New to Classical Education and need help

[CrystalN]

I suppose I should introduce myself first. My name is Crystal and I have 3 kids, 5th, 8th and 10th grade in the fall. We have been homeschooling 9 years. Mostly Charlotte Mason style. Mostly using My Fathers World curriculum, modified to suit us. My ds is going into 10th grade and sadly CM writing methods have failed him. Probably more true to say MY implementation of CM writing methods has failed him. He is a very reluctant writer and good literature and narrations has NOT produced high school level writing. Those who told me “be patient it will come” were quite wrong. So now what? I have been doing some research and want to switch to a more classical homeschool. I think having used CM methods, history, science, art, music etc will be an easy transition. I think the biggest change will be language arts. We have even been doing Latin for a few years so really I think we are very close. My big dilemma is where to go with mostly my 10th grader but also the younger ones. My 10th grader will be using MFW Ancients next year. The program has some writing instruction, mostly how to structure an argumentative essay. It contains grammar, but mainly review by helping you correct your essays. I think it would be a fine guide for a student who had more writing experience. I am wondering if I should let him go for it and sink or swim. Or put him in WWS and skip the MFW essays (although the topics assigned are so good, like comparing Greek gods to the true God). Or some combination. And what about grammar. Quick and dirty like Easy Grammar. Or try Grammar for the WTM? Which honestly may kill him. I have neglected writing for so long hoping something would click, now I feel I have failed him. What can I do? 

[HomeAgain]

I would do WWS 1.  It was amazing for my oldest and helped him really learn how to structure his writing and prepare for college.  You can alternate with MFW, and I think I would toward the end of the year because he should be writing across the curriculum.  Grammar, how much do you think he needs?  I'd do a quick overview for the oldest, or have him work with the youngers and correct their grammar work.

[CrystalN]

Thanks. I was kinda thinking the same thing, using WWS and breaking from it now and then for one of the MFW assignments. It looks like MFW assigns an essay a week, so maybe I could do a few of those. My instinct is that essay format can be taught in one lesson whereas the skills taught in WWS will actually make his properly formatted essays worth reading. We actually did about 4 WWS lessons the last month of 9th grade and I was very pleased. My ds was even impressed with his governing metaphor paragraph in week 18. He said “ wow I cant believe that came out of me.” His grammar is pretty weak. I was going to have my 5th and 8th grader working through FLL 4, then Grammar for TWTM. I know FLL is maybe too young for an 8th grader, but our “gentle” CM grammar methods left us a bit lacking. My oldest cannot work with my middle child, they are going through a love/hate thing right now and its miserable to teach them together. So doing family grammar is out. I think I may just let him do Easy Grammar 10. He is also doing First Form Latin so he should get some grammar that way as well. 

Any other ideas on getting the most from a classical education in only 3 years?

 

 

[Lori D.]

Welcome!

Agreeing with HomeAgain about using the Writing With Skill series. 🙂

As far as "bang for the buck" of doing Classical Ed. for 3 years of high school... Well, "Classical" seems to mean different things to different people -- things like:
- Latin: learning Latin
- Logic: learn formal Logic
- Grammar: diagramming sentences
- Rhetoric: persuasive/well-supported writing and speaking; possibly also public speaking, speech & debate
- History: doing three 4-year chronological sweeps of World History at deeper levels each time
- Science: doing three 4-year cycles of Life Science, Earth Science + Astronomy, Chemistry, Physics
- "Great Books": synching up History time periods with the Literature and Philosophy of those times, and also reading primary source writings; plus, reading/discussing/analyzing/writing about the works

Are you thinking along these lines for what "Classical Ed." means for your family? If so, then most of those will pretty easily fall in with "required" high school credits needed for college admission, and as a result, "Classical" education will be more a matter of how you chose to accomplish those credits, or what materials you use to do so. (Examples: Latin can be your foreign language; Rhetoric can be part of the English credit; "Great Books" can be part of your History credit and the Lit. portion of your English credit; etc.)

Quite honestly, I think my priority with a rising 10th grader would be to think through/write out answers to the following questions, to prioritize what you want to make sure you get done in this fast-shrinking window of opportunity -- and also to note what would be great to do, but you could drop it off the list if you run out of time for it.

1. parent's 3-5 overall goals to accomplish
2. student's strengths, weaknesses, interest/passions, possible career leanings
3.a. academics desired by parent and/or student to accomplish (here's where some "Classical" goals could come in)
3.b. support skills important to accomplish (examples: typing; computer; public speaking; power point presentation; etc.)
4. sports/extracurriculars/hobbies/etc desired by student to be included in their high school schedule
5. life skills still needed to be covered in some way (not necessarily curriculum, can be just during daily living -- but things you want to be : (examples: house/auto maintenance; personal finance; shopping/cooking; laundry; driving skills; mental health; physical healthy/healthy lifestyle; emotional/s*xual relationships; etc.)

The reason I suggest focusing more big picture and overall goals for the next 3 years is that if you are planning on college, you and your student are going to spend a lot of 11th grade doing test prep & testing, researching colleges (and financial aid topics), and possibly doing some dual enrollment or outsourced classes that leave less time for homeschooling. And in the fall of 12th grade there is a ton of time spent by the student in *applying* to colleges, and all of the spring "senior" things to do. And often a student is working part time, or doing dual enrollment, or involved in time-consuming activities in 11th and 12th grades, so it is harder to get in everything you want to do.

All that said, as far as "Classical Ed", it sounds to me like the only thing you are saying is a need to be more rigorously and conscientiously about is Writing. You sound like you're doing a fine job to me! BEST of luck in transitioning to a more formal Classical homeschooling, and in your high school planning! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Lori D.

[HomeAgain]

10 hours ago, CrystalN said:

 His grammar is pretty weak. I was going to have my 5th and 8th grader working through FLL 4, then Grammar for TWTM. I know FLL is maybe too young for an 8th grader, but our “gentle” CM grammar methods left us a bit lacking. My oldest cannot work with my middle child, they are going through a love/hate thing right now and its miserable to teach them together. So doing family grammar is out. I think I may just let him do Easy Grammar 10. He is also doing First Form Latin so he should get some grammar that way as well. 

Any other ideas on getting the most from a classical education in only 3 years?

 

First Form does have grammar within it, and diagramming basic sentences. It will be reinforced often but maybe not quite enough.  I don't know if Easy Grammar teaches diagramming, but if not I would suggest investing in the First Whole Book Of Diagrams, which breaks down grammar in a lovely, easy way.  I didn't buy the accompanying worktext - the book has pages to copy and in some cases we drew our own.  I tend to pair it up for older kids with a difficult sentence from a school book so they can really learn how to read a piece and get the most out of it.

Your jump from CM to fully classical gives me room for thought.  We are using a CM language arts with a classical bent for the youngest: English Lessons Through Literature.  I will have to keep his writing in mind after we exhaust the program.  I think it only has 8 levels right now.

Do you plan on studying formal logic?

[8filltheheart]

Welcome!

I just wanted to 2nd Lori's post to not get caught up in terminology and classifications but instead focus on your specific goals. (Little of today's classical ed movement is actually representative of an actual classical ed but more of a solid Western civ-focused ed removed from the watering down of contemporary practices.) The needs of your student should be primary over any outside definition or classification. Sounds like you have already recognized the weaknesses of relying too much on philosophy over results.

In terms of grammar, I would consider looking into Analytical Grammar for your 10th grader. It is easy to implement and will help lead to mastery in a short period of time.

For writing, I don't know much about WWS, but you have 3 yrs to master essay writing. That is enough time to get there.  You haven't failed him. You have recognized an academic weakness that needs focused instruction. Ignoring that would be failing him. Recognizing it while still having 3 yrs to master those skills--that is succeeding in critically assessing your student's academic outcomes.

Fwiw, I would make write g an academic priority and would not dilute your efforts by trying to alter too much. (I would personally not add in a formal logic course.)

[EmilyGF]

Hi Crystal,

The strength I see in CM education is that she does everything the easiest way first - and then you do MORE when it doesn't work. Just like we don't put all kids in speech therapy or occupational therapy, the CM approach allows kids to try the simplest approach to learning first and then to do something more intense if that doesn't work.

For my oldest (14), I knew from day 1 that he would need a formal writing program. He didn't talk until 4 and he hates writing. His narrations are great, but the structure of Writing With Skill really helped him learn to write well. My second, at 12, has only written with the CM approach and writes better than him. She actually has found a job writing for a website that pays (!) and does it well. 

I think you need to look at your real goals - do you want to completely alter your approach, or do you want to give direct writing instruction to your high schooler? I think most Mason educators I know would recommend for any high schooler who isn't writing well to have direct instruction. Actually, I think most CM curricula start some level of direct instruction in middle school.

Emily

 

[CrystalN]

4 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

First Form does have grammar within it, and diagramming basic sentences. It will be reinforced often but maybe not quite enough.  I don't know if Easy Grammar teaches diagramming, but if not I would suggest investing in the First Whole Book Of Diagrams, which breaks down grammar in a lovely, easy way.  I didn't buy the accompanying worktext - the book has pages to copy and in some cases we drew our own.  I tend to pair it up for older kids with a difficult sentence from a school book so they can really learn how to read a piece and get the most out of it.

Your jump from CM to fully classical gives me room for thought.  We are using a CM language arts with a classical bent for the youngest: English Lessons Through Literature.  I will have to keep his writing in mind after we exhaust the program.  I think it only has 8 levels right now.

Do you plan on studying formal logic?

Thanks HomeAgain. Yes I would like him to study formal logic, but not this year. He will be pretty pegged with difficult books and writing. I do have him in an Intro to Debate class that uses The Fallacy Detective. I dont think he will do competetive speech and debate, but the class teaches how to construct an effective argument, which seems useful in life. I would like to do some formal logic with him his junior and senior year.

[CrystalN]

12 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Welcome!

Agreeing with HomeAgain about using the Writing With Skill series. 🙂

As far as "bang for the buck" of doing Classical Ed. for 3 years of high school... Well, "Classical" seems to mean different things to different people -- things like:
- Latin: learning Latin
- Grammar: diagramming sentences
- Rhetoric: persuasive/well-supported writing and speaking; possibly also public speaking, speech & debate
- History: doing three 4-year chronological sweeps of World History at deeper levels each time
- Science: doing three 4-year cycles of Life Science, Earth Science + Astronomy, Chemistry, Physics
- "Great Books": synching up History time periods with the Literature and Philosophy of those times, and also reading primary source writings; plus, reading/discussing/analyzing/writing about the works

Yes, most of those things are what I am aiming for. Your post made me realize I am already on a solid foundation in more areas than I give myself credit for. We havent been as rigorous as some, but my kids have been doing some latin, a four year history rotation and great books. I suppose writing and grammar are my main weakness. My younger kids are not as resistant to writing, my oldest is just plain allergic. The little ones write stories, use beautiful vocabulary, grammar is a little lacking, but overall they write things that are enjoyable to read. Thank you for your input.

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, CrystalN said:

...I do have him in an Intro to Debate class that uses The Fallacy Detective. I dont think he will do competetive speech and debate, but the class teaches how to construct an effective argument, which seems useful in life. I would like to do some formal logic with him his junior and senior year.

Debate also tends to help support solid essay writing, as the skills of building an argument (stating a claim and then supporting with facts and examples) are used in both rhetoric and writing. 🙂

JMO, but I would only  do 1.0 credit of Formal Logic if DS is highly interested AND if you have the time, as 11th & 12th grades get pretty packed with more advanced studies (higher Maths and Sciences especially), extracurricular activities, and starting the college search process and college application process. (Of course, there is also the option of doing more Logic in "bits and snippets" as you have time over the last 2 years of high school -- perhaps as one of several things you rotate through for 15 min of your morning "together time" or "power hour". You could also include your then-9th grader.

I know it seems very early/young to be thinking past the end of high school, but while you are researching/planning for next year's academics, you might also spend some time looking through the big pinned threads at the top of the High School Board to make sure you don't fall behind in any of the things needed for applying college (assuming the goal is wanting to keep as many future doors open as possible). A frantic scramble in the first month of 12th grade to catch up is no fun at all  😵  😉 

High School Motherlode #1
page 1 = links to past threads on the topics of making a high school plan, high school credits for college prep, time management, etc.
page 2 = links to past threads of info and pros/cons on the tests that you may need to consider in high school: PSAT, SAT/ACT, SAT Subject, AP, CLEP, GED

High School Motherlode #2
page 1 = links to past threads on transcripts, record keeping, credits, grading/GPA
page 5 = links to past threads on making your own courses, extracurriculars, outsourcing, dual enrollment, etc.

[And then for in another year, the College Motherlode at the top of the College Board has 6 pages of links to past threads on the college search process, applying to college, financial aid and scholarships, preparing to send your student to college, NCAA sports, the military, alternatives to college, career exploration, and more.]
 

Also, spending some time this summer allows you time to be looking at any special opportunities in your community -- summer programs, or community activities/organizations during the school year that would support your children's academics and interests in the coming years.

For example, your 10th grader might enjoy participating in your state's YMCA Youth & Government model legislative program, where students spend a semester at the weekly delegation meetings practicing writing bills and doing formal bill debate, and then at the end of the semester, they attend a 3-day Mock Legislative session at the State Capitol and hold a mock legislative session. Great fun and incredibly educational -- public speaking, argumentation, learning about government by putting it into practice, learning to network and lobby, etc. (Just throwing in there that neither of our DSs were the least bit interested in public speaking or going into Law or Politics, but they both so enjoyed this opportunity that, by their choice, they returned for each of the next years of high school.)

BEST of luck as you plan for 10th grade and beyond! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Lori D.