rzberrymom Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 How big of a deal is it that my daughter's piano teacher can't do polyrhythms? Meaning, the teacher can't really play them, and struggles to teach them. She has a Doctorate in music, she is beyond fantastic at teaching theory, my daughter adores her, she's fantastic at helping my daughter interpret a piece. But, is it going to be an issue if she can't teach her polyrhythms? Or should I just not worry about it? My DD first encountered them in the Minute Waltz, the teacher struggled to help her with the one measure that had 4 against 3 (I think that's what it's called). The teacher couldn't play the measure to demonstrate, but DD and I found tutorials online and figured it out at home. Later, my DD started trying to teach herself the first movement of Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto (she gets bored, so this was just for fun and not for the teacher), and she realized that there are pages of polyrhythms. She found online tutorials, she's muddling through on her own, but she doesn't have anyone who can check her work and make sure she's moving forward correctly. What would you do in that situation? Tell the kid to back off and find something easier to have fun with? Find someone online that might be willing to check her rhythm and make sure she has it right? (Is there even such a thing?) Find a teacher in our city that is more advanced with performing? (that is my last resort since my kid loves her) Going forward, is this a big deal? Or not something to worry about? You guys have really helped me with piano questions in the past, so I figured I'd see what you all would do. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I would say that is a very big deal and I would do everything possible to find another teacher. DS just had a festival performance where his 3-page song was nothing but polyrhythms. Honestly, it just takes a lot of practice and I suppose your daughter could continue to muddle through on her own (I don't know how long she has been playing?) but they are so much easier when your teacher can play and dissect and give pointers on them. You could find easier pieces now, but you can't run forever :) Maybe that's what the teacher has been doing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Cool. My dd just started polyrhythms in her music theory. Her teacher claps the one rhythm and she claps the other, then they switch. The teacher pointed out exactly where the fewer beats (3) part fit between the 4 beats part. He also told her to stop counting in subdivisions, and just count aloud the pause. So, for example, she would switch from counting 1 e and a, 2 e and a, 3 e and a, 4 e and a, and just count the 1, 2, 3, 4. As far as sticking with this teacher, this would probably be something that would cause me to lose some confidence in the teacher's ability to bring my child forth to the furthest she could go. It looks like your dd is only 11, and interested in playing challenging music to a high level. It could be a potential limitation for her future. Edited March 22, 2016 by wintermom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzberrymom Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Cool. My dd just started polyrhythms in her music theory. Her teacher claps the one rhythm and she claps the other, then they switch. The teacher pointed out exactly where the fewer beats (3) part fit between the 4 beats part. He also told her to stop counting in subdivisions, and just count aloud the pause. So, for example, she would switch from counting 1 e and a, 2 e and a, 3 e and a, 4 e and a, and just count the 1, 2, 3, 4. Yeah, the clapping definitely helped a lot with the itty bit that was in the Chopin, but the Beethoven has pages of 4ths and 16ths over triplets and then just 16ths over triplets and then just 4ths over triplets--even with clapping it out and then making up funny sentences to help remember the pattern, I imagine she could be making mistakes here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzberrymom Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 I would say that is a very big deal and I would do everything possible to find another teacher. DS just had a festival performance where his 3-page song was nothing but polyrhythms. Honestly, it just takes a lot of practice and I suppose your daughter could continue to muddle through on her own (I don't know how long she has been playing?) but they are so much easier when your teacher can play and dissect and give pointers on them. You could find easier pieces now, but you can't run forever :) Maybe that's what the teacher has been doing... Oh dear, that's what I was afraid of. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 My kids have a teacher for theory and music composition. Another for the practical/playing portion. I have no luck finding one good at teaching both theory and practical. Could you do something like that since your daughter's teacher is good at theory? My kids former flute and violin teachers are great at teaching playing but they don't have the patience for teaching theory. My former piano teacher for example could do one track of the ABRSM pianoforte exams but she is not competent on the other track at higher levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzberrymom Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 My kids have a teacher for theory and music composition. Another for the practical/playing portion. I have no luck finding one good at teaching both theory and practical. Could you do something like that since your daughter's teacher is good at theory? My kids former flute and violin teachers are great at teaching playing but they don't have the patience for teaching theory. My former piano teacher for example could do one track of the ABRSM pianoforte exams but she is not competent on the other track at higher levels. Oooooh, I love this idea! Is it hard for the kids to handle work from two teachers? Are the teachers ok with the kids having another teacher? How did you make that arrangement originally? Although, I don't really think this teacher would keep my daughter as a student if I asked her just to teach theory--she has close to 25 kids, she's always wanting to take more, and I think that might prompt her to dump us. :( But, I love that idea!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Is it hard for the kids to handle work from two teachers? Are the teachers ok with the kids having another teacher? My kids don't mind as the instrument teacher gives them pieces to practise for homework, while the theory teacher gives them theory homework to do. It actually works out well for us because my kids do a primary instrument of their choice and piano as their secondary instrument. If they want to add a band instrument as their third, music theory isn't affected. Their instrument teachers are the ones who tell me to teach my kids music theory myself or get a teacher to teach. They aren't interested in spending time on teaching theory when they prefer to teach practical. I had taught my kids rudimentary sight reading for piano so their teachers are happy to not do theory. My primary instrument is piano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 How big of a deal is it that my daughter's piano teacher can't do polyrhythms? Meaning, the teacher can't really play them, and struggles to teach them. She has a Doctorate in music, she is beyond fantastic at teaching theory, my daughter adores her, she's fantastic at helping my daughter interpret a piece. But, is it going to be an issue if she can't teach her polyrhythms? Or should I just not worry about it? I'm not an expert in piano, but I remember one of my piano teachers saying that they were important in piano and had to be mastered, period. She basically told me to accept that I had to learn them to keep going. They don't come up in instruments where you play a single line of notes. Before my daughter quite competition, every one of her competition pieces had them. If you plan to advance further, I'd look for another teacher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) Yeah, the clapping definitely helped a lot with the itty bit that was in the Chopin, but the Beethoven has pages of 4ths and 16ths over triplets and then just 16ths over triplets and then just 4ths over triplets--even with clapping it out and then making up funny sentences to help remember the pattern, I imagine she could be making mistakes here and there. Did you mentioned that your dd was tackling the Beethoven on her own, unprompted by the teacher? Sounds like the jump from the Chopin to this Beethoven is too much for now. There have to be other pieces that she can work on to gradually build up to the complexity of the Beethoven. Just like we don't jump from addition to calculus in math, it's probably not wise to attempt something similar in music. Trying to fix mistakes is often worse than learning properly initially. Edited March 23, 2016 by wintermom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSmomof2 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I agree it's important and am surprised the teacher can't play or teach them. That is a little concerning. I learned polyrhythms in 7th grade (6th year of lessons). Listening to my teacher play them was one of the biggest helps in me being able to learn to play them. Although, with the online resources available today, she can probably figure it out from those, so I wouldn't find a new teacher over just this issue. For me, once I learned how to do polyrhythms, learning new ones was easier....kind of like riding a bike--once you can do it, you always remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzberrymom Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) Did you mentioned that your dd was tackling the Beethoven on her own, unprompted by the teacher? Sounds like the jump from the Chopin to this Beethoven is too much for now. There have to be other pieces that she can work on to gradually build up to the complexity of the Beethoven. Just like we don't jump from addition to calculus in math, it's probably not wise to attempt something similar in music. Trying to fix mistakes is often worse than learning properly initially.Yeah, it's probably too big of a jump. But, it's her free time, it's what she's dying to do, it's what she jumps out of bed for in the morning. So, I let her do it, even though it makes little sense. I guess what to do about the polyrhythms is an issue for us either way since we're encountering them in easier pieces. I just wasn't sure how big of a deal it was. Edited March 23, 2016 by rzberrymom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzberrymom Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Listening to my teacher play them was one of the biggest helps in me being able to learn to play them. Hmm, that helps to hear that. Listening to them online has been good, but not the same as the back and forth with a teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) Hmm, that helps to hear that. Listening to them online has been good, but not the same as the back and forth with a teacher. Yes, I agree with you. It's so valuable having in-person help from an expert. BTW, I mentioned to our music theory teacher whether it seemed strange to him that a piano teacher would have difficulty presenting poly rhythm to a student, and he wondered if the teacher just had trouble explaining and teaching it. If you really like this teacher, maybe you could ask her to create a little poly rhythm unit for your dd, to work specifically on this. She should be able to do some research and come back with different ways to present the material so that it starts to click. If she's not willing to put in extra effort for an enthusiastic student, then it would be a good sign to look for another teacher. Our guitar teacher does stuff like this for my 2 boys. He goes out of his way to find methods to teach difficult techniques to reach his students. He is very interested in the pedagogy of music, and he's still near the beginning of his teaching career. It makes a HUGE difference in my boys' motivation to work for him, that's for sure. Our violin teacher, at a much later point in her teaching career, seems to have 100+ different methods of teaching techniques to my dd and ds already waiting in her mind. She takes the difficult and seems to know exactly how to simplify it for each of my kids - exactly where they are. It's amazing. Edited March 25, 2016 by wintermom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) How did she get a Doc. in Music if she can't play polyrhythms? How do you know she can't play them? That is odd. I can understand a teacher trying to multi-task too much and make mistakes...but....odd. I've had embarrassing moments where I was so intuned to a kid's behavior, but my mouth was still teaching, and things didn't come out correctly. But in a private lesson, IDK. I'm not an expert in piano, but I remember one of my piano teachers saying that they were important in piano and had to be mastered, period. She basically told me to accept that I had to learn them to keep going. They don't come up in instruments where you play a single line of notes. Before my daughter quite competition, every one of her competition pieces had them. If you plan to advance further, I'd look for another teacher. Actually, they do come up. Even instruments that play/sing only one line have to be able to do their part against other instruments in different patterns. I've got a BSE Music Ed. vocal/choral. We had to be darn good at it to get the bach degree. What is her Doctorate in? Music history? Edited March 27, 2016 by 4blessingmom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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