AOPS Geometry with slow-moving DS

[caayenne]

My DS14, who is in ninth grade this year, has been doing AOPS (books only) since 6th grade. He has completed Pre-A and Introduction to Algebra (all chapters, all problems, most challenge problems). AOPS has always been challenging for him, not because he couldn't solve the problems but because he is a slow worker. He calculates very fast but works and writes very slowly. Since we weren't dealing with high school until this year, I didn't really have a problem with him working slowly, even if it meant that a Review section would take 4 or more days. But now that he is in ninth grade, where his credits count, and his workload in general is really picking up, the slow pace is starting to be more of a concern.  I have been trying to count the Review sections as chapter tests, where I don't help him with the problems at all, and he gets a grade. This worked okay for the first couple of chapters, but he has been working on the Chapter 3 Review/test this week, and after three very long days, he still has 15 problems to go. Yesterday he accomplished virtually nothing, and today was only marginally better. He said that he couldn't focus at all, no matter how hard he tried. He does have a lot of trouble with visual-spatial stuff in general, and he has said many times that he doesn't think in pictures at all, so I was expecting Geometry to be a bear, but not to this level.

 

So it might seem like an obvious solution to just ditch AOPS and do something easier, but I'm not sure that's the answer. He is capable of major focus if the subject is something interesting to him. He is a competitive chess player, and he studies his chess books and analyzes positions on the chess board constantly. More than anything, he has been saying that he just doesn't feel up to working so hard on something this difficult. In his words, we should "just get an easy Geometry program". What bothers me about this more than anything is that he has admitted that he doesn't like hard work in general, and in many ways, AOPS has been a perfect program to work on this issue. My DH and I feel very strongly that challenging yourself to work hard at difficult things is an important life skill, and we don't want to reinforce the natural tendency to quit things when they are hard or not personally interesting.

 

I have already decided that he does not need to do the Challenge problems for this specific book. The regular problems are plenty challenging enough to call this an honors course. I guess my question is, how much scaffolding can I do with this program and still give him full high school credit. Do I need to have chapter tests or is it possible to just give a comprehensive final at the end? Is it appropriate to give him honors credit if he takes extra time to complete the course? Right now, I think we are looking at going into the summer for sure, but he actually completed the first two chapters this summer, so over the past four weeks he has only completed one chapter, and that is with doing math almost every day.

 

I welcome all advice, commiseration, and hugs. I am not sure what to do, and I am hoping that some of you with more experience can help me figure out which direction to go.

[Arcadia]

. He does have a lot of trouble with visual-spatial stuff in general, and he has said many times that he doesn't think in pictures at all, so I was expecting Geometry to be a bear, but not to this level

How bad is his visual spatial stuff.

 

My hubby plays chess well but he is seriously visual spatial challenge. He nearly failed engineering graphics year 1 and he has huge trouble assembling IKEA furniture due to not understanding the instructions. He is an electrical engineering. So regardless how industrious and fantastic my hubby's study ethic is, a book like Holt Geometry is great for an A while he ran away from our kids AoPS intro to geometry textbook.

 

Both my kids had finished the AoPS geometry book. My slower at reading and writing kid took about twice the time per day as my other kid because he was also walking around instead of being glue to the seat. However their visual spatial ability are about equal,

 

I can't tell you whether you should,continue with the AoPS geometry book or switch to another geometry book. I can tell you though that the AoPS Intermediate Algebra book would also build grit and resilience.

 

Also his workload ramp up, could tiredness be contributing to his slowness? I would really sit next to him and see what the issues are. For example, my older kid would glance at the kitchen when hungry, would catch a nap at the study table if tired. When he feels stuck he would be twirling his pencil or tapping his pencil on his scrap paper. If he is really struggling due to visual spatial issues, you and your spouse has to decide if it is worth the struggle.

 

I don't know about high school credits so I can't answer that.

[OneStepAtATime]

How much effort is he putting in overall in all of his classes?  Are all of his courses as intense as the math program he is using?  Is it possible he is overloaded?  Getting burnt out?  

 

You say he has always worked slowly through math.  How much time is he spending on math each day?  Is he supposed to work for a specified time or does he work until he has completed a set number of problems or does he work until he decides to stop or ...?

 

Working that slowly may not mean he doesn't have tenacity and grit and the ability to work through hard stuff but that this really is quite challenging for him and he may be feeling a bit overwhelmed or burnt out or just plain mentally tired.  He may need a mental math break.  That doesn't mean he is "quitting" as in being a quitter as in being lazy.  Sometimes we all need a mental break.  Getting that break can be a lot healthier than slogging through at a slower and slower pace until we are completely burned out.

 

If slowly slogging through a very intense and challenging Geometry program at a snails pace is going to end up with him hating Geometry and getting really behind in math and driving you both nuts, I'm not sure it is worth it to continue with this particular program.  Not all subjects have to teach someone about grit and tenacity.  Sometimes it can be an important lesson to teach a student that if something isn't working terribly well then flexibility and a willingness to try something new might work better.  I am not saying you should drop this math program, but I am saying to carefully examine whether he is actually getting much out of it at this point.  You might just look at switching him to a different program temporarily just to see if he gains more out of it than slogging through this one.

 

On the flip side of that coin, if he is really getting a lot out of the program then I would sit right next to him and try to figure out why it takes so incredibly long for him.  Would it help if you scribed for him?  Or he used one of the specialized math typing programs and could type much of what he is doing?  Is it the writing itself since you say his computation is quick?

 

I would also carefully examine his workload overall and how many things he is doing that really inspire him.  Are there subjects that he really genuinely enjoys?  And how many subjects are quite intense/challenging and how many are not.  I am not saying make them all easy or even most of them or even any of them.  I am saying make sure there is balance.

 

:grouphug:   And good luck.

Edited September 16, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[caayenne]

How bad is his visual spatial stuff.

 

My hubby plays chess well but he is seriously visual spatial challenge. He nearly failed engineering graphics year 1 and he has huge trouble assembling IKEA furniture due to not understanding the instructions. He is an electrical engineering. So regardless how industrious and fantastic my hubby's study ethic is, a book like Holt Geometry is great for an A while he ran away from our kids AoPS intro to geometry textbook.

 

Both my kids had finished the AoPS geometry book. My slower at reading and writing kid took about twice the time per day as my other kid because he was also walking around instead of being glue to the seat. However their visual spatial ability are about equal,

 

I can't tell you whether you should,continue with the AoPS geometry book or switch to another geometry book. I can tell you though that the AoPS Intermediate Algebra book would also build grit and resilience.

 

Also his workload ramp up, could tiredness be contributing to his slowness? I would really sit next to him and see what the issues are. For example, my older kid would glance at the kitchen when hungry, would catch a nap at the study table if tired. When he feels stuck he would be twirling his pencil or tapping his pencil on his scrap paper. If he is really struggling due to visual spatial issues, you and your spouse has to decide if it is worth the struggle.

 

I don't know about high school credits so I can't answer that.

 

Thanks for replying!

 

He has trouble visualizing things, mostly. Like with parallel lines, he has trouble remembering which angles are congruent, supplementary, etc. because he can't visualize it in his head. If he looks back at the diagram from Chap. 2 where he first learned the concept, he understands it, but it doesn't stick in his mind because he can't "see" it. Also, he has trouble seeing these concepts in the diagram for whatever current diagram he is working on. But what you said about your husband makes sense. We haven't met many chess players that aren't visual, but that sounds a lot like my DS.

 

So we could use the other AOPS books that come next even if we went with a different geometry book? If so, that is really good to know.

 

In terms of his workload, we are in the process of ramping up slowly. His only other really intense subject is writing. He is a very reluctant writer, and we are trying to catch up this year on essay writing. I would not say that he is overworked, but it is certainly possible that he is tired as he often stays up late reading chess books. I have sat with him, and I think that most of the time he legitimately has trouble getting started on a lot of the problems and that his attention tends to wander after a few minutes of intense thinking.

 

[caayenne]

How much effort is he putting in overall in all of his classes?  Are all of his courses as intense as the math program he is using?  Is it possible he is overloaded?  Getting burnt out?  

 

You say he has always worked slowly through math.  How much time is he spending on math each day?  Is he supposed to work for a specified time or does he work until he has completed a set number of problems or does he work until he decides to stop or ...?

 

Working that slowly may not mean he doesn't have tenacity and grit and the ability to work through hard stuff but that this really is quite challenging for him and he may be feeling a bit overwhelmed or burnt out or just plain mentally tired.  He may need a mental math break.  That doesn't mean he is "quitting" as in being a quitter as in being lazy.  Sometimes we all need a mental break.  Getting that break can be a lot healthier than slogging through at a slower and slower pace until we are completely burned out.

 

If slowly slogging through a very intense and challenging Geometry program at a snails pace is going to end up with him hating Geometry and getting really behind in math and driving you both nuts, I'm not sure it is worth it to continue with this particular program.  Not all subjects have to teach someone about grit and tenacity.  Sometimes it can be an important lesson to teach a student that if something isn't working terribly well then flexibility and a willingness to try something new might work better.  I am not saying you should drop this math program, but I am saying to carefully examine whether he is actually getting much out of it at this point.  You might just look at switching him to a different program temporarily just to see if he gains more out of it than slogging through this one.

 

On the flip side of that coin, if he is really getting a lot out of the program then I would sit right next to him and try to figure out why it takes so incredibly long for him.  Would it help if you scribed for him?  Or he used one of the specialized math typing programs and could type much of what he is doing?  Is it the writing itself since you say his computation is quick?

 

I would also carefully examine his workload overall and how many things he is doing that really inspire him.  Are there subjects that he really genuinely enjoys?  And how many subjects are quite intense/challenging and how many are not.  I am not saying make them all easy or even most of them or even any of them.  I am saying make sure there is balance.

 

:grouphug:   And good luck.

 

He is not working intensely in many other subjects. Most of his other subjects are reading heavy, output light, which he loves. He retains information incredibly well, which makes most learning very easy for him. As I said to Arcadia above, his only other intense subject right now is writing, as he has always been a reluctant writer and he needs to catch up. I know that he is enjoying Spanish, literature, and history for sure. We are about to start Physics, which I can't say he is exactly looking forward to, but he loves science, so hopefully that will be fine. He also sings in a choir and really enjoys working on his music.

 

We have tried different things in terms of how much math per day. After a lot of trial and error with AOPS in general, he has said that he can only focus that intensely for about an hour, so I have mostly had him try to work for an hour a day. But there are days where he only solves a single problem in that hour, which tends to upset him greatly. For what it's worth, he rarely has days like that until we get to the Review for each chapter. So I do think a certain amount of it might be performance anxiety. He has mentioned feeling burnt out, and that is definitely not something I want for him. I want math to stay a fascinating subject, as it was always his favorite.

 

He has said that he is very glad that he finished the first two AOPS books, even though they were very hard. He's proud of the work he did and that he completed such challenging books. I know that they deepened both of our understanding of math for sure.  I do often scribe for him on the lesson problems, as his preferred way of using the books is for us to solve the lesson problems together. He always completes the Exercises on his own, usually with very little difficulty, but still quite slowly.  He does have to erase and rewrite things a lot, as he can't stand for his paper to not look neat.

 

In terms of balance, I think that we are okay. It would certainly be better if math was not quite so much of a time suck and a mental drain. So switching may be the way to go, but I just can't shake the feeling that taking away his only really challenging subject might hurt him later when the next hard thing comes along. I know that when I was in school, math was always easy for me until the second half of Pre-Calculus. And then I just kind of gave up on the whole thing. I never took Calculus, which didn't end up mattering much to an English major, but I always kind of regretted it. But maybe if we plan to use AOPS for the rest of high school math, he could use something else for geometry.

 

Thank you for the advice!

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by caayenne

[OneStepAtATime]

Well, with your more detailed post it sounds like he does have a good balance. I am wondering if he (and you) would have any interest in changing his primary program but continuing this math program on the side, planning to just keep working through it at an extremely extended rate (perhaps over 2-3 years as a supplement). Switch to something else for his normal geometry program for this year. Maybe he doesn't even finish AoPS Geometry but still continues in limited fashion along the way for some additional depth. There are good geometry programs out there so you wouldn't have to default to something "easy". Just maybe something that works better for your son? You can always have him switch back later if you feel that would be best.

[regentrude]

You do not need chapter tests. I have only given final exams at the end of each semester, preceded by a review of the entire material.

It is fine to customize AoPS to your student's needs. It is plenty rigorous without doing the challenge problems.

 

I have gone through AoPS geo with both my kids. Geometry is difficult for students who prefer a systematic algorithmic approach; it is more an art. Maybe he would benefit from you working together with him on some of the harder problems.

 

ETA: We always limited the time for math to an hour with DS; he could not concentrate longer on math.

Edited September 16, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

Regarding "He does have to erase and rewrite things a lot, as he can't stand for his paper to not look neat", is it for every subject? My oldest used to write so carefully when in lower elementary that I joke he was carving his words. It also meant my oldest was a slow writer with hand strain. Now my oldest handwriting is legible and neat enough but won't win a handwriting contest.

 

You could use any book for geometry and then use AoPS intermediate algebra. However if he is okay with exercises but not so for review, then do the review together. You could still enjoy the AoPS geometry book together. My kids left the challenge problems to after finishing the book as those were a time suck in a good way and convenient for review.

[daijobu]

Thanks for replying!

 

He has trouble visualizing things, mostly. Like with parallel lines, he has trouble remembering which angles are congruent, supplementary, etc. because he can't visualize it in his head. If he looks back at the diagram from Chap. 2 where he first learned the concept, he understands it, but it doesn't stick in his mind because he can't "see" it. Also, he has trouble seeing these concepts in the diagram for whatever current diagram he is working on. 

 

 

Has he tried using different colored pencils and pens?  Does he know how to label congruent angles (single arc, double arc, arc with a little line through it) and parallel lines (little arrow heads)?  

 

Does he have trouble seeing corresponding angles and sides in similar and congruent triangles?  Try redrawing and isolating each triangle so they are side by side, oriented in the same way (with congruent angles marked as above).  I routinely do this, especially when the 2 similar triangles and upside down and backward from each other, as you might find in a trapezoid.

 

I can not read and understand from printed text and diagrams.  I need to redraw the diagrams myself and rewrite the equations myself.  It can be difficult for me to easily "see" angle ABC (especially if there are many other points mixed in), but relabeling it as "alpha" is easier for me.  It's also difficult for me to see that segments AB and BA are in fact the same segment.  If I relabel the distance as "x", it's easier for me to work the algebra.  (LMK if this doesn't make sense, and I'll find some examples.)

 

AoPS uses labeling that's more difficult for me to read, so I do a lot of relabeling to I can understand what's going on.  HTH.  

[regentrude]

He has trouble visualizing things, mostly. Like with parallel lines, he has trouble remembering which angles are congruent, supplementary, etc. because he can't visualize it in his head. If he looks back at the diagram from Chap. 2 where he first learned the concept, he understands it, but it doesn't stick in his mind because he can't "see" it. Also, he has trouble seeing these concepts in the diagram for whatever current diagram he is working on. But what you said about your husband makes sense. We haven't met many chess players that aren't visual, but that sounds a lot like my DS.

 

Have him draw a figure for each problem.

Give him a bunch of colored pencils to color every item that is known, using the same  color for quantities you know to be the same (same angle, same line).

Then have him go through angles one by one an identify all angles that are equal to one another and mark them with the same color.

 

Visualization can be trained.

 

He does not have to remember which angles are congruent, supplementary etc - he will see which ones are the same and which add to 180.