Slightly frustrated with French...

[Sahamamama]

This is mostly an expression of frustration... not really sure if I'm asking anything? :tongue_smilie:

 

I "had French" in junior high school and high school. My husband did likewise. But in typical American fashion, we haven't really "used" it, we haven't retained much of it, and I am now frustrated with trying to find a way for our children to "learn" it as homeschoolers. Honestly, it seems the only way to really make any progress is to have a well-stocked bank vault. That is, be able to afford private lessons. Or foreign travel.

 

We have used Ecoutez, Parlez for a few years, first the CDs alone, then again (to review) with the workbooks. It's good for what it is (an introduction), and it has made a positive impression on the girls. They always enjoy hearing, speaking, and learning French (writing it, eh, not so much!).

 

We plan to finish up the review + workbook combination with our 5th grader this upcoming year, and continue with the usual sequence with our rising 3rd graders. If we finish EP for the oldest, we'll begin First Start French. I think that will be okay for 5th grade. We've also used online MP3s of the French Bible, and other audio resources (e.g., French songs).

 

This year I also plan to do some copywork-studied dictation with my 5th grader. She will (1) copy a sentence; (2) translate/explain the sentence; (3) study the sentence; (4) write the sentence from dictation; and (5) compare and correct.

 

But I'm still frustrated because.... because French feels so tacked on... or kind of like we only have the ability to diligently dabble, and that bothers me. I wonder if the work is really laying any foundation at all? I suppose that if and when the girls reach another level, say a high school course, they will be familiar enough with some of the vocabulary and concepts, that they'll be better able to focus on the grammar? That is my hope, and it seems as though that is about as high a goal as we can reach. But it's still a far cry from what I'd like to do. I have no clue how to become one of those cool bilingual families, whose children flow seamlessly from English to French and back again. :coolgleamA: Sigh.

 

I'm sure it's all about investment, isn't it? Everything I see around us that offers an "opportunity" to learn French is expensive, to the point of not being feasible to maintain that for three children (with or without parents included) over any meaningful length of time. So, what to do?

[Reefgazer]

I am teaching my kids Latin (and learning along with them) because I can teach the grammar from a book effectively for a few years before I have to outsource the translation.  French, however, we outsource to a tutor.  I have not found a well designed book that allows me to teach the grammar first for a few years before I need to outsource, so we outsourced from the get-go for French.  I agree with you that expensive tutors or classes are the only way to do most foreign language effectively for most people. 

 

My kids learn Latin here as their foreign language for a whole bunch of reasons; the fact that the parent can effectively teach it with the excellent programs that are on the market is a big, fat bonus.  You might want to consider Latin as your foreign language for that reason.  If you want to keep the French, can you and a few other like-minded homeschoolers in your area band together for group tutoring, thus cutting the cost a bit for each of you?  As one alternative, is there an Alliance Francaise near you?  They usually have French I and conversational classes that are affordable, as do a few co-ops.?  My own DD greatly enjoys Duolingo, but that is in addition to her French tutoring (which is killing me because of the expense, admittedly).  I did find that Memoria Press has a curriculum called First Start French for middle schoolers (with a teacher manual and pronunciation CD) that may be a good starting point for you to teach them the grammar.  The problem is, MP has no further program to continue it after you finish their First Start French I and II books.

[mommymilkies]

I understand.  I've found Duolingo (free), watching shows/movies in French (check the audio options!  Lots have it!), and reading kids books in French helps.  My accent sucks after years of not being used, but I can fake it through some picture books.  Galore Park has excellent French resources, too, btw.  I've been less than pleased with many we've tried, but that one has been a winner. I'd worry about grammar after conversation. Breaking the Barrier has an iBook interactive version now, as well. I'm not sure about experiences around you.  We have nothing of the sort. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I think you have to drop the idea of being a bilingual family as being the "ideal" to strive for.  Unless the parents are bilingual, or the local language is different than the family language, you will not have bilingual children.  

 

WHICH IS NOT TO SAY YOUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER BE BILINGUAL!!!  But it won't happen in childhood, if it does happen.  I am bilingual.  I became bilingual around age 21 approximately.  But becoming bilingual was GREATLY aided by standard textbook language study done in high school/college.  

 

If you can get high school texts and find an AP French student who needs a little cash, you can probably advance pretty well without shelling out too much money.  But there are many studies showing that JUST READING in the target language is the fastest way to acquire language.  Obviously you need to have some small base to start from in terms of grammar before attacking a book, but if your kids already know a bit, this might be an option.  

 

There are a number of websites that do Skype language exchange.  

 

Check to see if your library has Fluent Forever... it has a lot of "language learning hacks" worth checking out.  

 

[regentrude]

I think you have to drop the idea of being a bilingual family as being the "ideal" to strive for.  Unless the parents are bilingual, or the local language is different than the family language, you will not have bilingual children.  

 

This! It is already very hard work to raise bilingual children if the parents speak another native language than the local language. Studying a foreign language that is foreign to both parents and children will not make a bilingual family without long term total immersion (i.e. living in a place where this is the local language)

 

 

 

WHICH IS NOT TO SAY YOUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER BE BILINGUAL!!!  But it won't happen in childhood, if it does happen.  I am bilingual.  I became bilingual around age 21 approximately.  But becoming bilingual was GREATLY aided by standard textbook language study done in high school/college. 

 

Yes, this too.

I studied two foreign languages in school, Russian from 3rd grade on, English from 5th grade on. I emerged from high school with the ability to read original literature and converse with native speakers, in each of the languages. I continued studying English at university, reading, watching films and eventually moving to an English speaking country and developing true proficiency. I am bilingual now, as an adult.

 

My advice for foreign language homeschooling: Be patient and have realistic expectations. Language learning is a process that takes many years. The typical model prevalent in the US of studying a language in high school only, with a teacher who is not fluent herself, will not lead to fluency. Middle school language learning can lay the groundwork. But at some point, if the parents are not fluent, progress will stall unless you outsource to a fluent teacher.

 

We have been through this with French. Several years of study at home, books, grammar workbooks, CDs, videos, easy readers, vocab cards. Added a native speaker as tutor after a few years. Ultimately, it required outsourcing to college classes that met four hours/week, with a fluent teacher, to make further progress.

 

Hang in there - and good luck.

[Library Momma]

I am teaching my kids Latin (and learning along with them) because I can teach the grammar from a book effectively for a few years before I have to outsource the translation.  French, however, we outsource to a tutor.  I have not found a well designed book that allows me to teach the grammar first for a few years before I need to outsource, so we outsourced from the get-go for French.  I agree with you that expensive tutors or classes are the only way to do most foreign language effectively for most people. 

 

My kids learn Latin here as their foreign language for a whole bunch of reasons; the fact that the parent can effectively teach it with the excellent programs that are on the market is a big, fat bonus.  You might want to consider Latin as your foreign language for that reason.  If you want to keep the French, can you and a few other like-minded homeschoolers in your area band together for group tutoring, thus cutting the cost a bit for each of you?  As one alternative, is there an Alliance Francaise near you?  They usually have French I and conversational classes that are affordable, as do a few co-ops.?  My own DD greatly enjoys Duolingo, but that is in addition to her French tutoring (which is killing me because of the expense, admittedly).  I did find that Memoria Press has a curriculum called First Start French for middle schoolers (with a teacher manual and pronunciation CD) that may be a good starting point for you to teach them the grammar.  The problem is, MP has no further program to continue it after you finish their First Start French I and II books.

 

I grew up learning Hebrew, Spanish and Latin.  Most if not all of the colleges I applied to did not accept Latin as an admissions requirement for foreign language.  I believe it is still the same way with most schools so the op would still need to study a second language in addition to Latin.

[Sahamamama]

I am teaching my kids Latin (and learning along with them) because I can teach the grammar from a book effectively for a few years before I have to outsource the translation.  French, however, we outsource to a tutor.  I have not found a well designed book that allows me to teach the grammar first for a few years before I need to outsource, so we outsourced from the get-go for French.  I agree with you that expensive tutors or classes are the only way to do most foreign language effectively for most people. 

 

My kids learn Latin here as their foreign language for a whole bunch of reasons; the fact that the parent can effectively teach it with the excellent programs that are on the market is a big, fat bonus.  You might want to consider Latin as your foreign language for that reason.  If you want to keep the French, can you and a few other like-minded homeschoolers in your area band together for group tutoring, thus cutting the cost a bit for each of you?  As one alternative, is there an Alliance Francaise near you?  They usually have French I and conversational classes that are affordable, as do a few co-ops.?  My own DD greatly enjoys Duolingo, but that is in addition to her French tutoring (which is killing me because of the expense, admittedly).  I did find that Memoria Press has a curriculum called First Start French for middle schoolers (with a teacher manual and pronunciation CD) that may be a good starting point for you to teach them the grammar.  The problem is, MP has no further program to continue it after you finish their First Start French I and II books.

 

Thanks, reefgazer. Yeah, we do Latin, too. One more thing to be depressed about, LOL.

 

I agree with you, though, that is a bit easier to plod along with than French, because it feels like a different experience in terms of our goals and expectations.

 

I will look for an AF near us. I haven't found any co-op near us that offers meaningful French at an affordable price (for three kids, with or without a parent). We plan to work our way into First Start French about halfway through 5th grade for the oldest.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sahamamama]

I think you have to drop the idea of being a bilingual family as being the "ideal" to strive for.  Unless the parents are bilingual, or the local language is different than the family language, you will not have bilingual children.  

 

WHICH IS NOT TO SAY YOUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER BE BILINGUAL!!!  But it won't happen in childhood, if it does happen.  I am bilingual.  I became bilingual around age 21 approximately.  But becoming bilingual was GREATLY aided by standard textbook language study done in high school/college.  

 

If you can get high school texts and find an AP French student who needs a little cash, you can probably advance pretty well without shelling out too much money.  But there are many studies showing that JUST READING in the target language is the fastest way to acquire language.  Obviously you need to have some small base to start from in terms of grammar before attacking a book, but if your kids already know a bit, this might be an option.  

 

There are a number of websites that do Skype language exchange.  

 

Check to see if your library has Fluent Forever... it has a lot of "language learning hacks" worth checking out.  

 

Thank you, Monica. I think I posted mostly because I need to hear that the textbook work does help, even in this situation (i.e., parents are not bilingual in a target language and local language is not the target language). It's good to tuck away that encouragement, as well as the thought that it's okay to simply make as much progress as we are able to make.

 

I will say, we do all enjoy all the French we study and hear and practice with. We have only begun to get into French idioms. This is interesting, to say the least, and if nothing else is accomplished other than the girls understand some small aspect of another culture, I will learn to be content.

 

http://www.omniglot.com/language/idioms/french.php

 

I will also consider your other ideas and see if there is a way to move along in those areas -- reading, Skype, Fluent Forever (haven't seen this before), and a local French student. Merci beaucoup. :)

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Thank you, Monica. I think I posted mostly because I need to hear that the textbook work does help, even in this situation (i.e., parents are not bilingual in a target language and local language is not the target language). It's good to tuck away that encouragement, as well as the thought that it's okay to simply make as much progress as we are able to make.

 

I will say, we do all enjoy all the French we study and hear and practice with. We have only begun to get into French idioms. This is interesting, to say the least, and if nothing else is accomplished other than the girls understand some small aspect of another culture, I will learn to be content.

 

http://www.omniglot.com/language/idioms/french.php

 

I will also consider your other ideas and see if there is a way to move along in those areas -- reading, Skype, Fluent Forever (haven't seen this before), and a local French student. Merci beaucoup. :)

Great list! If you happen to be from the fribourg Switzerland countryside, something expensive doesn't "couter les yeux de la tete" instead it's "couter la peau des fesses"! Whenever I go visit my fribourg friend, I come home with yet another bizarre idiom...

[Reefgazer]

Hmmm, that's strange.  The schools DD has mentioned all accept Latin as a foreign language.  Maybe things have changed over the years.

I grew up learning Hebrew, Spanish and Latin.  Most if not all of the colleges I applied to did not accept Latin as an admissions requirement for foreign language.  I believe it is still the same way with most schools so the op would still need to study a second language in addition to Latin.