Rethinking Math from AoPS to ???

[MomOfABunch]

DS1 has been doing AoPS. He's just finishing up Algebra B. He wants something challenging but not AoPS next. I was planning to do AoPS all the way through so I haven't given it much thought, but I want to try and accommodate this request. Is Algebra B sufficient for Algebra 2 without AoPS intermediate Algebra? Should he do Precalc next? I'm a little confused on how to compare their courses to others.

TIA!

[AEC]

no - Algebra B (the 2nd half of their Alg1 course, Intro To Alg) completes a really thorough Alg1 class, including some topics often taught in Alg2....but it's not a substitute for an actual Alg2 class.

 

I don't suggest jumping to PreCalc w/o having done an Alg2 program someplace.

 

What is it about AoPS that he doesn't like or wants to be different?

If he's just itching to learn about something besides algebra, there's geometry, numerical analysis and c&p by AoPS or others.

Or...how about a math subject that's more applied...say, a programming course or discrete math?

 

[dereksurfs]

There are *many* excellent alternatives to AoPS going forward.  So please don't feel bad if its simply not the best fit for your DS1's next course.  

 

We went from AoPS Intro to Algebra to Jurgensen Geometry which was an fantastic choice.  DS13 just finished his Geometry course at Wilson Hill Academy and found it challenging, interesting and very enjoyable.  He thrived on the live, interactive nature of the course.  The text is a classic which masterfully weaves proofs throughout.  The teacher's instruction and support were excellent.  We liked it so much, in fact, that he is signed up for Algebra 2 there this next Fall.  WHA uses Dolciani for Algebra 1 & 2.  Its a big relief to know math is covered with exceptional instruction all the through Calculus at WHA if we decide to continue on with them.

[MomOfABunch]

Ok, that's what I thought. I didn't think Precalc was next, but I was confused by their course descriptions. He's been doing the online classes, and up until the last few weeks, the pace has been fine for him. He's been very independent and required/wanted little to no involvement from me. He says not having the videos for this class is really a problem. In the last few weeks getting the homework done on time has become an issue.

 

He was going to do the next class this summer, but now wants to do no math. Ok, I can agree to taking the summer off of math. I can't quite tell what exactly the problem is. When I sit with him, he can do the work. His grandfather (much more math inclined than me) was working with him yesterday and seemed to think that difficulty-wise the work was fine for him. No, it's not easy. But he can do it.

 

I'll check out WHA. My requirements for math are that it's thorough and a class or access to a tutor who can answer questions. So the next course should be Alg 2? He's done Alg A, B and Geometry

[Loesje22000]

As I plan to use AoPS only for Pre A and Intro A

 

I'm listening...

[MomOfABunch]

Ok, I just spent the morning reading about math options. I'm going to show Derek Owens to DS and see what he thinks. I like the self paced option with grading and support available. One question though. If we leave AoPS now, is DS done for good? As in if he does Alg 2 and Precalc with Derek Owens (or something else) would he be able to jump back into AoPS for Calc if he wanted to? Or is that a rediculious question even? Math parents, help!

[MomOfABunch]

This is from the math sticky at the top of the forum:

 

ART OF PROBLEM SOLVING ALGEBRA 2 (Level: Challenging)

Textbook: Introduction to Algebra by Richard Rusczyk. Algebra II is Chapters 14-22 of the book.

Online Class? Yes, see here. 15-weeks, fast-paced, text-based chatroom (no video or audio). The textbooks are written directly to the student and may be done (self-paced) without the online classes.

Where to buy: AoPS Bookstore (and sometimes, used on Amazon.com). In Europe? Buy from: UKMT

Teacher Guide/Additional Materials: Yes, a Solutions Guide (discount available if purchased with textbook).

Placement: Are You Ready? and Do You Need This?

 

I'm on my iPad and can't bold, but this says that Algebra 2 (now Algebra B) covers Intro to Algebra ch 14-22, which it does. I'm still confused on what class to have him do next if he leaves AoPS.

[Arcadia]

I'm on my iPad and can't bold, but this says that Algebra 2 (now Algebra B) covers Intro to Algebra ch 14-22, which it does. I'm still confused on what class to have him do next if he leaves AoPS.

The class names don't tally with public school or state standards. The class names also changed recently.

 

AoPS Algebra 1 class -> AoPS algebra A class

AoPS Algebra 2 -> AoPS algebra B class

AoPS Algebra 3 -> AoPS intermediate algebra class

 

The AoPS intro to algebra books does not cover prob & stats which is common in PS algebra 1 books

The intermediate algebra book does not have matrices and simple trigonometry that is in PS algebra 2 books. Those are in AoPS PreCalc book.

 

If he is not intending to continue with AoPS classes, the next class would be algebra 2, PreCalc and calculus.

The AoPS Calculus book is very thin compared to the rest of the series. Your son can always use it as a reference if he wants.

 

ETA:

I tally with California standards as we might put kids back for high school and/or my district's 7th grade STEM program.

[Loesje22000]

The class names don't tally with public school or state standards.

 

AoPS Algebra 1 -> algebra A

AoPS Algebra 2 -> algebra B

AoPS Algebra 3 -> intermediate algebra

 

The AoPS intro to algebra books does not cover prob & stats which is common in PS algebra 1 books

The intermediate algebra book does not have matrices and simple trigonometry that is in PS algebra 2 books. Those are in AoPS PreCalc book.

 

If he is not intending to continue with AoPS classes, the next class would be algebra 2, PreCalc and calculus.

The AoPS Calculus book is very thin compared to the rest of the series. Your son can always use it as a reference if he wants.

 

ETA:

I tally with California standards as we might put kids back for high school and/or my district's 7th grade STEM program.

Thanks!

This answers so many of my questions!

[wapiti]

IMO it is a little tricky to compare the AoPS sequence with the traditional sequence.  Course B was renamed from Algebra 2 due to this type of confusion.  My impression is that part of Intermediate Alg is needed for a complete traditional "Algebra 2" but that may depend on what one is comparing to.  I wouldn't be surprised if a student could get away with leaping from Course B to some other sequence's precalc (not AoPS), but there may be a few topics missing.

 

If he hasn't done geometry, I'd be inclined to do that next in the fall, regardless of publisher.  Before you have him sign up for another online course, be sure he gets a good-sized sample.  He may be tired of the deep thinking but ultimately he may find that other programs are boring by comparison  :tongue_smilie:.

[MomOfABunch]

The class names don't tally with public school or state standards. The class names also changed recently.

 

AoPS Algebra 1 class -> AoPS algebra A class

AoPS Algebra 2 -> AoPS algebra B class

AoPS Algebra 3 -> AoPS intermediate algebra class

 

The AoPS intro to algebra books does not cover prob & stats which is common in PS algebra 1 books

The intermediate algebra book does not have matrices and simple trigonometry that is in PS algebra 2 books. Those are in AoPS PreCalc book.

 

If he is not intending to continue with AoPS classes, the next class would be algebra 2, PreCalc and calculus.

The AoPS Calculus book is very thin compared to the rest of the series. Your son can always use it as a reference if he wants.

 

ETA:

I tally with California standards as we might put kids back for high school and/or my district's 7th grade STEM program.

Thank you, this is very helpful!

[MomOfABunch]

He may be tired of the deep thinking but ultimately he may find that other programs are boring by comparison :tongue_smilie:.

I think this is exactly what will happen, but I have to let him come to that conclusion on his own. If I force it, he will balk. So I don't want to start a new program that will make it impossible or very difficult to go back to AoPS later.

 

I may just have him take the summer off or do Number Theory or C&P at his pace and then make a decision for fall. Possibly he just needs a break.

 

His complaint that there are no corresponding videos for Intermediate Algebra is valid though. Are videos for those topics available elsewhere? Khan Academy, for example? I don't have enough math background to evaluate this.

[wapiti]

So, if he were to complete a traditional algebra 2 (probably being able to skim through parts/go quickly), where would he start upon a potential return to AoPS?  (I'm restating this for my own benefit LOL.  My ds is finishing Course A and will hopefully have geometry at school in the fall, but will then need an accredited online algebra 2 class for the following year.)

 

To try a non-Aops program next, it would probably be simplest to go with geometry.  Then on return to AoPS, he could start Intermediate Algebra.

 

Eta, I was writing while you were posting.  I bet you're right, he just needs a break.  I've been contemplating the Mathcounts course - maybe the advanced one? - for a fun option because it doesn't have any book work.

 

On the videos, I tend to find the Khan ones lacking, but I bet there are decent videos for just about any topic if he's willing to do a little searching on youtube.  There weren't any videos for Course B however, and that seemed to go ok for him, yes?

[Arcadia]

His complaint that there are no corresponding videos for Intermediate Algebra is valid though. Are videos for those topics available elsewhere? Khan Academy, for example?

AoPS doesn't have the intermediate algebra videos anywhere else. If he prefers videos, Dr Burger's videos (Thinkwell algebra 2) might work. My kids find Dr Burger's videos monotonous though when we tried the iBooks sample. My kids find Khan Academy's videos dull too. My kids are hard to please.

 

My easily bored youngest gets bored with doing AoPS without breaks. The style of the books feels same old after a while for both of them. We mix in the puzzle type competition math questions for fun which I downloaded off the internet.

[MomOfABunch]

Nope, no videos for Alg B. In the last 4-6 weeks of class, this has become an issue. Not unworkable, but he's been complaining. I've had to coach him through utilizing the online community and emailing the teacher.

[Arcadia]

I've been contemplating the Mathcounts course - maybe the advanced one? - for a fun option because it doesn't have any book work.

Mathcounts handbooks has the sample questions

2014-2015 http://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/u1706/14-15_MATHCOUNTS_School_Handbook_With_Answers_1.pdf

2013-2014 http://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/u49/13-14%20MC%20Handbook.pdf

2012-2013 https://www.nsbe.org/getmedia/0ffcafbe-ab25-40e1-9484-e6da763a895d/12-13_MC_Handbook.pdf.aspx

 

I don't know if there is overlap of questions over the years but my kids had fun trying them.

 

Also this year's problems and solutions

http://www.mathcounts.org/past-competitions

[wapiti]

Mathcounts handbooks has the questions

2014-2015 http://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/u1706/14-15_MATHCOUNTS_School_Handbook_With_Answers_1.pdf

2013-2014 http://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/u49/13-14%20MC%20Handbook.pdf

2012-2013 https://www.nsbe.org/getmedia/0ffcafbe-ab25-40e1-9484-e6da763a895d/12-13_MC_Handbook.pdf.aspx

 

I don't know if there is overlap of questions over the years but my kids had fun trying them.

 

Do the Mathcounts courses at AoPS utilize the handbook questions as assignments (aside from the weekly online challenge homework)?

[Arcadia]

Do the Mathcounts courses at AoPS utilize the handbook questions as assignments (aside from the weekly online challenge homework)?

Don't know about the AoPS classes. My kids just do the questions randomly for their entertainment on road trips.

[go_go_gadget]

Before you have him sign up for another online course, be sure he gets a good-sized sample.  He may be tired of the deep thinking but ultimately he may find that other programs are boring by comparison  :tongue_smilie:.

 

This was my son. We tried some other things for Pre-A when he balked at the difficulty early on, but he ended up requesting to go to back to AoPS ''Because it's hard, but at least it's not boring.''

 

His complaint that there are no corresponding videos for Intermediate Algebra is valid though. Are videos for those topics available elsewhere? Khan Academy, for example? I don't have enough math background to evaluate this.

 

Other places (KA included) have videos covering the concepts, but often the AoPS videos also cover ''the AOPS approach'' to a type of problem, which wouldn't be in the videos from other programs. His best bet is to communicate with other students and his instructors, like you said.

[Julie of KY]

I've recently asked the question of what else needs to be covered after the AoPS Intro book to call Algebra 2 complete. For the most part finishing the Intro to Algebra book covers all or most all that is covered in a typical algebra 2 class. In picking through multiple algebra 2 books here's what I'd consider adding:

- matrices (not always covered in algebra 2)

- hyperboles and ellipses (AoPS only covers circles and parabolas in the intro book) - the Int. Algebra book coverage of this is way too hard for anyone skipping the rest of the book

- dividing polynomials - dividing one polynomial by another is not covered in the intro book (only covered in the Int. book)

- intro to discrete math - number theory, counting, probablity

- stats

 

Not all of this is covered by all algebra 2 courses, but if your student hasn't touched on these topics elsewhere and you want a "complete" algebra 2 course, look to adding chapters on these topics from another text.

 

 

[Julie of KY]

Do the Mathcounts courses at AoPS utilize the handbook questions as assignments (aside from the weekly online challenge homework)?

 

In years past, the AoPS mathcounts classes only had the online challenge work as homework - no alcumus, textbook, or outside mathcounts homework.

[MomOfABunch]

I've recently asked the question of what else needs to be covered after the AoPS Intro book to call Algebra 2 complete. For the most part finishing the Intro to Algebra book covers all or most all that is covered in a typical algebra 2 class. In picking through multiple algebra 2 books here's what I'd consider adding:

- matrices (not always covered in algebra 2)

- hyperboles and ellipses (AoPS only covers circles and parabolas in the intro book) - the Int. Algebra book coverage of this is way too hard for anyone skipping the rest of the book

- dividing polynomials - dividing one polynomial by another is not covered in the intro book (only covered in the Int. book)

- intro to discrete math - number theory, counting, probablity

- stats

 

Not all of this is covered by all algebra 2 courses, but if your student hasn't touched on these topics elsewhere and you want a "complete" algebra 2 course, look to adding chapters on these topics from another text.

This is good info! Thanks.

[MomOfABunch]

I finally got out of DS what he's having such a hard time with - last two topics covered in Alg B: special functions and sequences and series. I'm less concerned than I was initially because, after spending time with these myself, they are not easy!

I think what we're going to do is get through class next week (last class) as best he can and then go back and spend more time with these 2 topics. DS seems to understand the concepts, he just needs more practice. Then we'll make a decision about what to do next.

Are these topics covered in regular (non AoPS) Algebra curriculum? Are there resources to help him with just these topics?

[Arcadia]

He would need to be comfortable with AP and GP

The MEP unit on it is good as a review

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/pure_ch13.pdf

 

Do this MEP chapter after the above intro one.

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/fpure_ch6.pdf

 

I found a 2 page exercise from Glencoe algebra 1 as well

http://www.glencoe.com/sec/math/algebra/algebra1/algebra1_05/extra_examples/chapter4/lesson4_7.pdf

 

He can also set the focus to those topics in Alcumus and practice.

 

My oldest did topics in those two chapters in enrichment from somewhere else before he started on AoPS prealgebra. If I am not wrong he did AP and GP with the Fibonacci enrichment I found on the Internet when he was younger.

 

ETA:

For extra practice with functions

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/pure_ch3.pdf

You can find more by searching for piecewise functions

[MomOfABunch]

He would need to be comfortable with AP and GP

The MEP unit on it is good as a review

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/pure_ch13.pdf

 

Do this MEP chapter after the above intro one.

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/fpure_ch6.pdf

 

I found a 2 page exercise from Glencoe algebra 1 as well

http://www.glencoe.com/sec/math/algebra/algebra1/algebra1_05/extra_examples/chapter4/lesson4_7.pdf

 

He can also set the focus to those topics in Alcumus and practice.

 

My oldest did topics in those two chapters in enrichment from somewhere else before he started on AoPS prealgebra. If I am not wrong he did AP and GP with the Fibonacci enrichment I found on the Internet when he was younger.

 

ETA:

For extra practice with functions

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/pure_ch3.pdf

You can find more by searching for piecewise functions

Thank you Arcadia, these are very helpful!

[jennynd]

this is an older post. I found it helpful

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/

[MomOfABunch]

this is an older post. I found it helpful

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/

You're right! Very helpful!

[MomOfABunch]

In case this is helpful for anyone, I emailed Derek Owens about this. He had this to say:

 

"Thanks for the email and I'll try to help. The online courses are very flexible, and your son could do part of my Algebra 2 course if needed. For example, he could do the last two chapters on trigonometry, and then move on to Precalculus.

 

If you want, he could also take the second semester exam for the Algebra 2 course. If he doesn't do well on some sections then that can tell us any other sections of the course that he might need to do. If he does do well then that gives you some documentation of him successfully mastering the Algebra 2 content. Let me know if you have any other thoughts or if you want to take a different approach, or if you want me to send you a copy of the exam."

 

Flexible is helpful!

[dereksurfs]

In case this is helpful for anyone, I emailed Derek Owens about this. He had this to say:

 

"Thanks for the email and I'll try to help. The online courses are very flexible, and your son could do part of my Algebra 2 course if needed. For example, he could do the last two chapters on trigonometry, and then move on to Precalculus.

 

If you want, he could also take the second semester exam for the Algebra 2 course. If he doesn't do well on some sections then that can tell us any other sections of the course that he might need to do. If he does do well then that gives you some documentation of him successfully mastering the Algebra 2 content. Let me know if you have any other thoughts or if you want to take a different approach, or if you want me to send you a copy of the exam."

 

Flexible is helpful!

 

Wow, it doesn't get much better than that!  You can see why so many like working with DO.

[MomOfABunch]

Wow, it doesn't get much better than that! You can see why so many like working with DO.

No kidding. I was on the fence but I think he just sold me with this email! DS will take the test and then see what he needs to do.

[MomOfABunch]

Update: he's decided to stick with AoPS. Switching at this point is too complicated. I found a tutor he can work with on an as needed basis so he can use the texts and skip the online class.