Miquon...pros, cons, what comes after?

[Emmalm]

I would love some input from all of you Miquon users!

 

I have been doing Singapore math 1 with dd7 this year. While it started off very well, we have stalled on their addition within 40 by making tens. While I like some aspects of Singapore, there are some I do not. While we are soldiering on-- I am not one to give up just cause we hit a rough spot-- I am not convinced I want to continue with Singapore next year. I am intrigued by Miquon. Please share pros, and cons with me! Also, what do you use after you finish book 6? How dose the transition go from Miquon to other curriculums?

 

Thanks!

[Lori D.]

Loved Miquon here. We used the bulk of it as a spine math for one year, and then finished it off as a supplement over the next 2-3 years, as topics fit in with whatever else we were using. So, you could use Miquon now as a go-to for awhile while DD is stalled on Singapore addition. :)

 

(Side note: I often saw how setting aside the spine math program for awhile and using a supplement that focused on some completely different topic, for a week, or a month, and then coming back to the spine math program, that the problem topic was no longer a problem -- it seemed to "simmer on the back burner" while the student was enjoying other math topics. Using a manipulative and a go-along booklet is ideal for these little side steps. Miquon could also work very well in this way, as well as presenting the problem topic in a very new/different way that might click better.)

 

 

You asked about the pros and cons of Miquon:

 

The pros: can be used as "mastery" or as "spiral"; discovery-based and helps encourage making math connections and math thinking; inexpensive; hands-on; see the Education Unboxed videos for ideas on using it.

 

The cons: a few of the workpages in the first workbook are cryptic; not all parents or students "click" with the Asian-style, discovery-based method of math.

 

You asked about the transition from Miquon, and what we transitioned to:

 

After Miquon, math-minded DS#1 went to Singapore and loved it, and used it all the way through Singapore Primary 6A/B and then about half of Singapore New Elementary Math. From there, he switched to Jacobs Algebra 1 and Jacobs Geometry. He loved Miquon, and he loved Singapore. No troubles with transition, as there is some basic similarities in the approach of Miquon and Singapore.

 

After Miquon, math-struggler DS#2 went through a number of different programs for the next several years, and we finally found Math-U-See in that worked for him. He used that up through high school. Up through MUS Pre-Algebra, we also used a number of supplements:

- excerpts of Singapore 4A/B, 5A/B, and 6A/B

- Keys to Fractions; Decimals; Percents

- Hands-On Equations

 

While math does not at all come naturally to DS#2, in those early years when he esp. struggled with math, Miquon clicked the best for him of all the things we tried. And while he didn't necessarily like Singapore as it didn't come naturally to him, using Singapore as a supplement in the late elementary/middle school grades absolutely helped him develop and strengthen his weak math-thinking/problem-solving skills -- something I think MUS is a bit weak about.

 

 

My overall advice about math is to as much as possible use a spine and supplement all through the elementary grades that come at math from different angles to help build seeing how problem-solving can come from different angles, and that there is more than one way to explain and see how math works, which really helps build making math connections and math thinking. Miquon, Singapore, and MUS worked out to be the major programs that worked here. For other students, that may be Saxon, Horizons, MEP, Teaching Textbooks, Beast Academy, Life of Fred, or other. :)

 

BEST of luck in finding what those math programs are that work well for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[Ellie]

Loved Miquon here. We used the bulk of it as a spine math for one year, and then finished it off as a supplement over the next 2-3 years, as topics fit in with whatever else we were using. So, you could use Miquon now as a go-to for awhile while DD is stalled on Singapore addition. :)

 

(Side note: I often saw how setting aside the spine math program for awhile and using a supplement that focused on some completely different topic, for a week, or a month, and then coming back to the spine math program, that the problem topic was no longer a problem -- it seemed to "simmer on the back burner" while the student was enjoying other math topics. Using a manipulative and a go-along booklet is ideal for these little side steps. Miquon could also work very well in this way, as well as presenting the problem topic in a very new/different way that might click better.)

 

 

You asked about the pros and cons of Miquon:

 

The pros: can be used as "mastery" or as "spiral"; discovery-based and helps encourage making math connections and math thinking; inexpensive; hands-on; see the Education Unboxed videos for ideas on using it.

 

The cons: a few of the workpages in the first workbook are cryptic; not all parents or students "click" with the Asian-style, discovery-based method of math.

 

You asked about the transition from Miquon, and what we transitioned to:

 

After Miquon, math-minded DS#1 went to Singapore and loved it, and used it all the way through Singapore Primary 6A/B and then about half of Singapore New Elementary Math. From there, he switched to Jacobs Algebra 1 and Jacobs Geometry. He loved Miquon, and he loved Singapore. No troubles with transition, as there is some basic similarities in the approach of Miquon and Singapore.

 

After Miquon, math-struggler DS#2 went through a number of different programs for the next several years, and we finally found Math-U-See in that worked for him. He used that up through high school. Up through MUS Pre-Algebra, we also used a number of supplements:

- excerpts of Singapore 4A/B, 5A/B, and 6A/B

- Keys to Fractions; Decimals; Percents

- Hands-On Equations

 

While math does not at all come naturally to DS#2, in those early years when he esp. struggled with math, Miquon clicked the best for him of all the things we tried. And while he didn't necessarily like Singapore as it didn't come naturally to him, using Singapore as a supplement in the late elementary/middle school grades absolutely helped him develop and strengthen his weak math-thinking/problem-solving skills -- something I think MUS is a bit weak about.

 

 

My overall advice about math is to as much as possible use a spine and supplement all through the elementary grades that come at math from different angles to help build seeing how problem-solving can come from different angles, and that there is more than one way to explain and see how math works, which really helps build making math connections and math thinking. Miquon, Singapore, and MUS worked out to be the major programs that worked here. For other students, that may be Saxon, Horizons, MEP, Teaching Textbooks, Beast Academy, Life of Fred, or other. :)

 

BEST of luck in finding what those math programs are that work well for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

The thing with Miquon is that it is a process math; that is, it depends on the use of manipulatives (Cuisenaire rods), as opposed to a traditional math (one which may use manipulatives, or visuals, but which is not dependent on them. Rod and Staff Publishers, ABeka, BJUP, etc., would be examples). Spiral vs mastery is really not involved.

 

[Lori D.]

The thing with Miquon is that it is a process math; that is, it depends on the use of manipulatives (Cuisenaire rods), as opposed to a traditional math (one which may use manipulatives, or visuals, but which is not dependent on them. Rod and Staff Publishers, ABeka, BJUP, etc., would be examples). Spiral vs mastery is really not involved.

 

 

Agree about the use of manipulatives, but disagree about spiral vs. mastery. The set-up of Miquon absolutely allows you to present the topics in the workbooks in either a "mastery" or "spiral" manner. I  know some people disagree that "spiral" or "mastery" is "even a thing" (lol), but when I use those terms what *I* mean is are two different types of presentations (not connected to use of manipulatives). 

 

1. "Spiral" = A bite of instruction on a specific topic, and then the next several lessons cover "bites" of info about other topics, and then several lessons later, spiral back around to touch on that original topic again to add another "bite" of instruction to build on it. Instruction is incremental and with increasing depth, but with time between each new step and interspersing several other topics in between the next new step and earlier step of the first topic. Review is built into each lesson to keep touch with the various topics being juggled.

 

2. "Mastery" = Mastery has to do with continuing in incremental steps, in increasing depth, on a single topic. The incremental steps are one after another, without gaps of time or inserting info on other topics between the incremental steps of the single topic. Most mastery programs do include some sort of regular review of past topics to keep those topics "fresh" in the student's mind.

 

 

How "spiral" and "mastery" types of presentation are both a possibility with Miquon:

 

"Spiral" presentation in Miquon is to do the workbooks in order, and page order within a workbook, so a topic is introduced, worked with briefly, and then set aside when a new topic is introduced a few lessons later. The topic is circled back to in the next workbook, and a new incremental step of info is added. The Spiral involves setting aside instruction on one topic for a bit of time while presenting info on a new topic, and then spiraling back around to touch on that earlier topic for the next incremental step.

 

"Mastery" presentation in Miquon is to follow a topic from one workbook to the next in increasing depth until completion of the topic or the student "hits the wall" for awhile with that topic, then pick another topic, go back to the early workbooks and pick a new topic to follow from one workbook to the next. Rinse. Repeat. 

 

True, there is no built-in review in Miquon for either type of presentation, but you could easily enough add review through supplemental materials.

 

 

Others are free to see or explain the difference types of presentation of material in math programs in other ways as well, or to disagree about Miquon and options of presenting the material. "Mastery" and "spiral" just happen to be constructs that work well for me and that I see used very frequently on these boards. :)

Edited March 15, 2017 by Lori D.

[Emmalm]

I was kind of hoping to be convinced one way or the other, but I guess getting more info so I can make my own educated decision is better! 🤓

 

I do wonder about the reliance on manipulatives... is it easy to wean off from them? And from what I have been able to see online, which isn't much, it seems much more laid back than Singapore. Is this so? I guess I worry about it not being intensive enough and then not being able to transition to something else, something that seems more demanding...? This is the first I have ever even looked at Miquon, so I have no idea what it is really like, sorry if the questions seem silly!

Edited March 15, 2017 by Emmalm

[Julie of KY]

I was kind of hoping to be convinced one way or the other, but I guess getting more info so I can make my own educated decision is better! 🤓

 

I do wonder about the reliance on manipulatives... is it easy to wean off from them? And from what I have been able to see online, which isn't much, it seems much more laid back than Singapore. Is this so? I guess I worry about it not being intensive enough and then not being able to transition to something else, something that seems more demanding...? This is the first I have ever even looked at Miquon, so I have no idea what it is really like, sorry if the questions seem silly!

 

I used a mix of Singapore and Miquon so it was easy for us to transition from Miquon.

 

I would not worry about becoming reliant on manipulatives. Some kids have a hard time linking an abstract squiggle of a number three to  real life and the manipulatives help make this transition. It also really helps kids gain a better understanding of math. Seeing that four  - five rods is the  same as five - four rods helps make connections that memorizing facts don't always do. As kids get better at math then it becomes more of a nuisance to use rods and they just do it in their head, but as long as the rods are helping then I'd let kids keep using them.

 

I will let you make your own decision about whether to use MIquon, but I would encourage you to use some manipulatives like Cuisenaire rods for any program as it helps so many kids understand math better.

[RoundAbout]

I also wouldn't worry about reliance on manipulatives. Students will naturally stop using them when it becomes faster in their head. There's a natural transition where they will still use them for hard problems but do the easy ones without. I think the visualization involved with something like C-rods is invaluable. My son is way past the manipulative stage but I'm convinced he can still to fast mental 2 digit calculations because of his time with the rods. 

[Farrar]

I think it's the wrong perspective to worry about "weaning off" of the manipulatives. They're not a crutch, they're a stage of learning. And they facilitate discovery.

 

We loved Miquon. Loved its flexibility, loved the discovery aspects, loved the look and simplicity of the pages, loved the way you make your own lab sheets, loved the approach. I think it's especially amazing with fraction concepts, but it's great with conceptual questions all the way around. I know many use it as a supplement, but I think it's great as a spine for K-2.

 

I think it's easier to say its weaknesses. Not good for people who are afraid to wing it and need a script. It's "weird" looking and that intimidates some people. A program has to work for the teacher as well as the student, after all. It's also not heavy on drill and practice. That's easy to add, but if you think that should be central to a program, Miquon doesn't have it. It's also not great for a kid who isn't going to be able to do that gentle discovery math work. I think some kids just need you to tell them things first - kids who need math and other subjects to be really parts to whole.

 

Now that Education Unboxed is out there, I think doing Miquon is easier than ever... if you have the ability to let go a little bit.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Farrar

[Farrar]

The thing with Miquon is that it is a process math; that is, it depends on the use of manipulatives (Cuisenaire rods), as opposed to a traditional math (one which may use manipulatives, or visuals, but which is not dependent on them. Rod and Staff Publishers, ABeka, BJUP, etc., would be examples). Spiral vs mastery is really not involved.

 

 

 

Agree about the use of manipulatives, but disagree about spiral vs. mastery. The set-up of Miquon absolutely allows you to present the topics in the workbooks in either a "mastery" or "spiral" manner. I  know some people disagree that "spiral" or "mastery" is "even a thing" (lol), but when I use those terms what *I* mean is are two different types of presentations (not connected to use of manipulatives). 

 

So... I agree with Lori that you can present Miquon as "spiral" or as "mastery" because of the way the thread system is set up in Miquon. It's a really flexible program, which is one of its greatest strengths.

 

But... I'll agree much more strongly with Ellie that really to focus on spiral vs. mastery with Miquon is asking the wrong question. Miquon is strongly discovery based or process based or conceptual... or however you want to break that down... and that's by far its most important quality. The spiral or mastery thing is really not part of the Miquon equation the way it is with some other programs. It was written before that was even a debate in math education.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Farrar

[Lori D.]

I was kind of hoping to be convinced one way or the other, but I guess getting more info so I can make my own educated decision is better! 🤓

 

No one knows you child and understands how you child learns better than you. :) And, you know yourself best as to what YOU need out of a program to be able to guide your child through it.

 

 

I do wonder about the reliance on manipulatives... is it easy to wean off from them?

 

Manipulatives are a tool for helping to visualize math concepts and to be a stepping stone in understanding how the functions and algorithms work. I don't know as though I've heard of anyone on these boards have a child who didn't move on to the algorithms from using manipulatives into 

 

Just an observation here, but the use of the words "reliance" and "wean" suggest that you might be viewing manipulatives as a "crutch". That is really not the most accurate way to view manipulatives. For example, check out this article on how research is showing that counting on fingers (the most basic manipulative of all) actually helps solidify math concepts.

 

Manipulatives are a very valuable and powerful tool that help children understand concepts, beyond the simple calculations and equations required in elementary grades. There are materials out there for using manipulatives in presenting math concepts up through the high school math levels. :) Even the math program that I tend to think of as being one of the most "abstract" in presentation (Saxon) makes heavy use of manipulatives up through the grade 3 math program.

 

But in answer to your question: Yes, once a child grasps the underlying abstract concept and algorithm being demonstrated with the manipulative, the student tends to easily/naturally move on to written notation/calculations, and use the abstract formulas, or problem-solve via mental math. Most math programs -- even Miquon -- are set up to include sections where the student practices equations and problem-solving without manipulatives.

 

 

And from what I have been able to see online, which isn't much, it seems much more laid back than Singapore. Is this so? I guess I worry about it not being intensive enough and then not being able to transition to something else, something that seems more demanding...?

 

Well, rather than "laid back" or "less demanding", I would describe Miquon as less formal, or less scripted, than Singapore and other traditional math programs. It's certainly rigorous enough, IMO, as it presents some topics, and some higher-level problem-solving opportunities, that aren't typically presented until grade 4 or even grade 5 in more traditional math program sequences.

 

I'm guessing you are concerned that Miquon doesn't lay enough foundation or isn't thorough enough for a student to easily move on up into other programs. Again, JMO, but from what I saw with my own DSs, and hear of experiences with others on these boards, if anything, students who really click well with Miquon often tend to have a much more thorough grasp of math concepts and the "why" things work, and are much more able to problem-solve quickly when encountering a new topic or are presented a math topic from a previously unencountered perspective than a student who has done a math program that allowed or encouraged memorizing algorithms and math facts without having made any meaningful math connections.

 

About the only thing I hear people mention that Miquon doesn't cover is the topics money, or of telling time. And it doesn't do math fact drills. But those are easily addressed with supplements.

 

If you're concerned about Miquon, I recommend using it heavily as a supplement to whatever you decide to go with as a "spine" math.

 

 

This is the first I have ever even looked at Miquon, so I have no idea what it is really like, sorry if the questions seem silly!

 

There are no silly questions when researching! You're trying to figure out what something is like with not having seen it or experienced it, so I don't see how any questions would be silly. :) Just hoping all the answers you get to your questions will be helpful and not create confusion.  :laugh:

 

 

ETA -- lol, cross-posted with Farrar, who I had similar thoughts with re: use of manipulatives.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Lori D.

[Emmalm]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all your help!

 

I agree that "weaning" off manipulatives is not the right mindset, Thanks for the correction and reassurance. We do use manipulatives now, but since they are not always necessary or suggested I probably err on the side of not using them quite enough. I was not good at mental math as a child and I want my kids to be better at it than I was. Dd7 is rather timid and sometimes that overflows into our schooling, of course. So guess I meant I would worry about her hesitation and second-guessing herself if she thinks she knows a problem, but would want to check to make sure. I am sure that once she gains the confidence that would end, but she can be so hesitant! Dd5 is much more full-steam-ahead which can cause dd7 to second guess herself even more! Oh sibling dynamics!

 

I know I phrased some questions in less-than-helpful terms, but since I have only been able to see about two pages online, I didn't even know what adjectives to use! Looking forward to our homeschool conference. I think I will definitely get this and either abandon Singapore for the time being, or supplement.

 

Sigh, time to go do a math lesson!

[Miss Tick]

I'm enjoying the philosophy discussion and can't really add to it, but I will mention to the OP that my dd moved from Miquon into BA smoothly (and we've only gotten it manipulative once this year!)

[BooksandBoys]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all your help!

 

I agree that "weaning" off manipulatives is not the right mindset, Thanks for the correction and reassurance. We do use manipulatives now, but since they are not always necessary or suggested I probably err on the side of not using them quite enough. I was not good at mental math as a child and I want my kids to be better at it than I was. Dd7 is rather timid and sometimes that overflows into our schooling, of course. So guess I meant I would worry about her hesitation and second-guessing herself if she thinks she knows a problem, but would want to check to make sure. I am sure that once she gains the confidence that would end, but she can be so hesitant! Dd5 is much more full-steam-ahead which can cause dd7 to second guess herself even more! Oh sibling dynamics!

 

I know I phrased some questions in less-than-helpful terms, but since I have only been able to see about two pages online, I didn't even know what adjectives to use! Looking forward to our homeschool conference. I think I will definitely get this and either abandon Singapore for the time being, or supplement.

 

Sigh, time to go do a math lesson!

I would argue that manipulatives, especially base ten blocks and Cuisinaire rods actually help a child develop better mental math abilities than the child who never uses manipulatives. Being able to visualize what you are adding/subtracting/fractioning makes doing the calculation that much easier.

 

I'm another huge fan of Miquon. We used it as spine for K, then used Miquon and Singapore concurrently beginning in 1st. He easily started in Singapore 2A after Miquon Orange and Red for K. My current Kindergartner is afterschooling with Miquon Orange and MUS Primer (he wanted different blocks than his brother had).

 

My kids naturally stop using manipulatives when it's faster to do the math without them than with them. They return to manipulatives when it's faster with them again because the concepts became trickier.

 

I'll PM you more pages if that would help you make your decision. Just PM if interested.