DS just cannot learn math.

[Michelle T]

DS is 12, diagnosed with dyscalculia, ADHD and severe visual/spatial processing deficits.

 

He can do double digit addition and subtraction on his own. He can do single digit multiplication and division on his own. Every single math concept beyond that is too much for him, he barely understands and certainly cannot do these problems on his own.

 

I've been working through the Key to Fractions books with him, figuring we'd try and move on. He seems to understand the concepts as I guide him through, but he still cannot do any of it on his own. He simply cannot remember how to do the problems.

 

So, what do I do with this DS and math? I am hesitant to go back to a 3rd grade level, although that appears to be where he is at, as he already hates math so intensely and feels badly about how he struggles. Yet how can I go on when he clearly can't do it on his own? Even if he appears to finally grasp a concept after I guide him through it over and over, he completely forgets it right away.

 

Any suggestions for me? Due to his terrible visual/spatial processing, programs that rely on manipulatives are a no-go for him, they just confuse him more. And watching videos, such as MUS, only confused him further.

 

I'm discouraged.

Michelle T

[EKS]

This sounds so difficult for both of you.

 

What programs have you tried? Have there been any aspects of those programs that seemed to work? What are your son's strengths? What are your educational goals for your son? What are his goals?

 

How is he in the verbal realm? If this is a strength (or at least not a weakness) maybe Saxon would work? It relies more on words to get concepts across and maybe the incremental approach with tons of review might work? My 12 yo has dyslexia, which made learning grammar very difficult. I found that Hake grammar (which uses the Saxon incremental approach with tons of review) really worked to help him to retain the concepts even after a 4 month break. That had never happened before. When he bogged down I just did the lessons over two days.

 

The reason I was thinking about educational goals is that sometimes I find it helpful to figure out where I want my son to be education-wise in x number of years and then work backwards. What would be ideal given his LDs? What would be the bare minimum?

[Michelle T]

This sounds so difficult for both of you.

 

What programs have you tried? Have there been any aspects of those programs that seemed to work? What are your son's strengths? What are your educational goals for your son? What are his goals?

 

How is he in the verbal realm? If this is a strength (or at least not a weakness) maybe Saxon would work? It relies more on words to get concepts across and maybe the incremental approach with tons of review might work? My 12 yo has dyslexia, which made learning grammar very difficult. I found that Hake grammar (which uses the Saxon incremental approach with tons of review) really worked to help him to retain the concepts even after a 4 month break. That had never happened before. When he bogged down I just did the lessons over two days.

 

The reason I was thinking about educational goals is that sometimes I find it helpful to figure out where I want my son to be education-wise in x number of years and then work backwards. What would be ideal given his LDs? What would be the bare minimum?

 

 

DS is much stronger in his verbal processing than visual. Most kids like him have good rote memory skills, but not my DS, his are terrible.

 

We have tried MUS, Singapore, MCP, Mastering Mathematics (a special ed curriculum from Steck-Vaughn, Moving With Math, and others I am probably forgetting.

 

I've thought about Saxon, but not sure how he'd do with each lesson covering a variety of topics, rather than just sticking with one concept through mastery (although DS has yet to "master" any math concept). He has always expressed a preference for mastery over incremental, although I'm not sure even he knows what would be best.

 

In terms of educational goals, I expect DS will either go into a trade, or something that does not require a lot of higher education. His goals change fairly frequently. At the moment, he usually says he wants to do something with graphic design. Ironic, considering his visual processing difficulties.

 

I will take another look at Saxon. He'd have to go back to the 3rd or 4th grade level though, which would be tough on his pride.

Michelle T

[sandellie4]

Have you considered working a bit on his visual-spatial processing skills? We have a child with NLD and took almost a year "off" math (she just did review of what she knew so she wouldn't forget everything) and worked with books from Critical Thinking books (the very beginning ones, with the student searching for pictures that match, etc.) and then when she became more proficient at those activities, we used Critical Thinking Building Skills computer disks. We also purchased the Lexia Cross Trainer program, which is almost entirely visual-spatial problem solving, and we had her work on Nancy Drew mystery computer games, which have lots of visual-spatial puzzles to solve. After that, we did some real-life math (Steck-Vaughn). She's no math whiz or anything, but she is currently working, slowly, through Teaching Textbooks pre-algebra. She's gone further than we anticipated and does know a lot of functional math.

 

One of the things I've had to do is to talk her through ALL algorithms, usually numerous times. Then when she seems to have them, I have HER talk them through herself. I sit with her while she does this so I can provide correction if she skips a step (oooohhh, I wouldn't do THAT next, if I were you...of course, I'm NOT you...maybe you want to suffer a grisly death at the hands of a math problem...well, that's YOUR decision, I suppose...). Everything is verbal, absolutely everything. We also work on white boards so any mistakes can be easily erased (she says she HATES when the mistakes are STARING at her). I try to redirect her as soon as a mistake has been made, before the whole problem is wrong, as she gets overwhelmed and becomes convinced she can't do it. We also work on word problems, simple ones, and she talks through them. Then I have her write her own and she solves them on another day. The word problems, to me, are really important. If she's not going very far in math, and she's not, then I would like her to be able to solve simple word problems so she's thinking in math, rather than just performing algorithms. I think it will help her in whatever she decides to do for a job, and in independent living skills, too.

 

It's hard...hang in there. :grouphug:

 

Sandy

[Miss Sherry]

What is NLD ? I have a child struggling with math also. Also, where did you find the Nancy Drew program ?

[sandellie4]

NLD has a very strong visual-spatial component and issues with math and also reading *comprehension.* If you would like more information, I'd recommend you paying a visit to: http://www.nldontheweb.org/.

 

One of the things I'd like to caution you about is the bleak outcome predicted by much of the older information on NLD (especially from Rourke and Sue Thompson). A lot of this information was based on individuals who'd had no intervention.

 

Then Nancy Drew mystery programs are all over the place; we bought ours cheap from eBay, but they can be purchased new at Best Buy and other stores that carry computer games.

 

Sandy

[Miss Sherry]

Thanks for the information.

Is there a specific Nancy Drew program I should look for ? Or is there just one to choose from ? I am going to look for it at Best Buy tomorrow. I need to go there tomorrow anyway.

[sandellie4]

There are lots of Nancy Drew programs. We tend to like the earlier versions the best because they are a little less exciting (some of the later ones are overwhelming for our daughter; they're more exciting, I suppose). The earlier versions are also much less expensive, which means you could try one out and just see if they appeal to your child. When I go to Best Buy, I look for older ones in jewel cases on the sale rack. If your child finds the program too difficult, you might want to try them along with her. I remember for the first one, I had to look up solutions/tips online and then sit with her and do some "leading" in the right direction. Now she does them independently.

 

Sandy

[Michelle T]

It means "Non-Verbal learning Disability"

 

 

I usually just say he has severe visual/spatial processing deficits, but technically, he IS diagnosed with NVLD. Along with ADHD, and dyscalculia.

 

Thanks for the suggestions and replies her, you guys are giving me hope and plenty to research!

Michelle T

[Michelle T]

Is this a computer program, or something you need to hire a therapist for? What specific skills does it work on? Is it reasonably interesting (my DS is EXTREMELY resistant to anything he considers "dumb", "boring", or "stupid")?

Michelle T

[Misty]

Have you looked at RightStart Math? It's a good program for children who struggle with math. I can't say enough good about it. It helped my daughter overcome her math difficulties. I believe she has dyscalculia or something. She is about 1-2 years behind in math and still struggles with the simplest things despite having a high IQ, which was tested many years ago. She reads and has language expression at adult level, but math is a foreign language to her... A language she will never TRULY master. But RightStart has definitely helped her improve and understand. She is finally memorizing the math facts using the games in the program.

 

Hope this helps!

 

http://www.alabacus.com

[sandellie4]

This is a computer program, and from what you're saying, I'm thinking it might not be interesting enough. It presents visual-spatial challenging, starting from very low ability and then moves up in small increments. It has helped our daughter immensely; however, she is very agreeable to practice, even rote practice, if she thinks it will help her. She is super compliant. Maybe the Building Thinking Skills computer programs (from Critical Thinking) would work better?

 

Sandy

 

 

Is this a computer program, or something you need to hire a therapist for? What specific skills does it work on? Is it reasonably interesting (my DS is EXTREMELY resistant to anything he considers "dumb", "boring", or "stupid")?

Michelle T

[Michelle T]

This is a computer program, and from what you're saying, I'm thinking it might not be interesting enough. It presents visual-spatial challenging, starting from very low ability and then moves up in small increments. It has helped our daughter immensely; however, she is very agreeable to practice, even rote practice, if she thinks it will help her. She is super compliant. Maybe the Building Thinking Skills computer programs (from Critical Thinking) would work better?

 

Sandy

 

 

My son is NOT compliant, although he stops short of being defiant or oppositional. But he is not willing to do many things he feels are dumb or boring, and is quite capable of arguing until the cows come home.

 

Sigh. It makes finding curriculum that works for him much harder. He is not really interested in "getting better", he just doesn't want to do mental work.

Michelle T

[LizzyBee]

I came across something today and remembered this post. Lindamood-Bell has a math program. I knew of Lindamood-Bell for their phonemic awareness and reading programs, but had no idea they have a math program, too. It's called On Cloud Nine Math Program, and you can buy a kit for home use.

 

Here is the description:

The Lindamood-Bell On Cloud Nine Math Program is geared to developing the ability to connect imagery to language to express mathematical concepts. The program uses manipulatives to develop concepts for reasoning and problem solving with numbers. Beginning with the most basic concepts of counting, adding, and subtracting, the steps progress to word problems, multiplication, division, fractions, and decimals.

 

I know you said MUS and manipulatives didn't work, but knowing LB's reputation for their remedial language programs, their math program just might be worth trying.

[LizzyBee]

I found where you can buy it:

 

https://shop.ganderpublishing.com/IW_Products.m4p.pvx?;MULTI_ITEM_SUBMIT

[Greta Lea]

I DID have to put him WAYYYY back in math, but he was SO happy that I did. He truly wanted to be able to learn and do math, but NOT with me holding his hand like a "baby" (his words) all the way through.

 

He is 14 1/2 yo now and is about 1/2 way through Teaching Textbooks grade 6. He LOVES this program. It's been the best thing we've ever purchased for school stuff for him.

 

My ds is like your ds in that when I'm working with him he DOES get the concept, but he needs constant review in *small* doses to retain the concept and even the steps to multi-step problems. Teaching Textbooks provide all this for him.

 

The other plus to Teaching Textbooks is that it if he comes to a review problem and he can't remember how to do it, we just look in the table of contents to see which lesson the concept was introduced and he watches that lesson again. He consistanly makes 90% or above on his daily work.

 

He also still does daily math fact drills at the Math U See website *and* I allow him to used a multiplication chart while doing his math.

 

HTH

[Michelle T]

I DID have to put him WAYYYY back in math, but he was SO happy that I did. He truly wanted to be able to learn and do math, but NOT with me holding his hand like a "baby" (his words) all the way through.

 

He is 14 1/2 yo now and is about 1/2 way through Teaching Textbooks grade 6. He LOVES this program. It's been the best thing we've ever purchased for school stuff for him.

 

My ds is like your ds in that when I'm working with him he DOES get the concept, but he needs constant review in *small* doses to retain the concept and even the steps to multi-step problems. Teaching Textbooks provide all this for him.

 

The other plus to Teaching Textbooks is that it if he comes to a review problem and he can't remember how to do it, we just look in the table of contents to see which lesson the concept was introduced and he watches that lesson again. He consistanly makes 90% or above on his daily work.

 

He also still does daily math fact drills at the Math U See website *and* I allow him to used a multiplication chart while doing his math.

 

HTH

 

The lower grades of TT are currently only for PC, and we only have a Mac. I emailed them, and they said they should have the lower levels for Mac next year sometime. I expect I will probably switch to TT as soon as they are available.

 

In the meantime, I am still trying to figure out what to do.

Michelle T