Help me with editing, please!

[Miss Tick]

During our writing time, dd (10 yo, 5th) will ask me questions like, "Do some writers write things that don't need any changes at all?" or "If you suggest changes to my writing I don't have to incorporate them, right?" I answer these in as non-threatening way as I can muster - I've never heard of a writer not using an editor (except perhaps Jack Kerouac? I mean, my goodness) and usually they are near the top of the list or people the author thanks. Or, true, I will not compel you to make changes, these are just suggestions...

 

I'm not sure how to approach editing so that it is viewed as a natural part of the writing. For the last year or two my approach has been avoidance, but clearly that is not a viable long-term solution.  I need suggestions!

[Junie]

The only author that I've ever heard of who didn't use an editor was Dr. Seuss.

 

And I would tell her that if she didn't make the changes there would be points deducted on the final copy.

 

 

 

ETA:  I was a copy editor for my college newspaper.  Some people were very reluctant to make changes, but most recognized the fact that the editing improved their writing.

[Miss Tick]

The only author that I've ever heard of who didn't use an editor was Dr. Seuss.

 

And I would tell her that if she didn't make the changes there would be points deducted on the final copy.

 

 

 

ETA:  I was a copy editor for my college newspaper.  Some people were very reluctant to make changes, but most recognized the fact that the editing improved their writing.

 

I'm trying to work us up gently from narration/dictation type writing to academic writing, but we are not there yet. So right now I'm not grading yet, just hoping to introduce editing and let everyone get a feel for how it will work.  Maybe I just need to wait out this phase, or perhaps I need to enlist other "readers" besides myself.

 

You are right that eventually it will have an impact on her grade, but I'm afraid if I say that now we will forever be locked in a her vs. me approach to writing.

 

[Pen]

The only author that I've ever heard of who didn't use an editor was Dr. Seuss.

 

And I would tell her that if she didn't make the changes there would be points deducted on the final copy.

 

 

 

ETA:  I was a copy editor for my college newspaper.  Some people were very reluctant to make changes, but most recognized the fact that the editing improved their writing.

 

We had a Dr. Seuss collection that showed some pictures of his manuscripts where he had crossed out and rewritten things, showing how much he worked and reworked his writing.

[PeterPan]

There are different philosophies of editing and writing, how to approach writing instruction, and I think you're wise to slow down and to want to be *intentional* about this.  

 

There *is* an approach that says write, draft, don't revise the student's writing.  Seriously.  And personally, that's about where I'm at.  I've done it both ways, and I think it's more useful to go instruct on what we could do going forward, like try to weave that in *next* time as goals.  When you do this, you're viewing the writing process as a progression, where every time they're getting a little better, where we don't have to be freaky about one piece because we know another is coming.  Check and see where Bravewriter is on this.  I don't recall, as it has been a while since I read any of her stuff, but this might be where she's at.  It's a very whole, reasonable way of approaching it.

 

It's also true that some people think through their drafts.  It's a writing style, and it's helpful to get sort of self-aware on this and realize how you as a writer think.  Do you think through your drafts?  YES some people sit down and write almost perfect, complete drafts.  The people I know like that happen to be extremely gifted (high IQ), perfectionist (extremely so), and on the spectrum.  But absolutely it happens.  So think about that contrast, with some people thinking through their writing and producing ugly drafts on the way to finished drafts, while other people are turning out an almost complete final product needing merely minor revisions.  

 

I think if the student *isn't* turning out a draft that needs a lot of revisions that *maybe* that means you could up the level of challenge in the next assignment.  Or maybe it means you have a good level of executive function and support to where she's thinking things through.  I think you can also go sort of meta and have them self-check by the list of goals you had for the assignment.  (Did you use complex sentences, did you support your argument well, did you consider audience...)  

 

I don't think it's necessary to take an otherwise good writer and run them through the ringer just to say you did.  Make the assignment more challenging or give her a more precise list of goals and then discuss how she did and what she might like to try next time.  More collaborative.  With a really good, budding writer it's adequate.  And if she's not a good writer, well you don't want to discourage her anyway.  My dd has been the former, and my ds may turn out to be the latter, given his long list of SLDs.  Still, even with all his SLDs, I'll try to keep it collaborative.

[Miss Tick]

We had a Dr. Seuss collection that showed some pictures of his manuscripts where he had crossed out and rewritten things, showing how much he worked and reworked his writing.

 

Something like that might be helpful so that I can casually show how other writers do it. I will ask around at the library.

[Miss Tick]

There are different philosophies of editing and writing, how to approach writing instruction, and I think you're wise to slow down and to want to be *intentional* about this.  

 

Thanks, I am freaking out a bit, this helps.

 

There *is* an approach that says write, draft, don't revise the student's writing.  Seriously.  And personally, that's about where I'm at.  I've done it both ways, and I think it's more useful to go instruct on what we could do going forward, like try to weave that in *next* time as goals.  When you do this, you're viewing the writing process as a progression, where every time they're getting a little better, where we don't have to be freaky about one piece because we know another is coming.  Check and see where Bravewriter is on this.  I don't recall, as it has been a while since I read any of her stuff, but this might be where she's at.  It's a very whole, reasonable way of approaching it.

 

I'm trying not to buy Bravewriter since I don't have plans to implement it, but my resistance is weakening because I think you are right, and she has a lot of assignments that don't get edited. Maybe I can borrow it.

 

It's also true that some people think through their drafts.  It's a writing style, and it's helpful to get sort of self-aware on this and realize how you as a writer think.  Do you think through your drafts?  YES some people sit down and write almost perfect, complete drafts.  The people I know like that happen to be extremely gifted (high IQ), perfectionist (extremely so), and on the spectrum.  But absolutely it happens.  So think about that contrast, with some people thinking through their writing and producing ugly drafts on the way to finished drafts, while other people are turning out an almost complete final product needing merely minor revisions.  

 

I think if the student *isn't* turning out a draft that needs a lot of revisions that *maybe* that means you could up the level of challenge in the next assignment.  Or maybe it means you have a good level of executive function and support to where she's thinking things through.  I think you can also go sort of meta and have them self-check by the list of goals you had for the assignment.  (Did you use complex sentences, did you support your argument well, did you consider audience...)  

 

*lightbulb* Ohh, a list of goals. Embarrassingly, I haven't been that specific. This will be a good week to implement that.

 

I don't think it's necessary to take an otherwise good writer and run them through the ringer just to say you did.  Make the assignment more challenging or give her a more precise list of goals and then discuss how she did and what she might like to try next time.  More collaborative.  With a really good, budding writer it's adequate.  And if she's not a good writer, well you don't want to discourage her anyway.  My dd has been the former, and my ds may turn out to be the latter, given his long list of SLDs.  Still, even with all his SLDs, I'll try to keep it collaborative.

 

I think collaborative is the key word. I want writing to be more collaborative, and I envision editing as a small, natural part of that. Maybe I need to refocus myself away from "editing" and more toward "collaborative".

 

 

[Miss Tick]

Back when I worked for a newspaper, I heard a story about some famous journalist who could apparently edit his own work. I can't remember his name, but I must have been impressed with the concept, because I remember the story. I currently work as a writer and editor and I have personally not encountered any work that didn't need editing. Of course writers should both revise and proofread their own work, preferably quite a while after they have written something, but that's never enough. Writers tend to see what they had hoped to write rather than what they actually wrote. They also become attached to particular sentences that may not actually look that great within a piece of writing, or to a particular structure that really needs changing. Everyone benefits from editing, and almost everyone actually needs editing. That fact doesn't mean that the person is a cr*p writer.

 

Yes! I believe it. Now I have to get it into her subconscious so that she thinks it is her idea.

 

I'm feeling less than expert in this area because I have never been a strong writer and am guilty of all the bolded. In fact it even limits my posting on WTM because once it is out in the forum it never sounds the same as it did in my head.

 

Do you present editing to your kids as just a natural step in the process? Do you try to limit your edits (for your kids) to something not overwhelming like just grammar and spelling? Or do you talk about everything you see so that they can incorporate it all at once? Do you have a second go-round then with the edited piece?

 

I'm not planning to edit everything they write, but I do want the idea of editing to become a non-issue.

 

[PeterPan]

You wouldn't want your own work corrected and measured against a standard about which you hadn't been informed, so I don't think it's very reasonable to do that to the child.  The editing becomes capricious and has no end at that point.  There should be clear things you were targeting, clear goals, so she herself can work with you and see how she did.  You can BOTH write the assignment and then trade papers and let her correct yours!  You can't do that when you haven't defined the criteria you're looking for.   ;)

 

Our students are not professional writers, are not being paid to have their work torn up or perfected, and there is *debate* in the writing community as to whether carrying down a professional writing model to young students is appropriate.  I'm simply saying we can acknowledge that debate and choose where we want to fall.

 

Btw, my dd has usually produced pretty clean drafts.  The more tight the explanations, the more careful her pre-writing process, the cleaner her draft.  I think it's important not to be capricious and spill red ink simply because we can.  The more complex the project, the more likely she is to turn out an "ugly draft," and ugly drafts became fine to me once I realized that's what she was doing.  That's why I suggested that if you have a dc whose work, in general, doesn't seem to need a lot of editing, you might try stepping up the complexity of the assignment.  That's where my dd has been.  I just don't think it's needful to tear someone up simply because you can.  Give them a more challenging assignment, with clear expectations and criteria of what you're looking for, and then work with them to edit together.  

[PeterPan]

Sorry, I added a paragraph to my previous post.   :)

 

Remember too, a lot of their writing at this stage is about voice.  

[Miss Tick]

You wouldn't want your own work corrected and measured against a standard about which you hadn't been informed, so I don't think it's very reasonable to do that to the child.  The editing becomes capricious and has no end at that point.  There should be clear things you were targeting, clear goals, so she herself can work with you and see how she did.  You can BOTH write the assignment and then trade papers and let her correct yours!  You can't do that when you haven't defined the criteria you're looking for.   ;)

 

Our students are not professional writers, are not being paid to have their work torn up or perfected, and there is *debate* in the writing community as to whether carrying down a professional writing model to young students is appropriate.  I'm simply saying we can acknowledge that debate and choose where we want to fall.

 

Excellent points. I bet she would be more receptive if I said I want to check spelling and a short, set list of grammar points - not make changes to the flow of your story! That would give us a place to start at least. It sounds so obvious when you say it, but it hadn't crossed my mind.  See, I need some kind of real-time "life editor" to sit next to me and suggest changes and corrections real time. I will try letting her correct my paper as a separate experiment, it has a lot of potential.

[Junie]

You wouldn't want your own work corrected and measured against a standard about which you hadn't been informed, so I don't think it's very reasonable to do that to the child.  The editing becomes capricious and has no end at that point.  There should be clear things you were targeting, clear goals, so she herself can work with you and see how she did.  You can BOTH write the assignment and then trade papers and let her correct yours!  You can't do that when you haven't defined the criteria you're looking for.   ;)

 

Our students are not professional writers, are not being paid to have their work torn up or perfected, and there is *debate* in the writing community as to whether carrying down a professional writing model to young students is appropriate.  I'm simply saying we can acknowledge that debate and choose where we want to fall.

 

Btw, my dd has usually produced pretty clean drafts.  The more tight the explanations, the more careful her pre-writing process, the cleaner her draft.  I think it's important not to be capricious and spill red ink simply because we can.  The more complex the project, the more likely she is to turn out an "ugly draft," and ugly drafts became fine to me once I realized that's what she was doing.  That's why I suggested that if you have a dc whose work, in general, doesn't seem to need a lot of editing, you might try stepping up the complexity of the assignment.  That's where my dd has been.  I just don't think it's needful to tear someone up simply because you can.  Give them a more challenging assignment, with clear expectations and criteria of what you're looking for, and then work with them to edit together.  

 

I agree with your advice.  I especially like the idea of trading papers.  (I don't have time to do that at my house -- see signature -- but it's a great idea)!

 

I actually edit differently depending on which child I'm grading.  With ds, I mark EVERYTHING, because if I don't mark it, he will assume it is correct and continue to write that way.  I've warned him that I was a copy editor, and many marks does not mean that he didn't do a good job.  He is graded by how well he did in line with his own ability.  (i.e., there could be a hundred marks, but he would still earn a B.)

 

My dds are younger.  One of them is a very creative writer... with very creative spelling.  I don't mark anything on her papers at all.  I just tell her she did a great job!

 

OP, You have gotten great advice on this thread.  Just find what works for you.

[Farrar]

One nice thing BW does is it really separates the editing and revision processes. In my house, editing is something that has to be done for any piece of finished writing - we also do a good bit of process writing, which is to say, writing for practicing writing or for showing we're thinking or learning about something else. I don't usually edit that writing. I occasionally edit just a couple of things on it that we're working on or that are really egregious. Mostly I try to leave it alone. But editing for a real paper or a writing project that we're taking all the way through all the "steps of writing" is not negotiable at all. A piece of finished writing needs to have correct spelling, mechanics, etc. That's the final step in the process. And there's nothing personal in it. Proper nouns just have to be capitalized. If you forgot, oh well, but you just have to fix it.

 

On the other hand, revisions is changing the structure, the language, the voice, the style, etc. That stuff is more optional. We do it, but I do feel like they have to have a say. Part of the goal is for them to learn how to slay their own darlings. If I always do it, no wonder it seems cruel and horrible to them. One method we use is for me to ask questions instead of saying what I think should happen or be changed. So instead of me saying, hey, why don't you move this over there or hey, you need to add this explanation, I'll put in questions like, what does this mean and does this have to do with the topic of this paragraph and can you tell me more about this. And they go through and answer the questions. A BW method that has worked for us a few times is where you break the whole writing up by sentences and then rearrange them. That way, you get them into an order that makes sense. Ds likes that method a lot (sometimes it's not the right take, but it's a good one for some writing issues).

[Miss Tick]

One nice thing BW does is it really separates the editing and revision processes. In my house, editing is something that has to be done for any piece of finished writing - we also do a good bit of process writing, which is to say, writing for practicing writing or for showing we're thinking or learning about something else. I don't usually edit that writing. I occasionally edit just a couple of things on it that we're working on or that are really egregious. Mostly I try to leave it alone. But editing for a real paper or a writing project that we're taking all the way through all the "steps of writing" is not negotiable at all. A piece of finished writing needs to have correct spelling, mechanics, etc. That's the final step in the process. And there's nothing personal in it. Proper nouns just have to be capitalized. If you forgot, oh well, but you just have to fix it.

 

On the other hand, revisions is changing the structure, the language, the voice, the style, etc. That stuff is more optional. We do it, but I do feel like they have to have a say. Part of the goal is for them to learn how to slay their own darlings. If I always do it, no wonder it seems cruel and horrible to them. One method we use is for me to ask questions instead of saying what I think should happen or be changed. So instead of me saying, hey, why don't you move this over there or hey, you need to add this explanation, I'll put in questions like, what does this mean and does this have to do with the topic of this paragraph and can you tell me more about this. And they go through and answer the questions. A BW method that has worked for us a few times is where you break the whole writing up by sentences and then rearrange them. That way, you get them into an order that makes sense. Ds likes that method a lot (sometimes it's not the right take, but it's a good one for some writing issues).

 

Hmm, yes, I've been conflating editing and revising. Sometimes I have trouble getting them to the point where they feel "done" enough for editing. I'm thinking this is a result of my attempt not to be too constraining and instead giving an assignment that is too open-ended.

 

A revision-only project might be fun to try. Write a long paragraph about an event and then try it from another point of view.

[Miss Tick]

One thing that is clear from all your responses (Thank you!) is that I need to find a resource to do more educating of myself - clear expectations, dividing the whole writing process from start to finish into smaller steps, what is a reasonable size of project at this stage, clever ways to make editing just part of the whole process, etc. These are all things that make perfect sense but I have not been incorporating.

[Pen]

Some parts of editing have to do with conformity to standard ways of expressing oneself in English, or in whatever type of English the country where one is uses--or the English used by the style manual for one's publication in some cases, and unless something is poetry or meant to deviate from the standard, that seems to me to be necessary, at least for school writing. That is, the child, unless writing poetry or something to be equally creative and anything goes, does not really have the option of taking of leaving corrections if the corrections are correct.

 

Some parts of editing (or revision) have to do with making writing clearer, or in some way "better."  These parts, can be up to the author of whether to accept them or not.  And in some cases, the author's original "voice" may even be better (livelier, more interesting, more personal seeming) than the editing would render it.  And how something should be revised/edited can depend on many factors, with, usually, a multitude of possibilities that could be chosen.  So another interesting exercise can be to take a sentence (or paragraph) and write the same basic sentence (or paragraph) many different possible ways--not changing major things like pov, but just the way the ideas are expressed, through word choice, and so on.

 

In addition to Bravewriter, I think when it comes to editing and revision processes that the Culham Writing Traits approach can be helpful.

 

If she would allow it, you might also consider posting some of her writing here for specific ideas on what might be done.

[PeterPan]

If you're having issues with punctuation, spelling, etc, remember you can do dictation and editing (proofreading) workbooks as well. I did a TON of dictation with dd over the years and occasionally did editing workbooks with her.  Once she could do it for a workbook, I could at least make it a part of the tidying processing she could do for herself.  So that's how we were taking care of untidiness.  Structural issues you can head off with pre-instruction.  (keyword outlines, graphic organizers, mind maps using Inspiration software, whatever)