RightStart to... Maybe Saxon?

[scoutingmom]

I have been using RightStart math with my kids for quite a long time. My kids are currently 13,11,8, and 6. Oldest has dyslexia and a few other LD's and finished level E at Christmas. The 11yo had done about 2/3 of level E last year, and we restarted level E in September as that seems like the best plan. The 8yo is in level D and the 6 to is in level B.

 

So, my 13yo has always done pretty well in RightStart even though it took a bit longer to go through a couple of levels (normal in edition 1, and he was 8 when starting level B after moving from another program. He generally got in the 85-95% range on reviews and tests. I considered level E to be about grade 5 level.

 

I started him in MEP level 7, and have determined that that probably isn't going to work for him at all. The first 2 units were fairly easy and he did not do well. I think he will need some more review on a regular basis... So I had him take the placement test for Saxon. He bombed that.... I have the first part of the grade 3-8 type placement test.... He got 4 right. It recommended 5/4 (or if a grade 3 or 4 student to try the test for level 3.). I would question the placement except he got placed as grade 3 in Prodigy Math last September. I don't get it!

 

I have also been concerned with the 11yo. She was really bright in math when younger. She has for the last couple of years both around 65%-75% range, more likely to get flustered, and any pausing to work on things, and now starting a level over isn't helping. She also got 4 right (a different 4) on the Saxon Placement.

 

I have the same test to the 8yo and she also got a different 4 correct.

 

So now I question RightStart math for my kids... They don't seem to know math as well as I thought.

 

But I am sitting here thinking... My 8th grade student barely places into grade 4 math?

 

I have access to 2nd edition 5/4 through a library.... No tests or anything but the textbook. I had my son try the practice pages of lesson 10 to see if we can maybe start payday through. I know that people who 'test' through a level look for 90% or more to keep going. He got 84% so I have let him start at lesson 11. I have started the 11yo and 8yo at lesson 1. I look at these lessons and how simple they look... Sigh.

 

I hear good stuff about Saxon... I had bad stuff.... I don't want to jump around a lot, not do I have money to do so.

 

I want my son to have high school worth math soon enough.

 

Suggestions?

 

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[OneStepAtATime]

Saxon might work well.  It might not.  Hard to tell, unfortunately, until you try a program out for a bit.  For my own kids it ended up being a poor fit.  CLE worked better.  Lots of spiral but I could cut out review when they were solid on something.  Math facts are worked on separately from the primary lesson.  It has a terrific flash card system and a really great math reference chart.  If you were interested in CLE you could give the placement tests and then just order the first couple of light units.  Each level starts with a review unit that checks for understanding of previous concepts from previous levels so that might be a good way to review.  The next unit would give you a better idea if the program is a better fit overall.  The units are less than $4 each (or used to be) so you could just buy those first two light units for each level your kids tested into, try out those units (keep in mind that the first light unit of each level is the review unit so it does NOT reflect how the rest of the program is structured) and then reassess at the end of the 6 or so weeks it may take to work through them.  You won't waste much time or money trying it out that way.  You could even order and start it in the next couple of weeks.  

 

CLE diagnostic tests:  https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

 

CLE math: https://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4

 

Or, if you really think Saxon is the way to go, maybe see if your library has it.  Or someone local might have at least some of the levels you are needing.  Perhaps they would be willing to lend them to you for a month or so just to test out the material?

[scoutingmom]

Saxon might work well. It might not. Hard to tell, unfortunately, until you try a program out for a bit. For my own kids it ended up being a poor fit. CLE worked better. Lots of spiral but I could cut out review when they were solid on something. Math facts are worked on separately from the primary lesson. It has a terrific flash card system and a really great math reference chart. If you were interested in CLE you could give the placement tests and then just order the first couple of light units. Each level starts with a review unit that checks for understanding of previous concepts from previous levels so that might be a good way to review. The next unit would give you a better idea if the program is a better fit overall. The units are less than $4 each (or used to be) so you could just buy those first two light units for each level your kids tested into, try out those units (keep in mind that the first light unit of each level is the review unit so it does NOT reflect how the rest of the program is structured) and then reassess at the end of the 6 or so weeks it may take to work through them. You won't waste much time or money trying it out that way. You could even order and start it in the next couple of weeks.

 

CLE diagnostic tests: https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

 

CLE math: https://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4

 

Or, if you really think Saxon is the way to go, maybe see if your library has it. Or someone local might have at least some of the levels you are needing. Perhaps they would be willing to lend them to you for a month or so just to test out the material?

I have access to Saxon textbooks only through the library and have done a couple of lessons. I have considered CLE but it doesn't do well off high school... I'd prefer not to have to switch again in a couple of years. I also like how Saxon isn't a workbook so if I do but I don't have to buy it for each student....

 

I may have another look...

 

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[MistyMountain]

I do not recommend Saxon for a struggling student. It a very poor fit for mine. Plus it is not easy to accelerate through to try to get them caught up because there are so many problems and each new thing only gets touched upon with a few examples in each lesson.

[scoutingmom]

I do not recommend Saxon for a struggling student. It a very poor fit for mine. Plus it is not easy to accelerate through to try to get them caught up because there are so many problems and each new thing only gets touched upon with a few examples in each lesson.

So what would you suggest?

 

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[Faithful_Steward]

I wouldn't put your eighth grader in a fourth grade math book. Try something like Lial's BCM or Abeka's 7th grade Basic math book. Work through every lesson together at a whiteboard.

 

Is this an issue with concepts or math facts? It is possible to fail a test because of math facts. If you aren't sure, then I'd give them some fact charts and have them retake the assessments.

 

You might also try Kahn Academy.

[PeterPan]

Oh sigh, deep breath. You want the truth or you want to feel better? The truth is that only a wicked few bright kids are going to go through the RS progression and go into pre-algebra. It was a bunch of hooey. Yes, you very well could have an 8th grader testing into 4th grade math. I think we went from RS D to BJU3. I'm trying to remember, been a long time. It wasn't an exact slide. Like her speed/comfort was BJU2, her skills were BJU4, and we picked BJU3 to make it a build your confidence experience.

 

I would get evals for your oldest, get the SLDs that are remaining diagnosed, and then make a sensible choice.

 

Saxon actually fits some kids, so I'm not going to get into some pissing match about whose math is better. I think the point is get evals, be honest. My ds has SLD math, and Ronit Bird fits him. That's the real back up, things were not clicking option. RB has a book meant for older kids. http://www.ronitbird.com/books/#book2 Also OneStep in the past has posted about curricula online meant for SLD math. 

 

Just as a slide, BJU is very similar to RightStart. The things you liked would be there, and it's good math. I'm not saying your dc will find it a good fit, because I doubt they will. Just saying if you're curious, it's a good slide.

 

I don't think your dc will go well into Lials if they have math SLD. If they didn't, as far as just age, sure it could be an option. Personally, I didn't like the Lial books, but I'm admittedly very picky and toss things for miniscule reasons. 

 

Odds are if you go into a regular, grade leveled math that you're really looking at a 4th or 5th grade text, yes. Have you done a MUS placement test? 

 

You could do Ronit Bird through the summer and go into a grade 7 text in the fall. That would be like a total dream, but you could try. I think you might find you get really bogged down if you spend a lot of time doing reams and reams of computation. If she has SLD math, it might be that less is more. Less computation, more work on problem solving. Not pages of math but a few problems with engagement done very faithfully every day.

 

Come over to LC and gab with heathermomster. She actually taught this age with the same problem.

 

I missed what you're saying about getting Saxon through the library. You'll need the books to use them. Do you have a card with no fines and longer teacher rental so you can keep them? Or you want to try? I would definitely put it on the try list, sure. But supplement it with Ronit Bird. Like do the Saxon placement test, if it's calling to you, place her where it says, but every day do that AND Ronit Bird. I think that could be a really solid plan.

 

Your gut has been on so far. Some kids are going to be tedious, no matter how they're taught. Sure some evals would help. Sure you're in a pickle. But still some kids just flat have SLDs or issues. So the main thing is find another thing that is the next step and be diligent. Me, I'd want evals. But beyond that, go with your gut. If your gut likes how she does with Saxon, just do it and ignore the hordes.

Edited March 6, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[scoutingmom]

I wouldn't put your eighth grader in a fourth grade math book. Try something like Lial's BCM or Abeka's 7th grade Basic math book. Work through every lesson together at a whiteboard.

 

Is this an issue with concepts or math facts? It is possible to fail a test because of math facts. If you aren't sure, then I'd give them some fact charts and have them retake the assessments.

 

You might also try Kahn Academy.

 

 

I am not totally sure - I know that he has always seemed to get the concept and math facts are hard for him.  

 

I had kind of looked at Lial's a year or so ago, and felt it looked pretty busy.  But yes, it would probably work better to find an adult math book for him.

[scoutingmom]

Saxon might work well.  It might not.  Hard to tell, unfortunately, until you try a program out for a bit.  For my own kids it ended up being a poor fit.  CLE worked better.  Lots of spiral but I could cut out review when they were solid on something.  Math facts are worked on separately from the primary lesson.  It has a terrific flash card system and a really great math reference chart.  If you were interested in CLE you could give the placement tests and then just order the first couple of light units.  Each level starts with a review unit that checks for understanding of previous concepts from previous levels so that might be a good way to review.  The next unit would give you a better idea if the program is a better fit overall.  The units are less than $4 each (or used to be) so you could just buy those first two light units for each level your kids tested into, try out those units (keep in mind that the first light unit of each level is the review unit so it does NOT reflect how the rest of the program is structured) and then reassess at the end of the 6 or so weeks it may take to work through them.  You won't waste much time or money trying it out that way.  You could even order and start it in the next couple of weeks.  

 

CLE diagnostic tests:  https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

 

CLE math: https://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4

 

Or, if you really think Saxon is the way to go, maybe see if your library has it.  Or someone local might have at least some of the levels you are needing.  Perhaps they would be willing to lend them to you for a month or so just to test out the material?

 

Well, I gave my kids the CLE placement today...  I gave either the test recommended for their grade, or an easier one.

 

My 6yo grade 1 student passed the 100 level test so would place into Level 200, so that was nice to see.

 

My 8yo grade 3 student did not pass the level 300 (she got 63 but needed 75), so she would place into level 300... so probably what would be expected for a student about 2/3 of the way through grade 3.

 

My 11yo grade 6 student was given the level 400 test (it actually recommends the 500 test but says that level 400 test might also be given.)  She got all the questions right she attempted (which wasn't many) but flipped out over the test.   So she would probably need to do the 300 level test.

 

My 13yo grade 8 student was given the level 500 test (it recommends higher tests) and only got 22 right, so would need easier levels as well.

[scoutingmom]

Oh sigh, deep breath. You want the truth or you want to feel better? The truth is that only a wicked few bright kids are going to go through the RS progression and go into pre-algebra. It was a bunch of hooey. Yes, you very well could have an 8th grader testing into 4th grade math. I think we went from RS D to BJU3. I'm trying to remember, been a long time. It wasn't an exact slide. Like her speed/comfort was BJU2, her skills were BJU4, and we picked BJU3 to make it a build your confidence experience.

 

I would get evals for your oldest, get the SLDs that are remaining diagnosed, and then make a sensible choice.

 

Saxon actually fits some kids, so I'm not going to get into some pissing match about whose math is better. I think the point is get evals, be honest. My ds has SLD math, and Ronit Bird fits him. That's the real back up, things were not clicking option. RB has a book meant for older kids. http://www.ronitbird.com/books/#book2 Also OneStep in the past has posted about curricula online meant for SLD math. 

 

Just as a slide, BJU is very similar to RightStart. The things you liked would be there, and it's good math. I'm not saying your dc will find it a good fit, because I doubt they will. Just saying if you're curious, it's a good slide.

 

I don't think your dc will go well into Lials if they have math SLD. If they didn't, as far as just age, sure it could be an option. Personally, I didn't like the Lial books, but I'm admittedly very picky and toss things for miniscule reasons. 

 

Odds are if you go into a regular, grade leveled math that you're really looking at a 4th or 5th grade text, yes. Have you done a MUS placement test? 

 

You could do Ronit Bird through the summer and go into a grade 7 text in the fall. That would be like a total dream, but you could try. I think you might find you get really bogged down if you spend a lot of time doing reams and reams of computation. If she has SLD math, it might be that less is more. Less computation, more work on problem solving. Not pages of math but a few problems with engagement done very faithfully every day.

 

Come over to LC and gab with heathermomster. She actually taught this age with the same problem.

 

I missed what you're saying about getting Saxon through the library. You'll need the books to use them. Do you have a card with no fines and longer teacher rental so you can keep them? Or you want to try? I would definitely put it on the try list, sure. But supplement it with Ronit Bird. Like do the Saxon placement test, if it's calling to you, place her where it says, but every day do that AND Ronit Bird. I think that could be a really solid plan.

 

Your gut has been on so far. Some kids are going to be tedious, no matter how they're taught. Sure some evals would help. Sure you're in a pickle. But still some kids just flat have SLDs or issues. So the main thing is find another thing that is the next step and be diligent. Me, I'd want evals. But beyond that, go with your gut. If your gut likes how she does with Saxon, just do it and ignore the hordes.

 

Thanks.

 

Well, honestly I want the truth AND to feel better.... but that just isn't going to happen.   I'm feeling pretty lousy right now.  I knew he was 'behind', but everything was going ok.  I didn't expect to get to the end of the program and find out he was 4 or 5 years behind.  1 or 2, yes, I expected that.  It feels so hopeless now - and one of the things he talks about is becoming an astronomer and researching the motion of galaxies and studying black holes.... and that is just so unlikely at this point.  

 

I can't afford testing for LD's.  I'm in Canada, I have no options other than private testing, and that is no where near possible.  I am sure he has dysgraphia and dyslexia.  I am not sure about dyscalculia, other than the difficulty with math facts.  He has always SEEMED to know what was going on...

 

If I move to Saxon I would be buying the books...  but right now I do have access through the library.  I can't be buying a bunch of curriculum to find the right fit.  I already had to tell my dh that the program I bought this year to follow RightStart is not going to work, and that although I had told him that I had everything we were going to need for Elementary math for all the kids... that now I need to change it all.  Finances are a huge issue for us, so this is a big problem.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks.

 

Well, honestly I want the truth AND to feel better.... but that just isn't going to happen.   I'm feeling pretty lousy right now.  I knew he was 'behind', but everything was going ok.  I didn't expect to get to the end of the program and find out he was 4 or 5 years behind.  1 or 2, yes, I expected that.  It feels so hopeless now - and one of the things he talks about is becoming an astronomer and researching the motion of galaxies and studying black holes.... and that is just so unlikely at this point.  

 

I can't afford testing for LD's.  I'm in Canada, I have no options other than private testing, and that is no where near possible.  I am sure he has dysgraphia and dyslexia.  I am not sure about dyscalculia, other than the difficulty with math facts.  He has always SEEMED to know what was going on...

 

If I move to Saxon I would be buying the books...  but right now I do have access through the library.  I can't be buying a bunch of curriculum to find the right fit.  I already had to tell my dh that the program I bought this year to follow RightStart is not going to work, and that although I had told him that I had everything we were going to need for Elementary math for all the kids... that now I need to change it all.  Finances are a huge issue for us, so this is a big problem.

O.k. so assessments are out.  Now you have to find a path to help without that extra knowledge.  Doesn't mean things are hopeless, it just means you are going to have a bit trickier path.  People on the LC board can help.  Just preface posts with evals not being an option at the moment and finances are tight.  

 

1.  If you strongly suspect dyslexia you need to be using a reading/spelling program designed specifically for a dyslexic student to give you the most bang for your buck.  If you can swing the initial cost of each level, Barton Reading and Spelling would be the best option since it is clearly scripted, you can resell levels for nearly the original cost, if you have a student that burns through Level one very quickly it can be exchanged for Level 2 at no additional cost, and it is VERY clearly laid out for a layman to teach their own child instead of having to hire an expensive specialty tutor.  If you can't swing Barton, hop over on the LC board and others can make helpful suggestions.  There ARE options.  Big hugs.

 

2. If you suspect dyscalculia I agree with OhElizabeth, step aside from a standard math program right now, like today, and run them through the Ronit Bird ebooks for a few months to shore up critical basic gaps.  If the Ronit Bird ebooks are not possible, then hop on the LC board for additional suggestions.  CSMP might be an option and it is free but it is far more teacher intensive.

 

3.  If you suspect dysgraphia, there are also many options for helping with accommodations.  This may not be possible to truly remediate but in today's day and age there are SO MANY ways to help.  Again, hop over the LC board.

 

4.  If you are considering starting CLE, here is my recommendation based on what you posted:

• Start the 6 year old in level 200.  Get the flash cards specific to CLE if you can.  Brilliantly done system.  Worth every penny.  Same with the math facts reference chart.
• For your 8 year old I would consider two possible options.  First, you could start her over with Level 300 but skip 301 since that is entirely review of Level 100/200.  Or, since she wasn't that far off from placing into the 400's, start her with 401 (which is reviewing previous concepts from previous levels) but go slowly.  Do ALL of 401, to make sure she is solid.  It is organized as a pretest, then a lesson if needed for each concept.  Reverse that.  Do the lesson first, then give her the pretest to see how she is doing.  Move on when she seems to have a good grasp.  If you think the latter option would be a problem for your 11 year old, you might consider doing the 300's for the 8 year old, though.

I have to go but I will come back to this later this evening.  So sorry.

[Kiara.I]

Well, I gave my kids the CLE placement today...  I gave either the test recommended for their grade, or an easier one.

 

 

Remember to check WHICH parts of the CLE placement tests they didn't pass.

CLE does a good deal of conversion of measurement units, if I remember correctly.  And I don't imagine your children have done much with pints and quarts!

[PeterPan]

My personal opinion is that my ds is never going to do well with computation. We can sit there and spin our wheels doing low level math FOREVER and it's just not going to be a strong point for him. I want him to have enough number sense that he's not screwed in basic business deals in life (checking out at the store, signing a contract, etc.). I don't want to spend any time doing computation exercises that a calculator can do just as well.

 

You might look at Ronit Bird's Overcoming book.

[scoutingmom]

Remember to check WHICH parts of the CLE placement tests they didn't pass.

CLE does a good deal of conversion of measurement units, if I remember correctly. And I don't imagine your children have done much with pints and quarts!

Yes that was a section they didn't do well at lol.... RightStart touches on pints and quarts in level D, but not much.

 

I do plan to go through them again... Some of the sections it made sense.

 

My dh pointed out that my son didn't do any question that would be work to figure out (like the average of 3 numbers)... So it might have been a lower score than it should have been.... It was low enough anyway, but that might be part of it too.

 

 

 

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[scoutingmom]

 

 

O.k. so assessments are out. Now you have to find a path to help without that extra knowledge. Doesn't mean things are hopeless, it just means you are going to have a bit trickier path. People on the LC board can help. Just preface posts with evals not being an option at the moment and finances are tight.

 

1. If you strongly suspect dyslexia you need to be using a reading/spelling program designed specifically for a dyslexic student to give you the most bang for your buck. If you can swing the initial cost of each level, Barton Reading and Spelling would be the best option since it is clearly scripted, you can resell levels for nearly the original cost, if you have a student that burns through Level one very quickly it can be exchanged for Level 2 at no additional cost, and it is VERY clearly laid out for a layman to teach their own child instead of having to hire an expensive specialty tutor. If you can't swing Barton, hop over on the LC board and others can make helpful suggestions. There ARE options. Big hugs.

 

2. If you suspect dyscalculia I agree with OhElizabeth, step aside from a standard math program right now, like today, and run them through the Ronit Bird ebooks for a few months to shore up critical basic gaps. If the Ronit Bird ebooks are not possible, then hop on the LC board for additional suggestions. CSMP might be an option and it is free but it is far more teacher intensive.

 

3. If you suspect dysgraphia, there are also many options for helping with accommodations. This may not be possible to truly remediate but in today's day and age there are SO MANY ways to help. Again, hop over the LC board.

 

4. If you are considering starting CLE, here is my recommendation based on what you posted:

• Start the 6 year old in level 200. Get the flash cards specific to CLE if you can. Brilliantly done system. Worth every penny. Same with the math facts reference chart.
• For your 8 year old I would consider two possible options. First, you could start her over with Level 300 but skip 301 since that is entirely review of Level 100/200. Or, since she wasn't that far off from placing into the 400's, start her with 401 (which is reviewing previous concepts from previous levels) but go slowly. Do ALL of 401, to make sure she is solid. It is organized as a pretest, then a lesson if needed for each concept. Reverse that. Do the lesson first, then give her the pretest to see how she is doing. Move on when she seems to have a good grasp. If you think the latter option would be a problem for your 11 year old, you might consider doing the 300's for the 8 year old, though.

I have to go but I will come back to this later this evening. So sorry.

He is reading 'ok' now and also uses audiobooks. We tried Barton (loaned to me) and it was not going well. I do need to figure out better ways to accommodate the Dysgraphia for high school work.

 

If I decide on CLE (still not sure) then he, I think the 200 level will be good for the 6yo and possibly level 400 for the 8yo or a quick run through 300. The 11yo might be one of those too.... Need to figure out the 13yo.

 

My dh never liked math so he sees things a bit differently than I tend to.

 

 

 

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