homeschool2boys Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I tried to post this before, but my computer is acting up, so forgive me if it gets posted twice. Yesterday I tried to make my first loaves of bread and something went terribly wrong with that second rise. I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I did everything just like the recipe and it rose the first time, I checked it by poking it, the dent stayed. I punched it down, made it into 2 loaves (just like the directions) let it rise 30 min and wound up with two squatty loaves of bread. They were pathetic really, you could not make a sandwhich out of them, maybe half a sandwhich. I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I followed the recipe down to the minute, timed everything, and still it made the short loaves. I used the recipe in the BHG cookbook. Isnt it supposed to rise to the top of the pan during the second rise (or above? I guess it just was not what I expected. I know I must be doing something wrong although I dont know what. Does anyone know what I am doing wrong? I really have no experience with bread baking, this was my first attempt. Any replies appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmamainva Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 My guess is that you didn't knead it effectively. You really have to knead bread dough for a long time. It should be very smooth with a glistening, almost "satin-like" finish to it. And it takes time to learn how to make bread from scratch, so don't give up!!! So try again!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I always do a sponge first, which improves the rise, especially in ww bread. But good kneading is important. I knead for about 8 minutes. Too short won't get it right, and too long will make it tough. Also, some of the last rise comes from the heat of the oven when the gas already in the bread expands with the heat. Also, how fresh is your yeast? Which kind are you using? I don't use instant, and always allow the yeast to dissolve properly first. Temperature makes a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 This is what I was thinking as well. Do the "windowpane" test. Take golfball-sized piece of the dough and make a small square w/ it using both hands. If you are able to make an opaque window w/o the dough breaking, that means the kneading is complete. You could have also overkneaded if you have a machine doin the work. Blessings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I'll second the advice to make sure you knead long enough and also to let the second rise go for as long as needed, instead of timing it. The rising time really depends on the conditions in your kitchen and may vary each time you make bread depending on if it's warmer or cooler. I've found that it can be a crucial step to getting a nice sized loaf of bread. I don't know what recipe you're using, but I also found through a lot of trial and error, that I couldn't get the texture and size with all whole wheat flour. I now use about 60% whole wheat and 40% white flour, along with dough enhancer. With this blend, I can make a nice sized loaf that has a really nice texture, slices well and works good for sandwiches and toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I'll second the advice to make sure you knead long enough and also to let the second rise go for as long as needed, instead of timing it. The rising time really depends on the conditions in your kitchen and may vary each time you make bread depending on if it's warmer or cooler. I've found that it can be a crucial step to getting a nice sized loaf of bread. I don't know what recipe you're using, but I also found through a lot of trial and error, that I couldn't get the texture and size with all whole wheat flour. I now use about 60% whole wheat and 40% white flour, along with dough enhancer. With this blend, I can make a nice sized loaf that has a really nice texture, slices well and works good for sandwiches and toast. fyi, powdered milk is a natural dough enhancer that helps the texture of bread. It's true that all ww stays smaller. An alternative to adding white flour (I've added white flour with wheat germ in it lately to reduce production of gas in a certain family member) you can add vital wheat gluten that will make the 100 percent ww bread rise higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 fyi, powdered milk is a natural dough enhancer that helps the texture of bread. It's true that all ww stays smaller. An alternative to adding white flour (I've added white flour with wheat germ in it lately to reduce production of gas in a certain family member) you can add vital wheat gluten that will make the 100 percent ww bread rise higher. My recipe for dough enhancer has powdered milk, lecithin, ginger and Vitamin C. I do also use vital wheat gluten, but still couldn't get the results I wanted with 100% whole wheat - the bread was tasty, but the texture just wouldn't hold up to slicing more thinly for sandwiches (it had to be thicker to not fall apart - it wasn't crumbly, just wouldn't hold up to being made into a sandwich). So I started adding white flour to help with that. I really wanted to get a 100% whole wheat bread with a super texture, but couldn't figure it out :confused: I suppose if I had tried more variations I may have discovered the right proportions, but once I added the white flour and saw how it turned out, I was pretty much done experimenting :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I am a fairly new bread maker, but I agree with the others. Another suggestion, apart form letting the 2nd rise take as long as it needs to to get to a god height, making sure the yeast is viable (but it sounds like it is if the rise rise went well) , and making sure you knead enough...is to make sure the flour you are using is good for breadmaking. I buy flour from a bread making shop...the guy there insists only certain high protein, specific wheat strains are suitable, and incorrect flour is a major cause of bread failure. So far I haven't had a failure using his "breadmaking" flour, even with minimal yeast (1/2 tsp to 3 large loaves)and no bread enhancer apart from some ginger powder. I do leave the dough out overnight for the first rise though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 fyi, powdered milk is a natural dough enhancer that helps the texture of bread. It's true that all ww stays smaller. An alternative to adding white flour (I've added white flour with wheat germ in it lately to reduce production of gas in a certain family member) you can add vital wheat gluten that will make the 100 percent ww bread rise higher. I've never thought of powdered milk as 'natural" ;) The lecithin (a milk protein) is supposed to be a very good dough enhancer. By chance are you are using instant yeast? If so, it could be losing its effectiveness before that second rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I've never thought of powdered milk as 'natural" ;) The lecithin (a milk protein) is supposed to be a very good dough enhancer. By chance are you are using instant yeast? If so, it could be losing its effectiveness before that second rise. Well, I was comparing it to those chemical dough enhancers often found in commercial breads!!!!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 My recipe for dough enhancer has powdered milk, lecithin, ginger and Vitamin C. I do also use vital wheat gluten, but still couldn't get the results I wanted with 100% whole wheat - the bread was tasty, but the texture just wouldn't hold up to slicing more thinly for sandwiches (it had to be thicker to not fall apart - it wasn't crumbly, just wouldn't hold up to being made into a sandwich). So I started adding white flour to help with that. I really wanted to get a 100% whole wheat bread with a super texture, but couldn't figure it out :confused: I suppose if I had tried more variations I may have discovered the right proportions, but once I added the white flour and saw how it turned out, I was pretty much done experimenting :) That sounds like a lot of things to add. I like to keep things simple for basic bread. What makes white bread that way is the fact that white flour is much higher in gluten and the lack of fibre. You can't get ww bread exactly like white, but if you use vital wheat gluten in 100 percent ww bread you will get more rise providing your yeast is good, you've kneaded correctly, etc. I have found that using the sponge bread improves the flavour and texture of the bread. Any bread recipe can be converted to the sponge method. I learned the basics of converting any bread recipe to the sponge method in The Bread Bible and use it with ww bread. Probably the best teaching book for making 100 percent ww bread that works well is in The Tassajara Bread Book. The first time I ever made bread, at the ripe old age of 17/18, I used that book and it worked perfectly. Not that I've never made any mistakes since. I did find a fabulous book at the library that teaches how to make a biga, etc (am I spelling this right?) but that method takes a couple of days, and the whole book is dedictated to helping bakers make the transistion to 100 percent ww bread--each recipe has a 50/50 version & a 100 percent ww version. It makes fabulous bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Run, do not walk, to the library and get Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day. This is a truly foolproof method (and when it comes to baking, I am a :biggrinjester:). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschool2boys Posted October 3, 2008 Author Share Posted October 3, 2008 Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Yesterday was crazy, by the time I got done hsing, cooking dinner, watching the debate, cleaning, and everything else it was way past bed time. I have not had a chance to get back here until this morning. My kid got a blow out on the way to town too and we had to go help change his tire, it was a busy day. I think I am using instant yeast? I was not sure what to buy so I just bought the jar of Red Star Yeast at walmart. I dont know where I could buy the other kind of yeast but I did see a few websites that sell yeast by the pound. I may try buying it that way to save costs. Where do you buy your yeast if you buy it online? I would love to go to a store and buy it but around here we dont have much in the way of stores. I am pretty much stuck with walmart, aldi, or price cutter for shopping. Yesterday I tried kneeding it more (I timed myself) and it did rise slightly more but not like a good loaf should be. Maybe it is the flour? I just got regular white flour because it did not call for anything else in the recipe. Maybe I should have gotten bread flour? I am going to look up a recipe that makes a sponge. I really dont know how to do that so I need to find a good recipe. I did look up a recipe on the Red Star website and think I will try it today. I dont know if the BHG recipe is just bad or its a combination of stuff I am doing wrong. Today I am also going to try that window thing with the dough. Hopefully I can figure out if I am kneeding it enough. Thanks so much for all of the posts, hopefully I can get to the bottom of why this is not working. If it dont work today I am going to go to the store and buy some bread four but I dont know what I can do about the yeast. I guess I will just have to stop trying to make bread and buy some online. Thanks again for all of the replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Yesterday was crazy, by the time I got done hsing, cooking dinner, watching the debate, cleaning, and everything else it was way past bed time. I have not had a chance to get back here until this morning. My kid got a blow out on the way to town too and we had to go help change his tire, it was a busy day. I Maybe I should have gotten bread flour? I am going to look up a recipe that makes a sponge. I really dont know how to do that so I need to find a good recipe. I did look up a recipe on the Red Star website and think I will try it today. I dont know if the BHG recipe is just bad or its a combination of stuff I am doing wrong. Today I am also going to try that window thing with the dough. Hopefully I can figure out if I am kneeding it enough. Thanks so much for all of the posts, hopefully I can get to the bottom of why this is not working. If it dont work today I am going to go to the store and buy some bread four but I dont know what I can do about the yeast. I guess I will just have to stop trying to make bread and buy some online. Thanks again for all of the replies. Bread flour works best. I've never tried instant yeast. I buy mine in 2 pound bags, but buy it from a store in a neighbouring town that caters to restaurants but also sells to the public. I know it is sold by the pound in our coop. Can't help you with the online. If you're not sure about your yeast, you can proof it to see how viable it still is. If it's active dry yeast, no salt should be added until it has completely dissolved. Salt inhibits yeast action to some degree, which is why those who make a sponge first aren't supposed to add the salt until after the sponge is done. But bread made without salt doesn't seem to taste as good. If you make a sponge, half the yeast in the bread has already developed the gluten in 1/3 of the flour, which improves the rise in bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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