Intermediate Algebra - AOPS vs EPGY

[oscilatorium]

Hi, I am tutoring a gifted student who will be starting to take an intermediate algebra course. They are looking into the Stanford's EPGY Intermediate Algebra course online program versus Art of Problem Solving's Intermediate Algebra course. I would like to know how the two compare to each other. I have looked at the AOPS course table of contents and I also own the book and can see that the material goes beyond any typical honors algebra 2 curriculum. However I am having trouble finding much information about the EPGY course table of contents (it seems they use the text Intermediate Algebra by Lial/Hornsby/McGinnis), I saw this book's table of contents on Amazon and it appears to be a standard curriculum.

 

Could someone who knows more about the EPGY Intermediate Algebra course comment on the challenge level? Just from seeing the TOC of the book, I am guessing the course will mirror that curriculum and it does not appear to be as challenging as AOPS.  Note, the student is gifted middle schooler and has math competition experience (MathCounts/AMC/AIME), so I am definitely recommending AOPS, but wanted to know whether I am not missing anything in the EPGY program.

[kiana]

Lial is very standard, solid, not above-and-beyond like AOPS. Is the student prepared for AOPS? A standard algebra 1 course may not have sufficiently prepared them -- make sure you use the algebra a/b post-tests on their site so that you know that that is not a more appropriate placement. 

[oscilatorium]

Yes they are quite prepared; a lot of middle school competition problem solving experience and qualified to take the AIME exam earlier this year. Long term goal is to pass the AIME exam, so I think AOPS is probably the best choice (maybe the only choice) for an appropriate curriculum that will both prepare her well for math competitions and cover all Algebra 2 curriculum at the same time.

 

I was looking for any curriculum alternatives to AOPS aimed at her level, but I am not having luck finding much else.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I agree that AoPS Intermediate Algebra would be an ideal fit for her & would be much more challenging than Lial.

 

If her parents do decide to go with EPGY instead, I'd suggest working through the original AoPS problem solving texts (2 volumes) on the side. That's what I did before the AoPS algebra & geometry texts were published.

[oscilatorium]

That's what I was thinking, thank-you!

[Mike in SA]

Be careful not to confuse AoPS Intermediate Algebra with algebra 2. It is more like college algebra. If you only have had algebra 1, you will likely be woefully unprepared. AoPS Introduction to Algebra is equivalent to 1&2 combined, or beginning and intermediate algebra at a college level.

[oscilatorium]

Be careful not to confuse AoPS Intermediate Algebra with algebra 2. It is more like college algebra. If you only have had algebra 1, you will likely be woefully unprepared. AoPS Introduction to Algebra is equivalent to 1&2 combined, or beginning and intermediate algebra at a college level.

 

Correct, the AOPS book goes way beyond what is known as Algebra 2 in high school, both in problem depth and coverage of topics. So I think ample problem solving skill, some mathematical maturity, and a good understanding of basic algebra (up to quadratics/factoring) should be a good prerequisite for taking it and doing well in it.

[wapiti]

Correct, the AOPS book goes way beyond what is known as Algebra 2 in high school, both in problem depth and coverage of topics. So I think ample problem solving skill, some mathematical maturity, and a good understanding of basic algebra (up to quadratics/factoring) should be a good prerequisite for taking it and doing well in it.

 

FWIW, I think the point isn't the problem solving aspect, but that some of what is traditionally known as "algebra 2" is covered in the second half of the Intro to Algebra text (and likewise course B of the online classes), including some coverage of logarithms.  I'd refer the student to the "Are You Ready?" pretest for the Intermediate Algebra class to be sure the most basic prerequisites have been covered first.  Eta, I think the tables of contents in the actual texts are a little more descriptive than the lesson titles in the course descriptions.

 

(Eta, it would be helpful for me to know if there's anyone who thinks it makes sense for a student who has had the Intro A class to later take the Intermediate class without having had the Intro B class.  IOW, how crucial is the intro to logs and the function coverage in Intro to Alg to those topics in Intermediate.  It's a long story; I think I need to make him do the Intro B class first, i.e. I have answered my own question in this post :tongue_smilie:)

[oscilatorium]

FWIW, I think the point isn't the problem solving aspect, but that some of what is traditionally known as "algebra 2" is covered in the second half of the Intro to Algebra text (and likewise course B of the online classes), including some coverage of logarithms.  I'd refer the student to the "Are You Ready?" pretest for the Intermediate Algebra class to be sure the most basic prerequisites have been covered first.  Eta, I think the tables of contents in the actual texts are a little more descriptive than the lesson titles in the course descriptions.

 

(Eta, it would be helpful for me to know if there's anyone who thinks it makes sense for a student who has had the Intro A class to later take the Intermediate class without having had the Intro B class.  IOW, how crucial is the intro to logs and the function coverage in Intro to Alg to those topics in Intermediate.  It's a long story; I think I need to make him do the Intro B class first, i.e. I have answered my own question in this post :tongue_smilie:)

 

Yes, she has no problem with the pretest for the class. In her case she has not taken the Intro B algebra class but she has enough experience with competition math from mathcounts/amc10 that I believe she can do fine in the Intermediate class. E.g. even though she hasn't seen logarithms and some aspects of series/sequences/functions, I'm not too concerned, as the Intermediate course teaches it from the ground up, though at a faster pace than in the Intro courses.

 

So I think the Intro B Algebra class isn't essential and could be skipped if someone has a good enough problem solving base; (e.g. if they could do most of problems on an amc 10 test). Logs/sequences/series/functions are taught from the beginning in the intermediate class without any prior knowledge but a faster and deeper level, so having the mathematical maturity/problem solving experience would help in picking it up at that quick pace.

 

If on the other hand he's not very comfortable solving/factoring things like quadratics, or simple inequalities, and/or not been exposed to significant problem solving with prior aops classes, then the Intermediate course would be too much and I'd say to continue with Intro B.

[EKS]

AoPS will go way beyond Lial.  So if everyone is up for it, I'd go with AoPS.  In fact, I've decided that Lial is so basic that we're going to do a second year of Algebra II with Foerster to beef things up a bit.

[BlueMorpho]

If you have a student who is ready for the AoPS course and whose goal is to qualify for one of the USA(J)MO exams (I assume this is what you mean by "pass" the AIME, since it isn't really a pass-fail exam), then definitely I would choose AoPS over the EPGY course.  Your student is in the target group for AoPS.  Just make sure the student understands that the challenge problems are supposed to be hard and it's OK not to get them all -- many of them will take some time, work, and insight.  In the AoPS sequence, the Intermediate Algebra (or Algebra 3) course covers much of the algebra that would normally be covered in a precalculus course in a great deal more depth than usual. The Precal course covers trig, complex numbers, and linear algebra. 

 

(My homeschooled son was a five-time USA(J)MO qualifier.  He gives AoPS books and courses much of the credit. But definitely no guarantees -- neither AoPS nor the AIME is for everyone.) 

[oscilatorium]

If you have a student who is ready for the AoPS course and whose goal is to qualify for one of the USA(J)MO exams (I assume this is what you mean by "pass" the AIME, since it isn't really a pass-fail exam), then definitely I would choose AoPS over the EPGY course.  Your student is in the target group for AoPS.  Just make sure the student understands that the challenge problems are supposed to be hard and it's OK not to get them all -- many of them will take some time, work, and insight.  In the AoPS sequence, the Intermediate Algebra (or Algebra 3) course covers much of the algebra that would normally be covered in a precalculus course in a great deal more depth than usual. The Precal course covers trig, complex numbers, and linear algebra. 

 

(My homeschooled son was a five-time USA(J)MO qualifier.  He gives AoPS books and courses much of the credit. But definitely no guarantees -- neither AoPS nor the AIME is for everyone.) 

 

Yes her and the parents goal is to get to the USA(J)MO and she plans on devoting 7-8 hrs a week for the next year (outside of school class). Given what I've seen from her in the past year, she is talented and capable of reaching that level if she puts enough effort in (she took the AMC 10 the first time this year as a 7th grader and qualified for the AIME, but did not do much on the AIME (naturally expected, as she doesn't know trig/advanced algebra, and other precalc topics).

 

I explained to her parents that it will take many hours of problem solving to pass the AIME (i.e it will not be enough just to study old practice tests 1-2 months before the exam and accumulate all the concepts needed to pass the AIME, which is what she did when passing the AMC 10). Her mom mentioned her starting to try the online EPGY algebra course, but I told her it wouldn't be near her level and would not help with her goal of reaching the olympiad. So far I have not found any other class other than the AOPS intermediate classes for deep problem solving integrated into an actual curriculum and told her mom it's the only practical choice to challenge her, if she wants to make it by 8th or 9th grade.

[Arcadia]

AoPS has AIME classes. A 5hr weekend seminar is coming up in May

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aime-special

 

The 12 week AIME class

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aimea

 

I borrowed the Lials intermediate algebra textbook that EPGY use for my oldest to take a look and it was a no go with him. Easy elimination of choice for me.

 

This was the text

Intermediate Algebra by Lial, Hornsby, and McGinnis 10th ed, Addison-Wesley. ISBN# 0321557646.

 

I showed my boy the library's copy of the 11th edition too and also no go.

[oscilatorium]

AoPS has AIME classes. A 5hr weekend seminar is coming up in May

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aime-special

 

The 12 week AIME class

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-aimea

 

Yes I've seen the descriptions. I'm sure the 12 week class is very good as review, but I don't think it would really help cement the many topics on the AIME for someone learning many of them for the first time. I think the intermediate classes/books are much more thorough and go deep in the particular area and I believe the concepts really stick better on a slower schedule. I do think the AIME class would be very useful to take prior to the exam to refresh the topics and problem solving needed, (but self studying from past tests would also be very similar, and free). I took the advanced amc/mathcounts aops course out of curiosity a while back and found it very good, but it covered one major topic per week which is way too quick and is great as a review, but not enough time for any depth and proofs of results.