Delta/Epsilon Camp -- Describe Your Mathy Kid

[SeaConquest]

Since we added Beast to our lineup, Sacha now says that math is his favorite subject (previously, it was science). He's always been math-intuitive, but I am not sure that I would call him mathy.

 

We started talking about what we want to do next summer, and I thought about mentioning Delta Camp to him, but, I am not sure that it would be a fit. He does talk about mathematical stuff randomly, and plays the Prodigy math game for fun, but I think of it more in the context of his overall giftedness (and his love of wizards/fantasy) vs. being especially mathy. 

 

I would hate to suggest a camp like that if it wasn't a good fit, especially since he's had such a great time at the Jewish Community Center camp the past two summers. If you had a kid attend a Delta or Epsilon-type camp, or if you would characterize your DC as mathy from a young age, what was he/she like around Kindy/1st age? 

[quark]

Since we added Beast to our lineup, Sacha now says that math is his favorite subject (previously, it was science). He's always been math-intuitive, but I am not sure that I would call him mathy.

 

We started talking about what we want to do next summer, and I thought about mentioning Delta Camp to him, but, I am not sure that it would be a fit. He does talk about mathematical stuff randomly, and plays the Prodigy math game for fun, but I think of it more in the context of his overall giftedness (and his love of wizards/fantasy) vs. being especially mathy. 

 

I would hate to suggest a camp like that if it wasn't a good fit, especially since he's had such a great time at the Jewish Community Center camp the past two summers. If you had a kid attend a Delta or Epsilon-type camp, or if you would characterize your DC as mathy from a young age, what was he/she like around Kindy/1st age? 

 

SeaConquest, my 2 cents.

 

Kindy, 1st, 2nd was a time for many, many interests for DS and math was one of them...but I sincerely think that camp officials will clearly see how interconnected an interest in science is with an interest in math or reading or even geography/ history...I wouldn't choose just based on doubts on that score for a kid still so very young.

 

My kid loves math but we did only one online math camp for middle and high schoolers when DS was in elementary (Euclid Lab, thanks to one of mathwonk's posts) and that was a fantastic experience for DS to learn how to formulate and write down his research but for other reasons, we didn't repeat the process. We are very picky about spending money and DS likes to have a lot of control over his summers and so far he hasn't asked for a camp experience either. So, take this fwiw...

 

My understanding about camps at such a very young age is not so much what the kid already does but what he/ she is willing to do and how he/ she learns best. It sounds like S is very interested in math and that might be sufficient. An interest in observing patterns will be helpful, a willingness to work on puzzles that are a little out of his comfort zone, examples of solving puzzles in different ways not stated in a solutions manual for e.g. (shows creativity), collaboration with other campers, coming up with questions for parents to solve, intellectual curiosity and a willingness to speak up (but maybe young campers will be given more support in this area), an overall excellent attitude etc is what I would look for. DS displayed all of this and yet we didn't choose to apply due to aforementioned $$ reasons.

 

Not trying to dissuade you or anything like that. I'm actually encouraging you to go for it if you can afford it and if you think he will like it (make a pros and cons list for example) because the experience might really help him find out if this is something he would like to spend more time on. He might meet camp mentors and kids he really connects with and even make a friend for life! (ETA: someone who also loves wizards...many young kids do and that doesn't mean they are less mathy!)

 

These are some of the questions Delta Camp asks, and I see that they've given so much room for a parent to explain.

How would you answer them? That might better describe S's readiness/ willingness and fit.

 

1. Describe, with examples, the applicant’s interest in math. What sorts mathematical ideas or tasks have excited him/her? When did you first notice the interest and how?
2. How does the applicant express interest in mathematics?
3. Is the applicant achieving everything he or she can in mathematics?
4. In what other subjects does the applicant express significant interest?
5. Where does the applicant usually study Math? What courses is the applicant taking?
6. Can the applicant converse about topics of interest, asking questions, listening to answers, and responding relevantly to discussion? Please provide supporting examples.
7. Does the applicant have a long attention span? Please provide supporting examples.
8. How creative is the applicant? Please describe the applicant’s creativity with examples.
9. Does the applicant meet the eligibility requirements and prerequisites? If the applicant does not currently meet the prerequisites, describe a plan for meeting them by the beginning of camp.
10. Is there anything else we should know about the applicant? Please include any information that you feel will give us a more complete picture of the applicant.

[SeaConquest]

Thanks, Quark. This is very helpful. We do have a local math circle that I had hoped to join with Sacha (run by a fellow boardie), but they raised the age minimum to 7 (S won't be 7 until January) and it requires parental involvement (which is problematic with a crazy toddler in tow). The other math circle in SD is for older kids to prepare for math competitions.

 

It's so hard to know at that age. He knows that math is the language of science, so I feel like his interest isn't necessarily math for math's sake at this point, if that makes sense. I know that he likes math, feels that he is good at math, likes strategy and puzzley games, and has a very long attention span for math (science even more so), but he likes to talk about inventing things like teleportation devices or cities in the clouds/civilizations on other planets. He's very verbal and extroverted, so I don't worry about that aspect. I just think about some of the other kids on this board that are super mathy at an older age and I wonder what that looked like in the younger years. I think that this year, focusing more on BA than SM, will likely be very telling. 

[Arcadia]

Both my boys would rather go to a makerspace kind of camp at that age (5-7 years old) and even now. Their curiosity and drive for math is driven by their passion for innovation.

When looking at camps, they want to know what is the hands on offered rather than what is the discussions opportunities offered.

So YMMV depending on kids needs rather than abilities.

[quark]

I just think about some of the other kids on this board that are super mathy at an older age and I wonder what that looked like in the younger years.

 

Yes, of course, I am curious too! :laugh: But it's going to look different with every kid. I have a very verbal, half-intro, half-extrovert.  Others might be more intro or more extro, more or less verbal, very mathy but prefers to stay in the background etc. But it really does sound from your description of S that Delta/ Epsilon will be a good fit (based on what friends whose kids have attended have told me about their kids).

 

I used to always think of DS as not being as "out there" as some other kids I hear about and I used to wonder the same about older kids and how they presented when they were younger. But anything DS has attended or taken has usually been good for him regardless. There's always something to learn and if something isn't a good fit we learn from that experience the next time we shop for opportunities.

 

I do understand how much of an expensive experiment something like D/E Camp is. But if you don't mind the expense and paperwork I don't think it will be a complete loss based on how you describe your delightful S. Good luck!

 

[lewelma]

 

 

what was he/she like around Kindy/1st age?

 

In K (age 5-6), ds liked to ride bikes, and go to museums, and paint.  We played shop, estimated numbers of birds, made up story problems with numbers, did fractions with cooking, etc -- just a lot of real life stuff. As far as I was concerned, he was advanced but just really a regular kid.  In 1st (age 6-7) he started to do calculations in his head, mostly large addition problems, and I taught him about multiplication and division.  He hated subtraction and would not do it. :001_rolleyes:  We were still not doing any curriculum. By age 6.5 I started to get worried that his addition skills and multiplication skills were growing much faster than his subtraction (he could not do 9-5, but could add 365+698 in his head) and thought that we might struggle to get him in a curriculum if we waited much longer.  So I bought Singapore Math.  I started him in the 2nd grade book when he was in 1st grade.  Well, it was an insult as far as he was concerned, and he would not do it. So I bought the 3rd grade book, and he did the subtraction section and then asked for the next book the following month.  So I bought him the 4th grade book and got the Intensive Practice.  Within a month, he refused to do any more of the 4th grade workbook, and started in on the IP.  He was 6 3/4 at this time.  And within a month of that, he refused to use the textbook, or get any instruction from me, or do any drill in the IP.  He just did the word problems in the 4th grade book.  He kept with this book until he was about 7 3/4.

 

So in K and the beginning of 1st, my kid was really just a kid.  It was not until the end of 1st grade that we got a hint of the writing on the wall. And then his acceleration accelerated each year, if that makes sense.

 

Part of what made ds unusual was his desire to figure it out on his own.  From a very early age he considered reading the textbook to be 'cheating'.  He was also very driven, and at times this was excessive enough for me to be very concerned.  I remember one time at age 7 where he missed a problem, so he punished himself by giving himself 2 more hours of math to do.  By 9, he would cry and rage over AoPS, but would refuse any help. He would work for hours at a time.   By 13 he would spend up to 10 hours on a single problem, by 14 it was 20 hours.  But because it has always been self-driven, he did not burnout.

 

Hope that is the kind of stuff you want.  Happy to tell more stories! :001_smile: 

 

Ruth in NZ

[MEmama]

Mine at that age would come home from a full day at ps and beg to do math so he "could learn something!". Then he'd spend an hour or two "playing" with Math Mammoth. :)

 

He was definitely math and science oriented from the beginning. Always trying to figure out percentages, fractions of things, cost comparisons (going to the grocery was always fun for him), weight using a scale and estimating, and always converting back and forth using metric and imperial measurements (we lived in eastern Canada where both were used interchangeably, which he found amusing). He has always favored the metric system. He sees the world through a scientific lens, very different than the way I process things, and manipulating numbers has always been instinctive.

 

Mechanics, too, always made sense to him. At 4, while describing a certain function of the environmentally conscious car he was designing in his head (a process that went from ages 3-5 in earnest), he perfectly described fuel cells, a concept he certainly hadn't been exposed to. At 5 he did the same with GPS as a system he would use to assist certain safety functions of his vehicle. He was very excited to learn that it already existed, though not in the capacity he would use it for.

 

It took until age 11 when he started algebra to start getting over the idea that Ruth mentioned about reading a text as cheating. He would much rather figure things out on his own than hear it from someone else. Up until algebra, he pretty much completed all of Math Mammoth on intuition alone.

 

He has always been an analytical Big Thinker. He doesn't manipulate things with his hands, but sees them in his head. By 7 deep space was a huge, all consuming interest and that continues to astrophysics today. He has always had a limitless attention span for things that interest him and has an unwavering belief in himself and his abilities.

[Dmmetler]

Not as much mathy as "sciencey", but for DD, at age 5-6 she was fascinated with words, read stacks of books, and generally treated math as something to get done. She had a fast pace and learned quickly, but it didn't excite her. Nor, really, did science except for in books. Peer interactions were usually "let's find something to play together". She would have enjoyed a math camp or a science camp or a language camp at her level, but she also enjoyed gymnastics camp or "let's make crafts and play silly games" type camps. It wasn't nearly as necessary to be surrounded by intense kids in order to be happy.

 

At age 7 there was a major shift. She decided she was done with arithmetic and ready to move on to "real math". Science shifted from "let's read about dinosaurs, snakes, fish, birds, etc and learn piles of facts" to " how can I actually do the work with real animals?". It was at that point that she really started talking to adults and started getting people who were willing to help/mentor her. Her acceleration became purposeful and with intent and goals, and her drive was for people to help her on that way. It was kind of like watching the world's smallest grad student, and her most purposeful, best peer interactions were with people at that place in life, too-usually grad students and PhDs. She loved academic competitions because she met kids "like me"-but didn't seem dissatisfied with local kids if she had a common interest with them.

 

At age 9-10 there has been another shift. She's now very comfortable with herself academically, but much less so socially. Her local friends now just aren't enough. She craves a meeting of the minds with someone who really understands, but also is on the same developmental level. They don't have to be passionate about grammar, snakes, mythology, or game theory, they just need to have that high level interest in SOMETHING and be close to the same age. Most kids her age seem "flat" to her. (That's her term-that there is no depth there). That's why we dove into academic camps last summer, and I'm glad we did. That's also why we're now pursuing EEP and other options that would give her a cohort of academically intense kids. Now that she has routes to pursue her interest (and has enough connections and mentors in various places that she's pretty confident that doors won't close on her), she's really, really focused on the social piece. The academic intensity hasn't slacked, but the goals have moved on.

 

 

One of my early childhood Ed mentors had a saying "It's not a want, it's a need" -that is, you may want preschollers to sit still and not blurt out non sequiturs, but at that age, those behaviors are a need, and you have to work with the need. Meet the need, and the child is able to learn. In DD's case, I've found that's true.

[WinsomeCreek]

My mathy kid was a bike riding, trampoline flipping bouncy boy (sensory seeking). But in the midst of his activities his mind was rummaging through relationships. He made change and played with money at 3, figured out multiplication at 4, had an origami phase (oy, the papers!!), by 5-6 was working his way through EPGY and life of Fred fractions on his own, that I now realize was an attempt to get somewhere more interesting. He would have loved delta camp!! I do think the camp works best for kids interested and passionate, not just good at math. I don't think the delta campers need to have a lot under their belt so much as possess the ability to grasp what they're exposed to and find it fun. I personally would not spend the money in an attempt to get a kid interested. It is a lot of math all day for two weeks with kids excited about doing just that.