minute pull-out 4xs a week by the ELD teacher.  Otherwise it's complete immersion here.  

[serendipitous journey]

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

None of which is age-appropriate for a 7th grader. .

Of course I agree that an elementary writing program is not age-appropriate for a 7th grader: the skills WWE teaches are certainly not sufficient for strong middle-grade writing.  The point of disagreement is that the WWE progression, used to remediate a 7th grader, would ONLY use "working memory", which is not true.

I also agree with you that the school system has enormous expertise in teaching, and in remediating.  On the other hand, systems do not always work ideally, which I know from personal experience and from friends.  I believe that helping the individuals working within the system do what they see needs doing flexibly and creatively, and providing as much support as possible is key to success: and from the time & energy & expertise you're sharing here, it is clear you do too.  

KathiB & PeterPan -- I know these discussions can seem fractious!  But they can also provide honest reflection and generate a diversity of ideas/resources.  I'm doing my annual-ish review of SWB workshops, and she just dropped this quote from historian John Arnold in one of them (italics mine):

“History is above all else an argument. It is an argument between different historians; and, perhaps, an argument between the past and the present, an argument between what actually happened, and what is going to happen next. Arguments are important; they create the possibility of changing things.”

The power of open discussion & debate is profound.

1 hour ago, KathiB said:

PeterPan, thank you for the valuable input.  One other point about my class- all the students are ELLs (save one).  Those at the lower WWE levels also happen to be at the very beginning stages of acquiring English.  Additionally, they are not literate in their native language.  These extra wrinkles are what attracted me to WWE's design.  The oral language component seemed perfect, though I was thinking that I'd have to replace the stories with something at a lower reading/vocabulary level.  

Yes yes yes to the bolded. 

Blessings to all this morning.  It is wonderful to be engaged in the work of building a better world together 🙂 

Edited August 2, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[KathiB]

May I say that I'm truly blown away and grateful for all the energy and help I've received thus far.  I look forward to sharing all the links and ideas with my colleagues- they too are scrambling to meet the needs of a quickly changing ps population. 

[serendipitous journey]

2 hours ago, KathiB said:

 Thank you Patty Joanna for the evaluation guides.  I printed the corresponding pages from The Complete Writer, but it's nice to have a digital collection in one spot.  For grammar, I suppose my question was does the WWE/WWS curriculum contain enough built in grammar to essentially replace the stand alone programs (FLL, etc.)?  

Most here would say no, it doesn't:  WWE & FLL support each other quite well, but the grammar explicitly taught in WWE assumes the familiarity being built up in some other grammar program.  And I think that the middle-grade Grammar for the Well Trained Mind program is probably not going to be a good fit for your ELL, as it is challenging to children who are native speakers from print-rich backgrounds.   I am not sure what the best grammar would be in your situation though: all my experiences in teaching grammar are home-based. 

On the other hand, it may be the case that the programs have sufficient grammar for your purposes and your class, and that your children would not be well-served by adding to it given other considerations.  I'll hope that someone with more ELL experience weighs in! 

Edited August 2, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[KathiB]

Thank you Patty Joanna, especially for the grammar tip.  I appreciate your honesty about the feasibility of this project and have already been thinking about ways to reduce the number of groups.  Typically, my classes are not this challenging, which is why I'm scrambling a bit.  Also, since we're a small school, pre-K to 8, with one teacher per grade level- we're mostly self-contained.  This means I can use other curricular areas (math and history) to build in more reading/writing/grammar development.