I really need some advice - accountability dilemma and curriculum choices.

[Frontier Mom]

Let me just start by saying I love TOG. We are doing Year 2 but I am having some MAJOR accountability questions in all our schooling. I need some advice:

 

Dilemma: My 4 dc's are not being, well I'll just say it, honest about all their work. For instance, we use Easy Grammar and they are suppose to do the page and check it. At their ages, I believe this is doable. However, when I spot check it isn't done and/or checked.

 

Apologia Science test: My older two take the tests and my second one completely fails the test. Do I have him repeat the module, etc.?

 

Reading: The reading is assigned but when I ask questions, discuss, etc. I can tell they did not read the books.

 

Anyway, I think you can see the pattern. I told my dh I feel very confused right now as I don't know if they are learning anything.:confused: I am spending my time in the room with them but they don't seem to be learning independently at all. What should I do?

 

I told dh I am considering:

 

Never letting them see the outside again. (Kinda kidding)

 

Going with something with more accountability in addition to their reading. They seem to have endless free time, which of course is because they are not adequately studying. Thinking of something like CLE, etc. for LA.

 

Having assigned times for subjects. For instance, I don't want to change from Apologia because I don't think the curriculum is the problem - just the discipline, have a set time that W does science, math, etc.

 

Can anyone help me? Please?

[Cheryl in NM]

Hmmm...you're right, they are all old enough to handle this. The 8 year old might need some reminding, but the others shouldn't be having this problem. I'm not familiar with TOG, but I think maybe a reward system might be in order. If you punish (not seeing the light of day...ever...again! :tongue_smilie: BTDT!) it will only set up conflict for school. In the past I've rewarded ds with screen time for work completed or for work completed in a certain timeframe. You could reward for a certain "grade". Like if they answer enough questions correctly to earn a B then they can have screen time or an extra outing with a friend. On the other hand, maybe you could set an amount of time or a span of time dedicated to school work. If their work isn't completed to a B level in that amount of time, the work is homework. Of course, if they don't understand the work, that's different. But it seems that your dc understand the work, they are just milking the system.

 

Here's how our school day goes for a 12yob:

• Upon waking, at his liesure as long as it's before 10am, he gets dressed, eats breakfast, wipes down his bathroom and makes his bed
  
• We set a timer for 30 minutes and he reads his devotions and a selection (his choice) from Ghe Book of Virtues.
  
• He decides what subject he wants to do next and we set the timer accordingly:
  
• Math - 1 hour
  
• Spelling - 30 minutes
  
• Latin - 30 minutes
  
• Grammar - 30 minutes
  
• Literature - 30 minutes
  
• On Fridays we have a Science/History day so we set the timer accordingly
  
• World History - 1 hour
  
• American History - 1 hour
  
• Geography - 1 hour
  
• Science - 1 hour
  

The way the timer system works is if he doesn't finish the assigned work during the timer period it becomes homework. Homework is completed before any playdates, phone calls or screen time. He can read, play outside, work on his novel or drawing before doing homework. If he finishes his assigned work before the timer period he has that amount of time left for free time or to move onto another subject-his choice.

 

I"ve tried to give him as many opportunities for control as I could. It seems to be working well. It also cuts down on any arguing because once the timer starts it stays on. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but it never gets turned off for arguing or time wasting!

 

Some think reward systems are just bribary, I used to think that also. As a last resort I set up a reward system last year and it worked wonderfully. It also phased itself out and ds was still doing what he was supposed to. I hope this helps. If you like the curriculum don't change it, try to figure out a way to make the logistics work for your family.

[Pretty in Pink]

in that situation i would implement a schedule where we do lessons in a specific order at set times (i.e. math 1000-1100, science 1115-1200, etc) and i would check their work at the end of each time period before moving on to the next subject. if you check the work each day there is really no way for them to get behind. are you in the room when they are completing their assigned reading?

[Frontier Mom]

in that situation i would implement a schedule where we do lessons in a specific order at set times (i.e. math 1000-1100, science 1115-1200, etc) and i would check their work at the end of each time period before moving on to the next subject. if you check the work each day there is really no way for them to get behind. are you in the room when they are completing their assigned reading?

 

Yes and no. We have a learning room and two of mine stay in there all day. The other two go to their rooms for reading because they are distracted when I go over lessons with the others. I don't have a problem with them reading in their rooms but it is the things like setting time to study for a test, studying a book instead of browsing through it, really applying oneself to the subject versus sitting in your seat staring at the page, IYKWIM.

 

Even though they appear to be working on things, there seems to be no retention, no recall, well, basically nothing. I was thinking of mixing in something like CLE reading so I can at least make sure they are reading and comprehending at some level.

[Ellie]

Dilemma: My 4 dc's are not being, well I'll just say it, honest about all their work. For instance, we use Easy Grammar and they are suppose to do the page and check it. At their ages, I believe this is doable. However, when I spot check it isn't done and/or checked.

 

FTR, I never recommend allowing dc to check their own work in Easy Grammar, because (1) you are NOT the first mother to discover that her dc were not checking their EG assignments, and (2) you need to know what they are having trouble with so you can help them.

 

IMHO, *you* need to check every page before they go on to the next. Yes. Every.single.page. It only takes a minute.

 

As far as the Apologia is concerned, if your dc fails the test, he gets the failing grade and you move on. You can go over the errors with him, but you know, life is hard and then you die. Move on.

 

Do you go over each assignment with each child before sending him off? If not, don't you think you should? I would, especially with the younger 2. That's one reason we hs, so we can have interactions with our dc.

[Frontier Mom]

That is the most frustrating part - I do make sure to go over most subjects with them. However, things like Easy Grammar and Apologia are meant to be done by them. With four I cannot go over every problem and every lesson each day but I don't think that is in their best interest anyway. I believe at some point one should desire an education for the future.

 

I think I am realistic about expectations and work load. However, it seems to be more an accountability question than a comprehension question.

[sassenach]

Do they take your dh seriously? At the end of last year, I was having a lot of problems with dd just being plain sloppy. She could do her work correctly, she was just choosing to be lazy about it. Around here, I do all the teaching and dh is pretty much hands off of school stuff. What I started doing was a weekly report. I put together a sample of her week, including the exceptionally good or bad, and dh looks over it. What a motivator! I really needed that backup and dd really needed the extra motivation. I would equate it to the progress reports that public schools send home. hth,

[Frontier Mom]

Do they take your dh seriously? At the end of last year, I was having a lot of problems with dd just being plain sloppy. She could do her work correctly, she was just choosing to be lazy about it. Around here, I do all the teaching and dh is pretty much hands off of school stuff. What I started doing was a weekly report. I put together a sample of her week, including the exceptionally good or bad, and dh looks over it. What a motivator! I really needed that backup and dd really needed the extra motivation. I would equate it to the progress reports that public schools send home. hth,

 

Thanks, that is a good idea. Actually when my dh got home and found out they had been dishonest he was pretty livid with them. Basically we came up with an accountability system to Dad. Re: he will do weekly spelling tests, vocab tests, look over science tests, etc. to hold them accountable.

 

For our family, we are not struggling with ability but desire. In other words, they are able to do well when punished, etc. but don't desire to learn it the first time which I believe is a heart issue. I am glad dh stepped up and is helping me hold them accountable.

 

Also, I will be in the learning room from 9 to 2:30 but they cannot ask anything after that time. They can do independent work before and after that time but lately I have been tied up until well after 7 each night. That makes for a cranky wife, IYKWIM. He discussed that a ps or private school teacher would not be available all evening so neither will Mom. They must learn to be better managers of their time.

[Ria]

Are you discussing what they've been reading with them? In science as well as history? While Apologia might be able to be used by a student independently, most kids do better with instruction and discussion (I couldn't tell from your post if you already do this).

 

Ria

[Frontier Mom]

You have to check all work. It is a pain, but it is true. If they can't answer basic discussion questions then send them back to read it again, and again, and again ..... until they figure out that actually reading it the first time is faster.

 

"Half done is twice begun" is quoted daily at my house.

 

Can I borrow that phrase here? Yep, unfortunately I am coming to that conclusion. But I am not liking it one bit...:rant:

[asta]

My DS (14) has, every time I have said "did you check that algebra page" curtly informed me "that is YOUR job - I am NOT going to do your job", and turned around and done something else.

 

It snaps me right back into reality...

 

He's right, of course. If I say I want to be his teacher, I need to take the crappy parts with the good.

 

 

asta

 

(the only other thing I have to add is about failed work: are you teaching to mastery or to the test? If it is to the former, the child needs to go back and review the lesson and discuss it with you; if it is to check the blocks on a test, just fail him)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

For instance, we use Easy Grammar and they are suppose to do the page and check it. At their ages, I believe this is doable. However, when I spot check it isn't done and/or checked.

 

In my house this would be called breaking he honor code. It would be a serious offense and would result in loss of privileges for a week, possibly.

 

Apologia Science test: My older two take the tests and my second one completely fails the test. Do I have him repeat the module, etc.?

 

My dd struggled with a couple concepts in biology. I requite 80% to pass and there were 2 times she didn't make it. So I did have her review the module again, and I made sure to give her extra help, as well has have her dad help her so he could provide info from a new angle.

 

Reading: The reading is assigned but when I ask questions, discuss, etc. I can tell they did not read the books.

 

Again, I would consider this breaking the honor code. Serious consequences would follow.

 

Having assigned times for subjects. For instance, I don't want to change from Apologia because I don't think the curriculum is the problem - just the discipline, have a set time that W does science, math, etc.

 

Can anyone help me? Please?

 

I don't think you need assigned times for subjects. I just think the kids need to realize this is serious business. Here, no workie workie= no playie playie. You want TV- schoolwork has to be finished. You want computer- same deal. Outside with friends? Not if the Latin page you turned in looks like a sloppy mess. She has taken until 5-6 PM before doing school. That's on her. I don't let it bother me. Sure, I can;t go out anywhere, but I can talk on the phone, surf the net, or find something else to do to occupy my time.

 

One day I had a friend help me out and come over here with her kid. The kid got to go in dd's room and play with her stuff since dd wasn't finished with her work. That was a good lesson learned right there.

 

I also make her see how good it is when she finishes her work quickly and accurately. Wow- we have time for you to bake a cake. There is time to go shopping. She can watch a movie or play Club Penguin for a couple hours if she wants.

 

Your kids sound like totally normal kids in that they are trying to test you to see what they can get away with. Just hang in there and keep them accountable. I know it's stresful, but trust me- if you stay firm and calm there are better days ahead!

[abbeyej]

Well, I pretty strongly *don't* believe that young students should be doing their work totally independently. Sure, they should be able to read or fill in a workbook or take a test without you standing over them, but you (it's your job! you're the teacher!) should be checking their work and discussing their reading (history, science, literature) *with* them. That's why you're there! :)

 

And yes, if a child fails the science test *after* reading the material *and* discussing it with you, then yes, I would require them to do the unit again. But perhaps you need to teach them *how* to study the material as well. Teach them outlining skills, how to create a science vocabulary list with definitions, etc. Some of this is intuitive to some students, but many have to be *taught* how to read a text and learn the material for a test. That's not an unreasonable skill to have to teach given your kids' ages.

 

And the grammar... Well, you're in the room with them. All it takes is a glance over their shoulders, "Hey! How's that going? Does everything make sense today? Oooh, I think you should take a second look at this section over here... Okay, bring it to me when you're done, and we'll check it together." That way when they bring it to you, you can discuss anything they've missed and clear up confusion *now*.

 

Honestly, I don't think you're saving yourself time in the long run by letting them get away with not learning anything now. And you're not teaching them independence at this point -- you're teaching them to slide. And I doubt that's the lesson you intended them to learn right now.

[Frontier Mom]

Thanks for answering and yes, the breach of trust is a definite break in the honor code here. As for the tests, I am completely against teaching to the test. That is one reason I love the Apologia science tests because they are more discussion and not matching, fill-in-the blank tests. Rather, by the test I can get a feel for how much they learned on any particular module.

 

Now saying that, I do not require but would love an A. However, I really check the test more for understanding than a grade. My problem with the last test was my one particular son, who seems determined to be the first educated child that never read, just studied the definitions. No reading of the text, no watching the Multimedia CD, no experiments - well you get the picture even though he told me he did them each day. And, he does sit with the book open. It makes absolutely no sense to me why you would just sit with a book open and daydream when you could be reading at the same time. We have been through everything and his desk is right beside mine now. He must do his work at his desk but he will still manage to not read. To me -a huge reader and lover of learning - it just makes no sense.

 

Today we instigated time management sheets. Each sheet is broken into 15 min. intervals and they must record what they are working on by time. My dh is to go over their time sheet and assignment sheet with them each evening until things get into line. I am committed to home education even though it is difficult at times. Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

[Rhondabee]

Hmmm....I didn't post yesterday because I knew you wouldn't want to hear this....

 

But, one thing that makes Apologia harder than the average textbook is that it is so chatty about every single topic - and there is no distinction made in the text whether the topic is majorly important (hey - learn this, it's gonna be on the test!) or if it's merely interesting (read and enjoy - but don't worry about studying this part).

 

What I have resorted to you would probably call "teaching to the test" - however, Apologia's tests are not essay (prove that you learned *something*, *anything* is fine as long as you can write rationally about it). They are very targeted questions, with very precise answers. Answers that are *not* found quoted in the text, but that require a basic concept to be mastered, and then applied to the question at hand.

 

I started breaking up the Study Guide questions so that ds answers the ones that apply to his reading for that day. This is similar to the end-of-lesson review questions in a normal textbook. Then, the following day, we orally review the On Your Own (or discuss his experiment), check the Study Guide questions, and go over the Module Summary paragraphs (I read, he fills in the blank). I quiz him on vocabulary fairly regularly, too. Since I have started beginning each day with an oral quiz time, my ds has had a much easier time majoring on the majors instead of the minors, and that has really helped him both enjoy the course and make good grades.

 

(Especially the first two modules in General Science are especially difficult to wade through.)

 

Best wishes!