Scheduling AOPS Pre-Algebra for two "2E" kids

[TheAttachedMama]

Hi Everyone,

I could use some help tweaking my AOPS pre-algebra routine.   Please share any ideas you have for me!

DD(10) and DS(11) both happen to be at almost the exact level in math.   (DS11 is a bit quicker, but they are pretty close.)  Both kids also happen to be a bit "2E" and suffer from executive functioning issues.  They struggle with organization and time management.   

Typically the advice for AOPS has always been, work for X amount of minutes per day.   My children have never done well with this type of schedule. DD10 often tries to get away with doing as little as possible in school, so if I tell her to work for 60 minutes she technically will do it, but do very little.  (She works very slowly and gets little done.)   On the other hand, if I tell her that she has to do X amount of problems (or reach a certain goal) she works with an urgency and gets a lot done well in a short amount of time so she can be finished.    DS11 tends to be hyper-focused in doing well in math.  However, he tends to get overwhelmed if I say he has to work for a "whole hour."   On the other hand, if I tell him he needs to master a subject in Alcumus (or meet a concrete goal), he will happily work for much longer than an hour until he reaches his goal.  

I'm trying to figure out some goals that I can suggest for the kids to meet each day.   My one idea was for them to do the problems one day, the exercises the next, and master the subject on alcumus the third day.  (I would, of course, make "on the fly" changes to this plan if the exercises were taking overly long or they needed more time to master a topic.)   However, that puts us at 3 days for each topic and it would most likely take even more.  (We have discovered that some exercise sets take longer than others.)    That means we will take a long time to finish each book.

Another idea I had was to do the teaching/problems with them.  Then, let alcumus replace the exercises.   (That way they would get as much or as little targeted practice.)   I could then use the "summary" as a sort of internal test to make sure they were getting the material.  

 

[....]

I've taught AOPS Prealgebra 3 times now.  My kids were never able to do that book on their own.  I actually sat down and worked on it with them everyday.  It's definitely not a self-teaching math program, especially at that age when they would be using it.  Also, working through the book with them showed me the unconventional ways they use to solve the problems.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn't been able to solve some of the problems, either.

[TheAttachedMama]

8 minutes ago, Evanthe said:

I've taught AOPS Prealgebra 3 times now.  My kids were never able to do that book on their own.  I actually sat down and worked on it with them everyday.  It's definitely not a self-teaching math program, especially at that age when they would be using it.  Also, working through the book with them showed me the unconventional ways they use to solve the problems.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn't been able to solve some of the problems, either.

I am teaching the material to them.  I am asking about scheduling other things such as alcumus.

[....]

14 minutes ago, TheAttachedMama said:

I am teaching the material to them.  I am asking about scheduling other things such as alcumus.

 

Oh, ok.  Lol.  Do you even have time for alcumus after working on the book, itself?  Because we didn't.  The book took us forever.  My oldest spent two years working on the book.

[umsami]

2 minutes ago, Evanthe said:

 

Oh, ok.  Lol.  Do you even have time for alcumus after working on the book, itself?  Because we didn't.  The book took us forever.  My oldest spent two years working on the book.

Do you think it was worth it? Or do you think your DD would have been better served by say Lial's Pre-Algebra and moving on...

[....]

4 minutes ago, umsami said:

Do you think it was worth it? Or do you think your DD would have been better served by say Lial's Pre-Algebra and moving on...

 

It was!  DD16 is very good at math.  We actually asked her if she wanted to maybe major in math when she went to college, but she wants to go into medicine.

But, yes, taking two years for one book did make us feel like slackers.  I had to work on the book with her, otherwise I wouldn't have understood that they take a completely different approach to solving problems - it's not like the way we learned math in school.  

And Lial's is great, too.  I have Lial's on my bookshelf.  It's a good math, too.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Evanthe

[umsami]

1 minute ago, Evanthe said:

 

It was!  DD16 is very good at math.  We actually asked her if she wanted to maybe major in math when she went to college, but she wants to go into medicine.

But, yes, taking two years for one book did make us feel like slackers.  I had to work on the book with her, otherwise I wouldn't have understood that they take a completely different approach to solving problems - it's not like the way we learned math in school.  

Yes, it's different.  We were watching some of the videos and he was basically showing how he devised the formula.... which I don't remember other math books doing.  They would just tell you the formula for plug & chug.  

[....]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:31 AM, umsami said:

Yes, it's different.  We were watching some of the videos and he was basically showing how he devised the formula.... which I don't remember other math books doing.  They would just tell you the formula for plug & chug.  

 

Yeah, for a lot of the problems in the first half of the book, it felt like we were always looking for a trick to get the answer down to "1" or "0".  And I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing?  It was good, because my kids understand patterns really well and also the rules behind math.  It's just very conceptual math.  I was always calling it Puzzle Math.  lol  

[Cake and Pi]

If your kids don't need much repetition, you could totally replace the book Exercises with Alcumus.  Just be sure to have Alcumus set to "advance only on mastery" (the default is to advance at passing).  Be warned that a kid can pass an Alcumus focus in as few as 2-3 problems or master it in 3-5 problems if they increase the difficulty and answer all correctly on the first try.  If you sign up for an account yourself and make yourself their teacher, you can track how many problems they're doing and how many are correct vs. incorrect.  You can also go back and reset the focus to an already mastered topic (in their account) and it will keep the kid there seemingly indefinitely. (I experimented with this and got 40/40 correct before I tired of it and moved on.  I was only able to get the focus's score to 98, and the program did not push me on to the next focus.)

If they need more practice you could have them do the Exercises instead of Alcumus or assign some/all of the section Exercises in addition to Alcumus.

What I did with my DS#3 for the first half of the book was to have him do the section Problems one day and then the related Alcumus focus.  Some Alcumus focuses are based on multiple book sections, so it wasn't always 1-to-1 for the sections and Alcumus.  Sometimes he'd do multiple sections before going back to Alcumus.  Then he'd do the challenge problems at the end of the chapter.  I only had him do the section Exercises and/or the chapter review when he seemed to need extra work in a topic.

My DS#1 started off doing the section Problems on day 1, section Exercises on day 2, Alcumus afterward as the topics fit in, then the review and challenge problems for each chapter.  If we'd stuck with that schedule it would have taken him a full two years to complete the book.  He got through chapter 4 like this then started over with the AoPS Online classes and I realized that they assign so much less work!  It really isn't necessary to do everything in the book unless the info isn't sticking or they need extra practice.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Cake and Pi

[wendyroo]

For a while I was having DS do the problems one day and the exercises the next.  But sometimes that was too slow.

Then, for a while I was trying to have him do both the problems and exercises for one section each day.  But often that was too fast.

Before long I just gave up on finding a universal system, and instead I go through a couple chapters at a time and mark how much I want him to do each day.  So, I might mark at the end of the problems...or after only 3/4 of them if it is a long section...or after the problems and exercises if it is a short section.  Sometimes this means he is finishing up one section's exercises and then doing some of the next section's problems.  C'est la vie.

We have been using Alcamus as review when he starts to get ahead of himself.  Normally he gets about 90% of the exercises and review problems and about 80% of the challenge problems correct on the first try.  Occasionally he starts struggling significantly more, and I announce that it is time to work on Alcumus for a while.  Often he has covered several chapters since he lasted logged on, so it might take him several days or even a week to bring Alcumus "up to date", but by the time that is done, he has almost always shored up his skills and is ready to proceed in the book.

Using this method, DS started AOPS Prealgebra last November, and he is now on Chapter 10 - so obviously the book has already taken longer than one school year, and may even take almost two (~18 months).  However, DS is young, and he only works for about 20-30 minutes each day, so that clearly slows down progress.

Wendy

[daijobu]

My kids are not 2E, but here was our schedule for all the AoPS books.  Each day we did the problems for each section together.  Then I'd have them do the exercises independently.  Next day, same with the next section.  

At the end of each chapter, they would spend 2-3 days for each of the Review and Challenge Problems.  We didn't use alcumus.  

[kiwik]

At 10 and 11 it doesn't really matter if it takes more than a year.

[Lori D.]

On 10/4/2018 at 1:36 AM, kiwik said:

At 10 and 11 it doesn't really matter if it takes more than a year.

I was thinking this as well.

And additionally I was thinking that esp. if these are younger students with a touch of 2E, there is no need to have to schedule math for a big 60 minute block. Two math sessions (a 25-30 min. initial session, and a later 10-15 min. session) would be plenty per day for an already-ahead student. And shorter sessions would help a student with mild executive functioning struggles build up focus endurance through several short, concentrated "bites" of learning. (Unless it is a student who hyper-focuses for an extended period of time on a topic of high interest, and who would easily be frustrated by "taking away" the math before the student was ready to move on to the next thing.)

OP -- from your initial post, it sounds like you already are seeing you'll need to have different methods and expectations for your different students. Yea! ? It looks like that might need to be # of problems for DD, and a different type of specific goal for DS.

Also, it is okay to give yourself permission to let go of feeling like you have to keep them together. If they need different schedules and different length of time spent on topics so that one ends up "ahead" of the other, so be it. That's okay! The point is not to keep them together, but to meet each student individually where that student is, and to help each student move forward from where they are. BEST of luck in finding what works best for each student! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Lori D.