Is Saxon a good fit?

[Nam2001]

I would love for people to weigh in on how you know if Saxon is the right fit for your child? (Or point me to best posts on this)

I'm not great at researching math and grasping which programs are best for which kids because I’m not a math girl myself. 

My daughter is in her first year of Saxon (prealgebra) and I’m trying to decide if I should switch directions for algebra and up. She’s hitting a wall but it’s hard to tell if it’s saxon or just math in general. (Her class is with WTMA) 

Thanks!

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Nam2001

[Nam2001]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

What is she hitting a wall with?

I think just basic solving algebraic equations. She says it’s solving for “x” with lots on each side 😂

[Nam2001]

I thought I’d also add, in case this helps  - she did mostly CLE in elementary which worked decently well, but not great.  Then she went to Rod and Staff 6 & 7. That was wonderful. It really made sense to her and helped her a lot with math. 

[Nam2001]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

Does she understand why the steps work? Can she do a simple equation by guess and check?

Well, I hate that this is my answer, but I’ve been really hands off this year since it’s online. Her teacher has been great. This is really new (the problem) so I haven’t had a decent conversation with her yet or had an opportunity to sit down and work through it with her. We are on vacation but I plan to do that once we are home. 

She’d kept a solid A in the class so far but has started having the deer in the headlights look lately! 

[EKS]

38 minutes ago, Nam2001 said:

Well, I hate that this is my answer, but I’ve been really hands off this year since it’s online. Her teacher has been great. This is really new (the problem) so I haven’t had a decent conversation with her yet or had an opportunity to sit down and work through it with her. We are on vacation but I plan to do that once we are home. 

She’d kept a solid A in the class so far but has started having the deer in the headlights look lately! 

I recommend working with her every day to see what the problem is.  And then I think it will be important to remain involved from here on out.  

Many times we blame a resource (Saxon, in this case) when the real problem is that the student needs an actual human in the room to help her understand.

Edited April 19, 2019 by EKS

[Nam2001]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I recommend working with her every day to see what the problem is.  And then I think it will be important to remain involved from here on out.  

Many times we blame a resource (Saxon, in this case) when the real problem is that the student needs an actual human in the room to help her understand.

I intend to do that, as I mentioned. And she’s had a human helping her - in class and on the side when needed. This issue is only about a week old. Until then, things were fine. I’ve only questioned potentially changing when I started thinking about her math history and how Rod and Staff helped more than any other. I’d like to ensure that she’s using the right type of curriculum for high school. And I can help, but only so much since I’m not a math person. That’s why we are farming this out. 

I suppose when i posted this, I was hoping more for responses on which type of student does well with Saxon, what the strengths and weaknesses of the program are, etc....

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Nam2001 said:

I intend to do that, as I mentioned. And she’s had a human helping her - in class and on the side when needed. This issue is only about a week old. Until then, things were fine. I’ve only questioned potentially changing when I started thinking about her math history and how Rod and Staff helped more than any other. I’d like to ensure that she’s using the right type of curriculum for high school. And I can help, but only so much since I’m not a math person. That’s why we are farming this out. 

I suppose when i posted this, I was hoping more for responses on which type of student does well with Saxon, what the strengths and weaknesses of the program are, etc....

That's great.  I'm sorry I didn't see where you mentioned that.  It's perfectly appropriate to question the resource when you're sure that it's the problem.  Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if it *were* the problem.  Saxon certainly has a downside and neither of my kids did well with it.  Too many problems, not enough work with concepts (as opposed to procedures) and too much detail and not enough big picture.

[Farrar]

Have you tried resources like Hands on Equations or Dragonbox? I feel like doing those before we did a full algebra program really helped my kids visualize and understand basic equations.

I totally agree about how the teacher matters just as much as the program, but I do think if a student persistently isn’t getting it with one on one help, that trying another presentation is a good tact.

[BusyMom5]

Well, i like Saxon, so that may color my view.  DD 1 is in 10th grade and on the last Saxon book.  We also tried Jacobs and Arbor School.  Saxon worked bc it's simple and pretty straight forward.  Note that I taught her daily,  one on one, through the end of the Algebra 2 book.  When there were places she needed more help, we used Khan Academy to reinforce.  

 

DD2 has finished PreAl and ready for Algebra 1.  She's a much different student and needs the extra rrepetition found in Saxon.  That said, sometimes I need to teach past where a lesson is to show how a skill grows.  

 

Both my kids only do about 20 problems. a day.  I have them cut anything older than 20 lessons unless it's a skill they haven't mastered.  

 

A few ideas to help you-teach the math yourself if you can.  Analyze the problems so that you can see where the issues are- is it computation, forgetting details like decimals,  writing answers in a correct form, finishing a problem completely vs stopping after the first few steps, forgetting parts of a multisyep problem, sloppiness, rushing.....  Make up good math notes so that she can refer back to them when she's working.  Teaching her how to make the math notes is a skill she needs to learn to do.  At this age I keep my own math notes book, and my kids have to copy my notes inyo their notebooks, too. 

 

Good luck   

[Nam2001]

8 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Well, i like Saxon, so that may color my view.  DD 1 is in 10th grade and on the last Saxon book.  We also tried Jacobs and Arbor School.  Saxon worked bc it's simple and pretty straight forward.  Note that I taught her daily,  one on one, through the end of the Algebra 2 book.  When there were places she needed more help, we used Khan Academy to reinforce.  

 

DD2 has finished PreAl and ready for Algebra 1.  She's a much different student and needs the extra rrepetition found in Saxon.  That said, sometimes I need to teach past where a lesson is to show how a skill grows.  

 

Both my kids only do about 20 problems. a day.  I have them cut anything older than 20 lessons unless it's a skill they haven't mastered.  

 

A few ideas to help you-teach the math yourself if you can.  Analyze the problems so that you can see where the issues are- is it computation, forgetting details like decimals,  writing answers in a correct form, finishing a problem completely vs stopping after the first few steps, forgetting parts of a multisyep problem, sloppiness, rushing.....  Make up good math notes so that she can refer back to them when she's working.  Teaching her how to make the math notes is a skill she needs to learn to do.  At this age I keep my own math notes book, and my kids have to copy my notes inyo their notebooks, too. 

 

Good luck   

Thanks for your feedback. It really may not be a saxon problems but I’ve heard the way it teaches things isn’t great for all students. She seems to need mastery of a concept, which is why I think R&S worked so well. I will say that I have been nothing but pleased with WTMA. The teacher is great! 

[almondbutterandjelly]

Saxon is spiral.  Mathusee is mastery.  I don't know which other high school maths are mastery because we use Mathusee.  hth

[Nam2001]

35 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

Saxon is spiral.  Mathusee is mastery.  I don't know which other high school maths are mastery because we use Mathusee.  hth

Thanks! 

Here is a review that I have read that made me start questioning Saxon as being a fit for my daughter. I’ve wondered if things are being introduced too quickly . 

“Saxon math employs an incremental approach that introduces a new concept every day (every lesson). Many students grow bored on it, or they can't get it when new concepts come along so quickly.”

[Farrar]

I don't have much experience with the Saxon high school books, but the general Saxon approach is drill, drill, drill. Tons of practice, less emphasis on understanding first, but rather understanding by practice. My observation with the earlier books is that a lot of kids don't need that much practice and get bored. But other kids may have the opposite issue and find it moves too quickly through the ideas and expects them to understand without delving into the why as much as some programs.

[Zoo Keeper]

OP, here's some info from Jann in TX (an online math teacher who also happens to be a board member here), and other posters chimed in as well.

And another thread or two...

I found her analysis of Saxon helpful when one of mine was hitting a wall about 3/4 of the way through Saxon Algebra 1 (which worked very well for him till around lesson 80 or so)  He has to have explicit instruction in how to put pieces together in math.  He does not extrapolate *at all* with math concepts--so he was very frustrated when Saxon Algebra was expecting him to do problems that he had never seen before (but not really); it was putting previously taught concepts together into a different (more involved or complicated) type of problem, so just looking back at lesson # whatever didn't necessarily tell him how to do the problem in front of him.  For him, the longer he went on in Saxon, the worse it was.  We bailed around lesson 100-something  because he just couldn't do that daily dose of defeat anymore. 

Obviously, Saxon works very well for lots of students; my son just wasn't in that group.  (He didn't do well with Jacobs Algebra or Geometry, either.  Which I love. Sigh...)  He just wants to be shown a concept, work some example problems, and then do 20 problems just like the examples.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  And after doing this forever, the concept behind it all begins to make sense.  He has done well with older editions of Holt  and also with MUS. 

Hope some of what I linked can be of a help to you.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Zoo Keeper

[Nam2001]

1 hour ago, Zoo Keeper said:

OP, here's some info from Jann in TX (an online math teacher who also happens to be a board member here), and other posters chimed in as well.

And another thread or two...

I found her analysis of Saxon helpful when one of mine was hitting a wall about 3/4 of the way through Saxon Algebra 1 (which worked very well for him till around lesson 80 or so)  He has to have explicit instruction in how to put pieces together in math.  He does not extrapolate *at all* with math concepts--so he was very frustrated when Saxon Algebra was expecting him to do problems that he had never seen before (but not really); it was putting previously taught concepts together into a different (more involved or complicated) type of problem, so just looking back at lesson # whatever didn't necessarily tell him how to do the problem in front of him.  For him, the longer he went on in Saxon, the worse it was.  We bailed around lesson 120 because he just couldn't daily dose of defeat anymore. 

Obviously, Saxon works very well for lots of students; my son just wasn't in that group.  (He didn't do well with Jacobs Algebra or Geometry, either.  Which I love. Sigh...)  He just wants to be shown a concept, work some example problems, and then do 20 problems just like the examples.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  And after doing this forever, the concept behind it all begins to make sense.  He has done well with older editions of Holt  and also with MUS. 

Hope some of what I linked can be of a help to you.

This is incredibly helpful! You’ve hit the nail on the head I think. And the posts you linked were super helpful also. I’m actually considering Jann’s algebra class. I think it would be a good option. This is our first year to farm out math, but based on the past, I know that dd needs things explained very clearly. She won’t put anything together herself in this realm. 

Thanks for your thoughts!