DS wants to stop Latin

[tmstranger]

My 13yo 7th grader is really disliking Latin this year.  This is his 3rd year.  In year 1 (5th grade), we did LFC primer A.  In year 2, we did FFL, and this year, we're doing SFL. 

 

This year, he also started taking Spanish at a local tutorial.  He much prefers the Spanish and does not want to keep learning a language "that no one speaks."

 

I know that Latin is important for many reasons, but how long should I keep pushing him to do this?  Any suggestions? 

[mama25angels]

I would allow him to quit.

[forty-two]

What are your Latin goals? How much further were you planning to go? And were your goals Latin-specific (read Latin texts, for example), or would any intensive grammar study of a similarly-structured language do? I'd be more likely to keep on if my goals would be met sooner rather than later, and/or if my goals were Latin-specific, than if my goals were more "because Latin's good for you" (as a lot of things are good for us, more than we can do) or more foreign language-centered than Latin-centered.

 

Also, is there anything you can do to alleviate some of your ds's dislike while still doing Latin? In your shoes, before giving up, I'd try to add in some Latin reading (not to translate, but to read, like you'd read your native language) - help Latin to feel more like an actual *language*, something real people used to communicate real things. Lingua Latina was a huge help for me in moving from Latin-as-puzzle to Latin-as-language, and the storyline's fun. The Cambridge Latin Course also has fun stories, and old editions of the texts were cheap to buy used online. Also, there's " I Speak Latin", which (as the name says) does a lot of learning through speaking Latin; there's also a few conversational Latin books out there, and some online Latin learning communities that post in Latin.

 

And Memoria Press's Lingua Angelica - Latin church songs - reinforces that Latin was the language of the Church for a very, very long time, and is still alive and in use. Idk that I'd go for the whole translate-all-the-songs package, but we have the CD and the songbook, and I like to sing them - we sing many of them (in English) as part of the liturgy. And many of our confessional documents and older liturgies are in Latin, and some people are using them today. I'm interested in Latin because it's a major theological language, there are so many things written in Latin that haven't been translated - it's part of *my* past, kwim?

 

Any of that help?

[tmstranger]

What are your Latin goals? How much further were you planning to go? And were your goals Latin-specific (read Latin texts, for example), or would any intensive grammar study of a similarly-structured language do? I'd be more likely to keep on if my goals would be met sooner rather than later, and/or if my goals were Latin-specific, than if my goals were more "because Latin's good for you" (as a lot of things are good for us, more than we can do) or more foreign language-centered than Latin-centered.

 

Also, is there anything you can do to alleviate some of your ds's dislike while still doing Latin? In your shoes, before giving up, I'd try to add in some Latin reading (not to translate, but to read, like you'd read your native language) - help Latin to feel more like an actual *language*, something real people used to communicate real things. Lingua Latina was a huge help for me in moving from Latin-as-puzzle to Latin-as-language, and the storyline's fun. The Cambridge Latin Course also has fun stories, and old editions of the texts were cheap to buy used online. Also, there's " I Speak Latin", which (as the name says) does a lot of learning through speaking Latin; there's also a few conversational Latin books out there, and some online Latin learning communities that post in Latin.

 

And Memoria Press's Lingua Angelica - Latin church songs - reinforces that Latin was the language of the Church for a very, very long time, and is still alive and in use. Idk that I'd go for the whole translate-all-the-songs package, but we have the CD and the songbook, and I like to sing them - we sing many of them (in English) as part of the liturgy. And many of our confessional documents and older liturgies are in Latin, and some people are using them today. I'm interested in Latin because it's a major theological language, there are so many things written in Latin that haven't been translated - it's part of *my* past, kwim?

 

Any of that help?

 

I love this...thank you for your detailed response...

 

My goals have been tweaked over the past couple of years, honestly.  Initially, I naively wanted him to go through high school.  Then, just get through Fourth Form Latin and maybe by then, he'll want to go further anyway.  Lately, I've just been thinking to get him through middle school...8th grade, so one more year.

 

I do wonder if there is something I can do to make Latin more engaging.  I like your suggestions and I'll look into those.  

 

I'm really torn because I know that dropping Latin will open up time in our day for other studies, but I also know that Latin can be so beneficial. 

[Bluegoat]

So - really, there is only one real reason to learn Latin that can't be fulfilled by other approaches, and that is, you need to learn Latin to read Latin.

 

And learning Latin without actually reading it is boring for almost everyone.  This, to my mind, may be the biggest reason to avoid starting Latin too early - for a lot of kids, it will mean a long time doing the difficult boring work without any payoff.  Really, you son is just getting to where he might start reading some texts.

 

I would, as forty-two suggests, try and find some things for him to actually read, or even learn to sing.  Maybe try finding something like a Latin mass to attend, or find some silly student-written Latin poetry.  Or things like translations of kids books into Latin.  At that age, I would try and get him on board with this - say that before dropping it, you would like him to try actually doing Latin, rather than just studying grammar and vocab.

 

If he really balks, I might let him go with Spanish - you can use the Latin time to really get to work on that.  I tend to think a well-learned modern language is a better choice than Latin that never goes anywhere.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Bluegoat

[EndOfOrdinary]

We have a primary language and then secondary language(s) in our house. These shift from year to year as interests go up and down. If he is more interested in Spanish, then that can shift into primary language studies. He studues it for twice as long, or more frequently, or more rigorously, or does more fun outside stuff with it, but he doesn't drop Latin. He just does not have to focus on Latin.

 

I would tell him that Latin lasts through 4th Form. When he is done with it, he can be done. If he wants to make Spanish primary, it might take longer in Latin, but be more enjoyable. If he wants to continue, he can get more done while doing the Spanish less. Those languages paralell so well that you can also study them side by side really easily.

 

Let him choose.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I have been trying to decide about letting my 5th grader quit. We are about 1/4 through GSWL. We are much farther ahead with Spanish. Now I am questioning why bother with Latin right now when my time is limited and I'd rather spend more time on Spanish anyway.

[tmstranger]

So - really, there is only one real reason to learn Latin that can't be fulfilled by other approaches, and that is, you need to learn Latin to read Latin.

 

And learning Latin without actually reading it is boring for almost everyone.  This, to my mind, may be the biggest reason to avoid starting Latin too early - for a lot of kids, it will mean a long time doing the difficult boring work without any payoff.  Really, you son is just getting to where he might start reading some texts.

 

I would, as forty-two suggests, try and find some things for him to actually read, or even learn to sing.  Maybe try finding something like a Latin mass to attend, or find some silly student-written Latin poetry.  Or things like translations of kids books into Latin.  At that age, I would try and get him on board with this - say that before dropping it, you would like him to try actually doing Latin, rather than just studying grammar and vocab.

 

If he really balks, I might let him go with Spanish - you can use the Latin time to really get to work on that.  I tend to think a well-learned modern language is a better choice than Latin that never goes anywhere.

 

Thanks.  We had a little chat about it today as he was doing his Latin work.  He said it's hard and Spanish is so much easier.  I said, "that's because you've had 3 years of Latin! LOL!"  I tried to explain that learning Latin first would benefit him in the other language.  I am going to look into the resources mentioned and look for something for him to read. 

 

 

We have a primary language and then secondary language(s) in our house. These shift from year to year as interests go up and down. If he is more interested in Spanish, then that can shift into primary language studies. He studues it for twice as long, or more frequently, or more rigorously, or does more fun outside stuff with it, but he doesn't drop Latin. He just does not have to focus on Latin.

 

I would tell him that Latin lasts through 4th Form. When he is done with it, he can be done. If he wants to make Spanish primary, it might take longer in Latin, but be more enjoyable. If he wants to continue, he can get more done while doing the Spanish less. Those languages paralell so well that you can also study them side by side really easily.

 

Let him choose.

 

I've asked him to get through 2nd form and then we'll talk at the end of the school year.  We do Latin slowly and try to make sure he has plenty of practice and time to do the worksheets, but I get that it is boring.  He takes Spanish with a tutorial, so I'm sure it's more interesting and it's going to win every time.  I do like the idea of do Latin less often, though, and just getting through it at his own timeframe without ever fully dropping it.  That's a great idea!

[tmstranger]

I've been looking at Cambridge Latin now on Rainbow Resources. I really like what I see and I do think it will fit what he's looking for more.  There are so many different components, though!  I don't need tests.  He gets plenty of that with SFL! What other pieces do you think I'd need?  I'm thinking that I'll either pause SFL and let him play with this for a bit and then maybe work some schedule where he alternates the two methods. 

 

Workbook? TM? Student Book?  (Is that the reader?)  Amazon has some pieces cheaper, but I wonder if I'll end up different editions, so I'm wary of that...

 

Before I order any of it, I'm going to wait a bit and let him look it over, too.  I don't want to waste a bunch of $$!

[Runningmom80]

My ds is younger, but I let him switch to Spanish. I really buy into the whole "you need to be invested in what you are learning" idea and I'm already making him do math which he is not invested in so I let him switch. I think at a certain point Latin is for the kids who are invested in it and the ones who aren't shouldn't be forced to continue. (I love language so I would be one of invested.) I think it's valid to not see the value of a dead language.

 

ETA: just saw your follow up, disregard my ramblings!

Edited February 18, 2017 by Runningmom80

[forty-two]

I've been looking at Cambridge Latin now on Rainbow Resources. I really like what I see and I do think it will fit what he's looking for more.  There are so many different components, though!  I don't need tests.  He gets plenty of that with SFL! What other pieces do you think I'd need?  I'm thinking that I'll either pause SFL and let him play with this for a bit and then maybe work some schedule where he alternates the two methods. 

 

Workbook? TM? Student Book?  (Is that the reader?)  Amazon has some pieces cheaper, but I wonder if I'll end up different editions, so I'm wary of that...

 

Before I order any of it, I'm going to wait a bit and let him look it over, too.  I don't want to waste a bunch of $$!

 

Yes, the student book looks like it's the one with the stories, along with some grammar instruction.  As for what to get in addition to the student book, I suppose it depends on whether you want to use it as a reading supplement, or as a full-fledged second program.  For just reading, you can get just the student books (that's all I have), and that way you could get the cheaper 4th edition used (and amazon, at least, is still selling new 4th edition materials).  (I have the old third editions, as the 4th edition was the current one when I bought mine; but they released a 5th edition in 2015.)  Personally I'd start out with cheap 4th edition student books for Units 1 and 2 - you could get them both for under $15 with shipping, I think.  And if you then wanted to get workbooks and such, they are still being sold. 

 

The one thing you might want even if you just do reading is the audio CDs of the stories - amazon is selling 4th edition CDs, and the CLC audio is supposed to be very good - dramatized with voice actors, not just a dry reading. 

[SarahW]

Cambridge Latin is still free online till the end of the month, if you want to get a full preview.

[tmstranger]

Yes, the student book looks like it's the one with the stories, along with some grammar instruction.  As for what to get in addition to the student book, I suppose it depends on whether you want to use it as a reading supplement, or as a full-fledged second program.  For just reading, you can get just the student books (that's all I have), and that way you could get the cheaper 4th edition used (and amazon, at least, is still selling new 4th edition materials).  (I have the old third editions, as the 4th edition was the current one when I bought mine; but they released a 5th edition in 2015.)  Personally I'd start out with cheap 4th edition student books for Units 1 and 2 - you could get them both for under $15 with shipping, I think.  And if you then wanted to get workbooks and such, they are still being sold. 

 

The one thing you might want even if you just do reading is the audio CDs of the stories - amazon is selling 4th edition CDs, and the CLC audio is supposed to be very good - dramatized with voice actors, not just a dry reading. 

 

Good idea about the audio CDs!

[tmstranger]

Cambridge Latin is still free online till the end of the month, if you want to get a full preview.

 

I kept trying to figure out that website!  I didn't realize it was all free stuff! Thank you for encouraging me to figure out what it was all about!