Latin Translation Question

[Reefgazer]

Oh, Latin is getting way more difficult.  We are in Third form Latin and I have a question about imperatives.  I  was wondering if anyone here would know the answer.   

 

Memoria Press translates this phrase, 'Terre semper lupos malos" as "Always frighten bad wolves".

 

But then they translate "Mane saepe in horo" as "Stay in the garden often".  Why would this second translation not be "Always frighten the bad wolves"?

[Critterfixer]

Both translations would be correct. Because there are no articles in Latin, they get added in translation as needed.

[Reefgazer]

Yeah, the article thing makes sense, but I was wondering about the positioning  of the words "always" and "often".  The positioning is different in the second sentence, and changes the meaning of the sentence.

Both translations would be correct. Because there are no articles in Latin, they get added in translation as needed.

 

[forty-two]

Are you asking why the second is "Stay in the garden often" while the first is "Always frighten bad wolves" - why the different adverb placement in English when the Latin had the adverbs in the same place?

 

English adverbs are pretty movable iirc:

"Always frighten bad wolves," "Frighten always bad wolves," and "Frighten bad wolves always."

"Often stay in the garden," "Stay often in the garden," and "Stay in the garden often."

=>All those would be possibilities.

 

My best guess is that they picked the most "normal" sounding of the possible English choices - the one that sounds the most natural to a native speaker's ear (assuming that the Latin adverb placement was also the most "usual" placement - so if there was no special emphasis in Latin, you are trying to also have no special emphasis in English; if there *is* a special emphasis in the Latin, then you want to try to replicate that special emphasis, as much as possible, in the English translation).  "Always frighten bad wolves" is to me the most natural-sounding of the choices for the first sentence, and "Stay in the garden often" does sound more natural to me than "often stay in the garden" - that second wording seems like an awkward sort of command.  But I think it's more a matter of style than just grammatical correctness - picking the best of the possible grammatically correct choices.

 

IDK, that help any?

[Critterfixer]

The translation guide at the front of the Third Form Book does state that adverb location is variable. 

As far at the imperative goes, I would say that in the second sentence, 

"(You) stay in the garden often" makes more sense than "(You) often stay in the garden" which feels rather indicative to me. Often isn't just a word that I'd think of as belonging in a command sentence at all, but if I used it, I would put it in a position where it would have as little impact as possible, just because of the mood of the sentence.

Always is such a strong word, it could probably go anywhere and not change the impact. My guess is that the translation of the more weakly imperative often is impacted by the fact that the verb is in imperative form. But I could be wrong about that.

[Reefgazer]

Yes, the bolded is what I was asking, and this helps.  I was wondering why "always" modifies the imperative "frighten" in the first sentence, but in the second sentence, despite "saepe" being in the same position in the sentence, the sentence is worded differently.  So either placement of the adverb would be technically correct?

Are you asking why the second is "Stay in the garden often" while the first is "Always frighten bad wolves" - why the different adverb placement in English when the Latin had the adverbs in the same place?

 

English adverbs are pretty movable iirc:

"Always frighten bad wolves," "Frighten always bad wolves," and "Frighten bad wolves always."

"Often stay in the garden," "Stay often in the garden," and "Stay in the garden often."

=>All those would be possibilities.

 

My best guess is that they picked the most "normal" sounding of the possible English choices - the one that sounds the most natural to a native speaker's ear (assuming that the Latin adverb placement was also the most "usual" placement - so if there was no special emphasis in Latin, you are trying to also have no special emphasis in English; if there *is* a special emphasis in the Latin, then you want to try to replicate that special emphasis, as much as possible, in the English translation).  "Always frighten bad wolves" is to me the most natural-sounding of the choices for the first sentence, and "Stay in the garden often" does sound more natural to me than "often stay in the garden" - that second wording seems like an awkward sort of command.  But I think it's more a matter of style than just grammatical correctness - picking the best of the possible grammatically correct choices.

 

IDK, that help any?

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

OK, this makes sense.  MP sometimes has such weird translation sentences that it's difficult to know what is a "normal" sounding sentence.

The translation guide at the front of the Third Form Book does state that adverb location is variable. 

As far at the imperative goes, I would say that in the second sentence, 

"(You) stay in the garden often" makes more sense than "(You) often stay in the garden" which feels rather indicative to me. Often isn't just a word that I'd think of as belonging in a command sentence at all, but if I used it, I would put it in a position where it would have as little impact as possible, just because of the mood of the sentence.

Always is such a strong word, it could probably go anywhere and not change the impact. My guess is that the translation of the more weakly imperative often is impacted by the fact that the verb is in imperative form. But I could be wrong about that.

 

Yes, the bolded is what I was asking, and this helps.  I was wondering why "always" modifies the imperative "frighten" in the first sentence, but in the second sentence, despite "saepe" being in the same position in the sentence, the sentence is worded differently.  So either placement of the adverb would be technically correct?

 

Not that diagramming is the be-all and end-all of grammar instruction, but note that if you diagrammed these English sentences, the adverb would be in the same place relative to the verb, no matter where it lands in the English sentence.

[2_girls_mommy]

This is when I start telling my kids that the answers arean't always going to be the exact same as in the book or to each others. As long as they are grammatically correct and make sense that a lot of translation, especially out of context as in these random sentences and not from a story with some context, are going to be up to what they think sounds best. The kids may think that an article sounds better. Some may not feel it needs it. The article they add can be "a" or "the" which in English does change the meaning a bit. Look at different translations of any ancient text and you will see that the translators come up with different sounding sentences which in essence mean the same thing.