Medieval Persia anyone?

[EndOfOrdinary]

Ds has discovered Rumi, which is awesome. However, he now wants to know much more about Medieval Persia and Rumi's contemporaries, other philosophies of the period, and religious texts/ideas. I've got nothin' 😳 Totally clueless.

 

I was raised in conservative MillTown, Whitesville, USA. Anyone out there have directions to steer us? I am hoping for much more philosophies and much less tantric sex. However, the latter might just be a significant misconception due to the whole Whitesville, USA upbringing.

 

Ds is turns 11 in a week. He is fascinated with classical writings, social constructs and humanities. I am not worried about complexity. Any help would be great!

[Tsuga]

Rumi does write about love in a kind of abstract way, but I felt it was all pretty reverent. Most of the literature preserved from that time is of course written to adults (like Shakespeare) so I guess that's just a hazard to cope with.

 

For your son, I would start with Firdowsi (I can't type in Persian with Arabic script so pardon the erratic transliterations) and the Shahnameh (shah=king, nameh, from the same root as "name" and "nomenclature", =book). The closest equivalent to it would probably be the Iliad but it's more than that. If your son is highly gifted he could read a good translation of the Shahnameh which is not perfectly clean but is not lascivious or pornographic. I would let our 12 year old boy read it. If you're looking for a kid friendlier version, start with Rahmanian and Sadri's graphic version: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/07/18/remaking-an-iranian-epic/

 

It's still challenging but gorgeous.

 

Rudaki is from the eastern part of the empire and a poet.

 

http://leopard.booklikes.com/post/847827/father-of-persian-verse-rudaki-and-his-poetry-translated-and-introduced-by-sassan-tabatabai

 

Without these two pre-medieval influences he will not undestand what comes later. They are essential and also entertaining. Rumi refers back to them many times in his work.

 

I should be working but I'll come back to this later.

 

ETA: I forgot to mention, Persian is a really easy language. It's like English. If he's looking for a foreign language, that one is highly in demand and a bazillion times easier than Arabic. Just sayin'. ;)

[Luckymama]

ETA: I forgot to mention, Persian is a really easy language. It's like English. If he's looking for a foreign language, that one is highly in demand and a bazillion times easier than Arabic. Just sayin'. ;)

Questions for you since you sound helpful :D

 

1. Would someone at the Intermediate-Low (maybe -Mid; her prof is very complimentary) level in Arabic be "confused" by starting Persian?

 

2. Can you suggest some resources (book or online) that can be used in conjunction with an in-person (Iranian graduate student) tutor?

 

Dd and I had a discussion this afternoon of the value of Persian v Turkish :) And then that pesky Hindi keeps popping up...

[EndOfOrdinary]

Rumi does write about love in a kind of abstract way, but I felt it was all pretty reverent. Most of the literature preserved from that time is of course written to adults (like Shakespeare) so I guess that's just a hazard to cope with.

 

For your son, I would start with Firdowsi (I can't type in Persian with Arabic script so pardon the erratic transliterations) and the Shahnameh (shah=king, nameh, from the same root as "name" and "nomenclature", =book). The closest equivalent to it would probably be the Iliad but it's more than that. If your son is highly gifted he could read a good translation of the Shahnameh which is not perfectly clean but is not lascivious or pornographic. I would let our 12 year old boy read it. If you're looking for a kid friendlier version, start with Rahmanian and Sadri's graphic version: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/07/18/remaking-an-iranian-epic/

 

It's still challenging but gorgeous.

 

Rudaki is from the eastern part of the empire and a poet.

 

http://leopard.booklikes.com/post/847827/father-of-persian-verse-rudaki-and-his-poetry-translated-and-introduced-by-sassan-tabatabai

 

Without these two pre-medieval influences he will not undestand what comes later. They are essential and also entertaining. Rumi refers back to them many times in his work.

 

I should be working but I'll come back to this later.

 

ETA: I forgot to mention, Persian is a really easy language. It's like English. If he's looking for a foreign language, that one is highly in demand and a bazillion times easier than Arabic. Just sayin'. ;)

Yay!  Thank You SO much!  Any jumping off points to just keep him reading and interested right now are fantastic.  Knowing about the influence is ideal, since the culture is completely foreign at this point.

 

As for languages, sheesh!  The boy has so many languages right now.  I can see him really enjoy learning Persian in a couple years....or I could just for the awesomeness of it all.

[Tsuga]

Questions for you since you sound helpful :D

 

1. Would someone at the Intermediate-Low (maybe -Mid; her prof is very complimentary) level in Arabic be "confused" by starting Persian?

 

Totally different grammars and roots. Persian is like English. It's word order all the way. If she can learn languages this should not confuse her. Only the alphabets are similar. But like English and Finnish have the same alphabets but are from totally different language families and English is way easier, Persian just borrowed the alphabet and a few loan words from Arabic via religion, but it's not at all the same. If you are not familiar with Finnish I guess you could say Persian:Arabic as English:Turkish. Same alphabet. Not the same difficulty. Persian shares roots with English, too. Modar, padar, nom = name, ist=is, am = am (I am = Man am), etc. She will find it a huge relief. It is the easiest language I've learned, including French, especially with respect to verbs. I don't know Arabic but I know it's hard. I also know that since the Persian alphabet is different, even I, a novice Persian speaker, can immediately tell Arabic from Persian in print and when spoken.

2. Can you suggest some resources (book or online) that can be used in conjunction with an in-person (Iranian graduate student) tutor?

 

I used Assimile. I learned in conversation. I would not be able to recommend an academic resource.

 

Dd and I had a discussion this afternoon of the value of Persian v Turkish :) And then that pesky Hindi keeps popping up...

 

Persian is far easier and therefore, less valuable, because more people can master it. Also, many Persian speakers are also native English speakers thanks to the Iranian and Afghan diasporas. Still, it's lovely.

 

[Roadrunner]

She wants to go into foreign service, right? Tell her to think about the region she wants to wok. The combination of French and Arabic could mean forever stuck on assignments in Africa. I would think along those lines if picking a language for professional career, unless I have you confused and foreign service isn't what she wants.

[Luckymama]

She wants to go into foreign service, right? Tell her to think about the region she wants to wok. The combination of French and Arabic could mean forever stuck on assignments in Africa. I would think along those lines if picking a language for professional career, unless I have you confused and foreign service isn't what she wants.

Yes, that is one of her career options :) She's staying away from French right now for that reason.

 

We has a longer discussion yesterday about the value of learning languages from the same region (Middle East for Persian/Turkish to go w Arabic) vs learning languages from different regions (so Russian/Chinese/other in addition to the Arabic). Much, much thought is going into her language choices and essays for nsli-y (gosh, I sure hope she makes it to the semi-finalist round...)

[EndOfOrdinary]

Just for the sake of letting this thread veer completely astray ;)

 

The idea of focussing on a region intregues me. My son has wanted to be a polyglot pretty much since he could express himself. Currently he is learning Latin, Spanish, and just beginning to put his toes into Japanese. He has native speakers to work with for both Spanish and Japanese, as well as a local-ish community college which has multiple classes in both for a couple of years from now. The other languages he is interested in are Russian, Greek, and Italian.

 

I had not even considered the idea of focussing on a region, but it makes so much sense when considering the idea of working abroad. Ds wants to teach abroad and travel the world (Mainly European countries). This desire has not faltered and seems pretty stuck, though he is still young. Would it make the most sense to just focus heavily on the Mediteranian countries for right now? My first response was to be "well rounded" and have him sample around the globe. Now I am thinking that really having a focal point (not to the exclusion of enjoying the others, but more just a focus) might be a better thought.

 

Hook me up with all the great experience of the Hive Mind!

[Roadrunner]

Well, if you are planning on a foreign service career, as a young diplomat you assume you will be stationed where you have an expertise. The combination of French and Arabic almost guarantees you land in Africa.. Russian increases your chances of working in the former USSR...... The odds are against that your first assignment will land you in Paris. Now the positive about difficult locations is that diplomatic careers are made during crisis. You almost want an insane mess, so you can show yourself, distinguish yourself, and hence build career. More wars at your post, higher the chances of making a name. Fancy locations where nothing happens don't lend well to career building.

I think that picking a language is almost like picking a second identity, because you immerse into that culture. So if not thinking about the region, think about the culture.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I think that picking a language is almost like picking a second identity, because you immerse into that culture. So if not thinking about the region, think about the culture.

This makes a lot of sense. Thank You. Originally he wanted to do community organizing and development / social justice internationally. When he learned that such a job really was quite dangerous for a family, that killed that. The kid wants a family. So teaching it has become. This might change as well, so focussing on a culture makes a lot of sense.

[Tsuga]

This makes a lot of sense. Thank You. Originally he wanted to do community organizing and development / social justice internationally. When he learned that such a job really was quite dangerous for a family, that killed that. The kid wants a family. So teaching it has become. This might change as well, so focussing on a culture makes a lot of sense.

 

 

I completely disagree that he can't do international work.

 

As a man, he has a ton of options. I worked in international development for ten straight years and still had my first baby before 30 (started in college, from afar, doing basic volunteer work) and was able to work from a safe though still not highly developed country for a couple more years. I had my children over here and went back to work. Now I have an HQ-ish position. Lots of people move to stable countries when they have a family.

 

 

He's a male, so biologically he's got at least 10 more years to build up that resume before he has to seriously worry about fertility and meeting a lady who's also fertile. 10 years of war zones is plenty for most people anyway.

 

I knew loads of people who did their decade overseas, saw their wars, made their names, and then came back home mid-thirties to have a nice little family, safe and sound near their mother's village. The men stayed longer, for the reasons I've mentioned above. Women don't want to end up on IVF so they marry younger. It's also why you don't get a lot of sane people with 30 years of experience in that sector. But you do get young people and it's easy to move up fast.

 

I would encourage him to pursue his passion when young. He will never get that opportunity again.

[madteaparty]

Well, if you are planning on a foreign service career, as a young diplomat you assume you will be stationed where you have an expertise. The combination of French and Arabic almost guarantees you land in Africa.. Russian increases your chances of working in the former USSR...... The odds are against that your first assignment will land you in Paris. Now the positive about difficult locations is that diplomatic careers are made during crisis. You almost want an insane mess, so you can show yourself, distinguish yourself, and hence build career. More wars at your post, higher the chances of making a name. Fancy locations where nothing happens don't lend well to career building.

I think that picking a language is almost like picking a second identity, because you immerse into that culture. So if not thinking about the region, think about the culture.

I don't know about Persian but is anyone shocked how little Arabic is studied in the US? I mean every other high school and middle school and elementary even has some Mandarin program but finding arabic resources is like pulling teeth.

[Luckymama]

I don't know about Persian but is anyone shocked how little Arabic is studied in the US? I mean every other high school and middle school and elementary even has some Mandarin program but finding arabic resources is like pulling teeth.

The difficulty, at least here, is finding Arabic teachers.

 

We live adjacent to a research university. There are 80 bazillion Chinese grad students. The spouses (the ones able to work) are being hired to teach at the two-year-old Chinese immersion elementary program at the school down the street and at other programs.

[madteaparty]

The difficulty, at least here, is finding Arabic teachers.

 

We live adjacent to a research university. There are 80 bazillion Chinese grad students. The spouses (the ones able to work) are being hired to teach at the two-year-old Chinese immersion elementary program at the school down the street and at other programs.

Parts of larger NYC (Steinway street, Astoria comes to mind) have the largest arabic speaking population in the country. But I've yet to tour a high school that offers arabic (granted, I've a few tours left). NYU has many programs, including a summer intensive one, most large enough colleges in the area do the same, but to try and find something below university level has been surprisingly hard.

[Roadrunner]

I don't know about Persian but is anyone shocked how little Arabic is studied in the US? I mean every other high school and middle school and elementary even has some Mandarin program but finding arabic resources is like pulling teeth.

I am not that surprised. Chinese is associated with business. I can't tell you how many times I hear that Chinese will rule the world and Chinese language will be an international language like English. You certainly won't hear that about Arabic. :) Outside of intelligence and foreign policy circles, nobody feels Arabic language is necessary, and those are such nich careers.

[madteaparty]

I am not that surprised. Chinese is associated with business. I can't tell you how many times I hear that Chinese will rule the world and Chinese language will be an international language like English. You certainly won't hear that about Arabic. :) Outside of intelligence and foreign policy circles, nobody feels Arabic language is necessary, and those are such nich careers.

Hey now. There's sharia-compliant derivatives one could get into ;)