Benefit to rhetoric sequence vs. AP Language or AP Language and Lit.?

[Penelope]

Does anyone have any insight for this question?

 

My goal is for my kids to become competent writers for the purposes of college and any future pursuits.

 

When I look at the scope and sequence of AP Language and rhetoric as described in TWTM, I see a lot of overlap. One difference is the focus on teaching with the progymnasmata with the classical sequence, and that it is taken at a slower pace. Also, it is not geared to teaching to a test, which I personally appreciate.

 

But is AP Language for some students the more efficient way to get there? Maybe it is more utilitarian and condensed, but do students get to the same place in the long run? Or maybe there is something deeper that I am missing. I see that in WTMAcademy classes, they do not just work through the texts WTM recommends.

 

An add-on question is whether people who have their kids take AP Language usually also do a literature class to continue with Great Books study. If I still "should" do that, then doing two years of rhetoric plus Lit each year, whether online or at home, might end up being pretty much the same time commitment.

[EndOfOrdinary]

For most that I have heard, AP Language is a check box. It is a way to either get an AP done or it is a way to validate their child's English level. I don't think it is a bad class or even that it does not really help some kids get their ideas out in specific ways. Lots of timed writing has actually helped my Ds (exact opposite of what it did for me in school!).

 

The slower, methodical, classic model definitely has the benefit of providing a much larger, deeper base to of experience. AP's are usually down and dirty, to the point, and very full.

[swimmermom3]

Does anyone have any insight for this question?

 

My goal is for my kids to become competent writers for the purposes of college and any future pursuits.

 

When I look at the scope and sequence of AP Language and rhetoric as described in TWTM, I see a lot of overlap. One difference is the focus on teaching with the progymnasmata with the classical sequence, and that it is taken at a slower pace. Also, it is not geared to teaching to a test, which I personally appreciate.

 

But is AP Language for some students the more efficient way to get there? Maybe it is more utilitarian and condensed, but do students get to the same place in the long run? Or maybe there is something deeper that I am missing. I see that in WTMAcademy classes, they do not just work through the texts WTM recommends.

 

An add-on question is whether people who have their kids take AP Language usually also do a literature class to continue with Great Books study. If I still "should" do that, then doing two years of rhetoric plus Lit each year, whether online or at home, might end up being pretty much the same time commitment.

 

My son took a superb AP English Language class from a gifted teacher and he has no regrets.  Preparing for the exam was a minimal part of the class. Lang. covers essays and nonfiction - think Swift's A Modest Proposal. The students also read Thoreau and Emerson. Rhetoric is studied as well. I added a few works in to correspond with AP European History. For example, he read Hard Times while studying the Industrial Revolution. My son had little patience for the progymnasmata in middle school.

 

[Penelope]

I wonder if a student who does the rhetoric sequence recommended by TWTM or WTMA would be able to self-study for AP Language fairly easily. Rhetoric 3 seems to focus on nonfiction reading selections and uses a rhetoric book which is used by some of the PAHS classes.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Penelope

[EndOfOrdinary]

As far as I can tell, most if the AP classes have significant numbers of study materials avalible to just about any one. It us a major racket. Most publishers are willing to cash in. We have Barron's AP Language and I have found it very well put together. We do portions slowly over time to allow skills to develop. Ds wants to take the exam his nineth grade year (2 years from now), but I am pretty sure that is because timed writing still has him a bit freaked out :). Tenth grade is when I have heard of most taking the Language. Literature in 11 or12 just so that enough time has passed to have read a very large number of the potential selections.

[swimmermom3]

For most that I have heard, AP Language is a check box. It is a way to either get an AP done or it is a way to validate their child's English level. I don't think it is a bad class or even that it does not really help some kids get their ideas out in specific ways. Lots of timed writing has actually helped my Ds (exact opposite of what it did for me in school!).

 

The slower, methodical, classic model definitely has the benefit of providing a much larger, deeper base to of experience. AP's are usually down and dirty, to the point, and very full.

 

I disagree with the part in bold. In my personal opinion and experience (so take that for what it's worth), AP English Language and AP Statistics are not for checking boxes, but for developing critical skills for university studies and life beyond.  If you are just using a prep book and the student has no meaningful feedback from someone who is skilled at analyzing writing, then you are wasting your time unless your student is already a brilliant writer.

 

AP English Language should not be a one and done type of class. Ideally, the student goes into it with a strong grasp of grammar usage and how to write an essay.  The AP class fine tunes those skills, emphasizing the critical thinking behind the writing.

 

My son did take AP Lang as a sophomore on the recommendation from his older brother's friend who had taken a lot of AP classes. She thought that taking it first was helpful for the writing on other AP exams.  This was true for my son, but he did find that the kind of essay writing that will score you a 4 or a 5 on an AP history exam is not necessarily the kind of writing you would turn in for a college course.  The AP U.S. History and AP Euro teacher communities complain about that frequently.

[Penelope]

From my memory of AP Lit - and I would think that the essay writing for that test cannot be that different than it was in the past - that test also is not the kind of writing one would be doing for a college course, at least if we mean papers submitted for a grade. Yet a 5 exempts you from two semesters of freshman comp. in many schools.

 

Yet I do see how these tests are good preparation for timed exams in college humanities courses. In college, my history and English exams were all essay questions. Parts of exams for other courses were as well. There is benefit in being able to construct a cogent argument fairly quickly.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Penelope

[swimmermom3]

From my memory of AP Lit - and I would think that the essay writing for that test cannot be that different than it was in the past - that test also is not the kind of writing one would be doing for a college course, at least if we mean papers submitted for a grade. Yet a 5 exempts you from two semesters of freshman comp. in many schools.

 

Yet I do see how these tests are good preparation for timed exams in college humanities courses. In college, my history and English exams were all essay questions. Parts of exams for other courses were as well. There is benefit in being able to construct a cogent argument fairly quickly.

 

I would double-check the part in bold. A 5 on the Lang. test might get you out of one required writing class, but most universities still require you to take a writing class on campus. A good score on the Lit class may get you out of an introductory literature class, but none of the 8 schools my son was accepted to, allowed a student to get out of a writing  class for a good score on the Literature test.

 

Schools have widely differing policies with regards to AP and IB credits.  Harvard will not give a student credit for AP classes.  However, a good score on an AP exam, say a 5 on the AP Macroeconomics, will place the student into a higher level economics course.  So in my example of Harvard, the student doesn't get any credit; his time spent at Harvard isn't any shorter. He just gets to take more challenging courses.  We found this to be a fairly common practice when we toured the colleges where our son was accepted. 

 

 At Stanford, you do not get credit for AP English Language or AP Literature.

 

Some schools like Beloit College will give a student elective credit towards graduation for some AP classes like English Language, Literature, Macroeconomics, but will not let allow them to be used in place of an introductory class. On the other hand, Stats will give you credit for Math 106 and Chemistry will give you one credit for introductory chemistry and allow you to enroll in the next level class.

 

If you don't know where your student wants to go to school, then really be sure you are taking AP classes or the exams for the right reasons.  AP classes should stretch your student without breaking them.  They should be in areas that are relevant, useful, and of interest to your student.  They are a lot of work to take just to check a box.

Edited March 3, 2017 by swimmermom3

[Penelope]

Yes, there are a lot of universities out there. I have checked a good number that we would be interested in, not Stanford level, but moderately to more selective category, and most looked at the two courses as fulfilling the same freshman English course(s). Some give credit for two semesters, some just one, some place you into a higher level class but you still have to take an English credit. Most that I checked only give credit for either Language or Lit, but not both.

 

It does seem, in general, that the more selective the school, the fewer credits given for AP. But definitely not an absolute correlation.

 

The trouble is that it is not always easy to see what to do or how to approach things when in the beginning of high school, when you aren't certain what schools your student is competitive for, or sometimes even what their area of interest will be. And my general sense is that to be competitive for a certain category of schools, one might need some APs or DE to validate the transcript, and DE is not feasible for everyone. I also think that someone who gets into Stanford or Harvard, or even a tier down from there, is probably not too concerned about how many of their AP credits will transfer.

 

I like what you said about stretching without breaking, challenging, relevant. Good advice. Of course this will vary with the individual student. In a brick and mortar school, AP courses may be the only way for a student to feel adequately challenged. And some of the courses are not going to seem challenging at all, depending on the student.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Penelope

[mirabillis]

My son took a superb AP English Language class from a gifted teacher and he has no regrets.  Preparing for the exam was a minimal part of the class. Lang. covers essays and nonfiction - think Swift's A Modest Proposal. The students also read Thoreau and Emerson. Rhetoric is studied as well. I added a few works in to correspond with AP European History. For example, he read Hard Times while studying the Industrial Revolution. My son had little patience for the progymnasmata in middle school.

 

 

May I ask where/and with whom you took AP Eng Lang?

And AP Eng Lit (if you took it)?

[swimmermom3]

May I ask where/and with whom you took AP Eng Lang?

And AP Eng Lit (if you took it)?

 

My son took AP English Language with Maya Inspektor online with Pennsylvania Homeschoolers. Maya is one of the most gifted teachers we have ever encountered. The feedback she gives her students is extensive  and detailed. It is hands down the best money we ever spent in high school and the payoff has been terrific.  My son thought so highly of her class and his fellow students that he chose to take AP English Literature from Maya the following year. He is not a reader and this is the one AP class I would have said was not in the "relevant" category for him, but he was adamant about working with Mrs. Inspektor one more year. I've heard nothing but good things about all the AP English Language classes from PA Homeschoolers.

 

I also have to put in my plug for their AP Statistics class. It's my personal opinion that all high school students, especially the college-bound should have statistical literacy and that class is also excellent.

[madteaparty]

My son took AP English Language with Maya Inspektor online with Pennsylvania Homeschoolers. Maya is one of the most gifted teachers we have ever encountered. The feedback she gives her students is extensive and detailed. It is hands down the best money we ever spent in high school and the payoff has been terrific. My son thought so highly of her class and his fellow students that he chose to take AP English Literature from Maya the following year. He is not a reader and this is the one AP class I would have said was not in the "relevant" category for him, but he was adamant about working with Mrs. Inspektor one more year. I've heard nothing but good things about all the AP English Language classes from PA Homeschoolers.

 

I also have to put in my plug for their AP Statistics class. It's my personal opinion that all high school students, especially the college-bound should have statistical literacy and that class is also excellent.

If the choice was between this AP class (thanks for the review!) and the equivalent of English 101 class at a liberal arts college, what would you pick, you think?

[cuckoomamma]

I'm not swimmermom but my dd is taking Lang with Maya and also really enjoys her class.  And like swimmermom's son, she has elected to take AP Lit next year with her as well as an extra writing workshop over the summer.  She doesn't particularly like writing, either!  She just feels that Maya's class is really worthwhile.  

 

My dd already writes better than I ever did :) and I took English 101 at a LAC and had great grades in hs.  Not knowing the professor at the hypothetical LAC, I'd definitely choose Maya's class.  

 

Like many have already said, you need to identify why you're choosing each class to know if it's the right fit.  While college credit would be great, that's not the primary reason why dd is taking it.

 

 

 

 

[Mom22ns]

I disagree with the part in bold. In my personal opinion and experience (so take that for what it's worth), AP English Language and AP Statistics are not for checking boxes, but for developing critical skills for university studies and life beyond.  If you are just using a prep book and the student has no meaningful feedback from someone who is skilled at analyzing writing, then you are wasting your time unless your student is already a brilliant writer.

 

This was the reason we did AP Language. Ds was a wonderful writer, but I couldn't take him farther. He needed a really gifted teacher, and Maya Inspektor filled that role beautifully! There was no box that needed checking. We weren't trying to accumulate AP's and he is a writing major, so it wasn't like the would take fewer writing classes in college because of it. AP Language sharpened his skills, helped him speed up his writing, and taught him to work to someone else's expectations. I don't think anything else we did in high school helped him more in college. 

 

AP English does include literature studies. The course we used did mostly non-fiction readings, but also did 4 novels (2 fiction, 2 non-fiction). The year was his lightest on literature, but his heaviest on writing. 

 

I can't compare the course to Rhetoric, because we didn't take that route. I would expect that either, if taught by an excellent teacher, would leave the student very prepared for college writing. 

 

ETA We did choose between the AP and English at the small liberal arts college he now attends and have no regrets. Maya had a whole year with him. I don't think a 1 semester class in college would have come close.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Momto2Ns

[swimmermom3]

If the choice was between this AP class (thanks for the review!) and the equivalent of English 101 class at a liberal arts college, what would you pick, you think?

 

My son is currently taking Wrtg 106 at his university.  This is a writing class for students who scored a 4/5 on the AP English Language exam.  Ds likes the professor and says she has worked with him to move out of his stylistic comfort zone, but he still thinks Mrs. Inspektor is the best writing instructor he has ever had.

 

Based on that info, it's difficult to choose. If ds knew he was going to get someone of Mrs. Inspektor's caliber again, he'd take that AP English Language class in a heartbeat.  Given the choice between the usual AP English Language class at the public high school and an English 101 class at a good LAC, he'd probably go with the LAC class, because he never wants to do what everyone else is doing.  :tongue_smilie: He could have taken that at our CC or at the state university downtown, but I highly doubt the class would have been of the same caliber as the PAHS class.

 

You really need to do your research as to how the colleges your student is looking at handle transfer classes and AP credits with regards to writing.  Colleges have struggled for years with the problem of freshmen not being able to write a basic college paper. The answer to this instructional time-sucking dilemma is to have freshman "seminar" classes. Here, smaller groups of freshmen research and write about a topic of their professor's choice. In the course of the seminar, the students learn what research and writing resources are available at the school. In addition, students may still have to take an a writing class.

 

[swimmermom3]

I'm not swimmermom but my dd is taking Lang with Maya and also really enjoys her class.  And like swimmermom's son, she has elected to take AP Lit next year with her as well as an extra writing workshop over the summer.  She doesn't particularly like writing, either!  She just feels that Maya's class is really worthwhile.  

 

My dd already writes better than I ever did :) and I took English 101 at a LAC and had great grades in hs.  Not knowing the professor at the hypothetical LAC, I'd definitely choose Maya's class.  

 

Like many have already said, you need to identify why you're choosing each class to know if it's the right fit.  While college credit would be great, that's not the primary reason why dd is taking it.

 

Your dd is so lucky! Are they back to doing the National Peace essay contest? That paper was actually the turning point for my son. Prior to taking Maya's class, we thought the focus was going to be on economics as a major.  Ds was completely fascinated with the essay contest topic of security sector reform and now that's part of his major.

 

If your dd takes both of Maya's classes, she will be well-prepared for writing papers in college.

 

[swimmermom3]

Does anyone have any insight for this question?

 

My goal is for my kids to become competent writers for the purposes of college and any future pursuits.

 

When I look at the scope and sequence of AP Language and rhetoric as described in TWTM, I see a lot of overlap. One difference is the focus on teaching with the progymnasmata with the classical sequence, and that it is taken at a slower pace. Also, it is not geared to teaching to a test, which I personally appreciate.

 

But is AP Language for some students the more efficient way to get there? Maybe it is more utilitarian and condensed, but do students get to the same place in the long run? Or maybe there is something deeper that I am missing. I see that in WTMAcademy classes, they do not just work through the texts WTM recommends.

 

An add-on question is whether people who have their kids take AP Language usually also do a literature class to continue with Great Books study. If I still "should" do that, then doing two years of rhetoric plus Lit each year, whether online or at home, might end up being pretty much the same time commitment.

 

Penelope, did you get your question answered?

 

I have the 3rd ed. of TWTM, so I don't know if the Rhetoric stage suggestions have been updated. My copy utilizes the following curricula:

 

A Rulebook for Arguments (we used it in 9th grade, easy to implement)

The New Oxford Guide to Writing by Kane

Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (Corbett)

 

There is definitely overlap. In hindsight, I think as homeschoolers, we tend to go for the overkill on our English courses and we tend to take more time than is really needed.

 

What is your student like? Good speller? Solid grasp of grammar?  Is your child exposed to a lot of good writing? Does the student enjoy writing?  What do you envision you role being in the student's Language and Comp. education?

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Not all AP classes are just "teaching to the test." 

 

The more AP classes my daughter takes, the more and more bewildering I find the "AP = teaching to the test" sentiment. 

 

To answer the OP's question, my daughter started the rhetoric series with WTMA, then switched to the AP path with PAHS. It's been a much better fit for her.

 

Both are solid paths. Student strengths, personality, preferences etc are good guides when deciding. (Alliteration alert! ;) )

 

[Penelope]

Penelope, did you get your question answered?

 

I have the 3rd ed. of TWTM, so I don't know if the Rhetoric stage suggestions have been updated. My copy utilizes the following curricula:

 

A Rulebook for Arguments (we used it in 9th grade, easy to implement)

The New Oxford Guide to Writing by Kane

Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (Corbett)

 

There is definitely overlap. In hindsight, I think as homeschoolers, we tend to go for the overkill on our English courses and we tend to take more time than is really needed.

 

What is your student like? Good speller? Solid grasp of grammar? Is your child exposed to a lot of good writing? Does the student enjoy writing? What do you envision you role being in the student's Language and Comp. education?

 

 

Thanks for checking in with the thread again.

 

I believe the fourth edition of WTM has the same recommendation. The academy uses a slightly different sequence of texts, and then it seems they flesh it out more, and stretch to three years rather than two. And then MP and WHA and others do things differently still. WHA has two Rhetoric courses, Roman Roads just one, and Memoria does just one but has separate composition courses as well. It's having so many years of extra courses for composition that is throwing me.

 

I have all the books mentioned. I really like the Kane book. To me, it seems like a good writing manual, familiar, nothing particularly screams "classical" about it (to me). I have really liked the idea of the rhetoric sequence, and so far we have had success with WTM writing recommendations. I think my student is a good writer for his age/grade, but of course there is a lot of room for growth. I feel like I just can't "see" what the ultimate benefit is of doing all of the extra writing courses vs. not. Overkill-that is exactly what I am worried about, especially when there will be AP/DE maths and sciences etc. in the schedule. But maybe the AP course will take about the same amount of time as writing plus literature, since it is more intense. It is hard to know how much time all the outside courses will require. I had thought I would have my kids take one of the AP English courses in high school either way, unless they would strongly prefer not to.

 

I could use the Kane book and They Say, I Say at home for a year as a homegrown rhetoric course, while continuing to write in other courses, and then do AP Language in 11th. I'm looking at the AP Language prep books and am thinking he'd have a better chance at a 5 if we wait a year, and, while he will learn a lot no matter what year it's taken, and it's certainly not all about the score, things are what they are and the score does matter. But I really thought I wasn't going to be the writing teacher next year, sigh. I'd like to be writing support when he asks for my opinion, and only occasionally be the coach. I really want a course with detailed, specific, feedback, because that is what he needs at this stage. I almost wish there were a teacher/course that I knew for sure would offer that, without necessarily being AP.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Penelope

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I could use the Kane book and They Say, I Say at home for a year as a homegrown rhetoric course, while continuing to write in other courses, and then do AP Language in 11th. I'm looking at the AP Language prep books and am thinking he'd have a better chance at a 5 if we wait a year, and, while he will learn a lot no matter what year it's taken, and it's certainly not all about the score, things are what they are and the score does matter.

 

This is a good point. Even beyond the scores, the more maturity the student brings to the table, the more benefit there will be. Teens develop at different rates -- often asynchronously. Sometimes it's not just a matter of when could the student get a good grade in the class, but when could the student benefit the most. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 But I really thought I wasn't going to be the writing teacher next year, sigh. I'd like to be writing support when he asks for my opinion, and only occasionally be the coach. I really want a course with detailed, specific, feedback, because that is what he needs at this stage. I almost wish there were a teacher/course that I knew for sure would offer that, without necessarily being AP.

 

Have you looked into Brave Writer? No personal experience, but it's mentioned often.

 

Or Cindy ???? (I can't remember her last name and the first might be incorrect...  :tongue_smilie: ) She offers a service on a per word basis (I think). It's my understanding she gives detailed feedback. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Found it!

 

Cindy Marsch

 

https://www.writingassessment.com/

[cuckoomamma]

Just jumping back in to answer swimmermom's question about AP Lang with Maya Inspektor - yes, they entered the AFSA Contest, which I believe is what the National Peace essay contest became.  It's been an amazing experience and so far beyond what I expected from an English class.  

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Thanks for checking in with the thread again.

 

I believe the fourth edition of WTM has the same recommendation. The academy uses a slightly different sequence of texts, and then it seems they flesh it out more, and stretch to three years rather than two. And then MP and WHA and others do things differently still. WHA has two Rhetoric courses, Roman Roads just one, and Memoria does just one but has separate composition courses as well. It's having so many years of extra courses for composition that is throwing me.

 

I have all the books mentioned. I really like the Kane book. To me, it seems like a good writing manual, familiar, nothing particularly screams "classical" about it (to me). I have really liked the idea of the rhetoric sequence, and so far we have had success with WTM writing recommendations. I think my student is a good writer for his age/grade, but of course there is a lot of room for growth. I feel like I just can't "see" what the ultimate benefit is of doing all of the extra writing courses vs. not. Overkill-that is exactly what I am worried about, especially when there will be AP/DE maths and sciences etc. in the schedule. But maybe the AP course will take about the same amount of time as writing plus literature, since it is more intense. It is hard to know how much time all the outside courses will require. I had thought I would have my kids take one of the AP English courses in high school either way, unless they would strongly prefer not to.

 

I could use the Kane book and They Say, I Say at home for a year as a homegrown rhetoric course, while continuing to write in other courses, and then do AP Language in 11th. I'm looking at the AP Language prep books and am thinking he'd have a better chance at a 5 if we wait a year, and, while he will learn a lot no matter what year it's taken, and it's certainly not all about the score, things are what they are and the score does matter. But I really thought I wasn't going to be the writing teacher next year, sigh. I'd like to be writing support when he asks for my opinion, and only occasionally be the coach. I really want a course with detailed, specific, feedback, because that is what he needs at this stage. I almost wish there were a teacher/course that I knew for sure would offer that, without necessarily being AP.

 

Lots of good things to respond to here and I will when I am a little less tired in the morning. Overkill is really an issue on English in general in the high school years. Actual writing instruction doesn't need to take a huge chunk of time and writing across disciplines is far more relevant than assigning papers that are connected to nothing.