Fourth grade: Too much or just right?

[sangtarah]

Fourth grade plans:

 

Apologia Who Is...? series

AWANA verses

Kay Arthur kids studies

 

Rod and Staff English 4

I.E.W Student Intensive Level A

BJU Reading 4

Spelling?? (SWR or AAS or R+S or ?)   :confused1:

 

Saxon 5/4 

Life of Fred (for fun)

 

Latin for Children: Primer A

 

Science in the Beginning (she reads the Apologia Elementary series in her free time)

 

Mystery of History Volume 1 (with lots of library books)

 

Plus...Piano lessons, keyboarding, fitness, health, and A.H.G.

 

Is there too much in the language arts department? I feel like there might be, but I can't figure out what.

(We may change some of our plans and join a CC community - that hasn't been determined yet.)

A little about my student - she doesn't spell well, doesn't like to complete writing "assignments", but likes to write on her own, loves crafts, has a good grasp of language, art, music, and really dislikes math. She tends to dawdle and not complete tasks in a timely manner because she daydreams and gets distracted. 

 

Thanks for any and all input!   :bigear:  

 

[Ellie]

Fourth grade plans:

 

Apologia Who Is...? series

AWANA verses

Kay Arthur kids studies

 

Rod and Staff English 4

I.E.W Student Intensive Level A

BJU Reading 4

Spelling?? (SWR or AAS or R+S or ?)   :confused1:

 

Saxon 5/4 

Life of Fred (for fun)

 

Latin for Children: Primer A

 

Science in the Beginning (she reads the Apologia Elementary series in her free time)

 

Mystery of History Volume 1 (with lots of library books)

 

Plus...Piano lessons, keyboarding, fitness, health, and A.H.G.

 

Is there too much in the language arts department? I feel like there might be, but I can't figure out what.

(We may change some of our plans and join a CC community - that hasn't been determined yet.)

A little about my student - she doesn't spell well, doesn't like to complete writing "assignments", but likes to write on her own, loves crafts, has a good grasp of language, art, music, and really dislikes math. She tends to dawdle and not complete tasks in a timely manner because she daydreams and gets distracted. 

 

Thanks for any and all input!   :bigear:  

 

Because of your comments about her not spelling well, I would begin with SWR...and that's all (although actually, I'd recommend Spalding, but SWR will do the job), for a few months. When she's more confident about her spelling, then I'd add R&S English, not IEW. R&S English is full of writing, even though it doesn't look like it, and she won't feel as if she's doing writing assignments.

 

I would probably not do AWANA *and* Kay Arthur *and* Apologia. At this point, I'd probably let her AWANA work be her whole Bible/Christian studies.

 

I'm not sure I'd add LOF to Math 54 for a child who dislikes math.

 

I would probably not try the Latin.

[elmerRex]

Because you said that she hates maths, I just want to point out that Math 54 is a lot of work for the student. It can be a very great program, but what is your plan for maths time? Will you be on hand for her each day during maths?

 

I use Saxon Math 54 and Saxon Math 65 but instead of the student reading and learning alone, I teached all maths lessons and supervised the lessons closely to keep them from going too long. My son love maths so it was not a hardship for him to be doing lots of problems, but the problem load in Saxon can be a great hardship for a child that hates maths and doesn't have an active teacher and lots of supervising during the work if they are dreaming and playing around instead of working steadily..

[ALB]

I think your plan sounds good. 4th grade is a great time to start Latin. Your LA isn't overkill unless you have her complete the writing portions of R&S along with IEW. If you're just using R&S for grammar, I'd say you are right on target!

[LisaKinVA]

Some of this does seem like a bit much.  Caveat being, *unless it's something she enjoys!* Here are my notes:

 

Bible -- Have Awana be her lessons, don't do BOTH Kay Arthur and Awana...that's a lot.  I like the Who Is series, but maybe make that a read-aloud devotional (we did ours around the breakfast table...and it worked well, but evening would be nice, too.)

 

English -- it looks like you have all of the bases covered, but you say she *hates* writing (except for things she does on her own).  Keep whatever assigned writing short and sweet...nothing lengthy.  Maybe a paragraph a day assignment, focusing on excellent sentences and using different tools (I like imitations in writing/Killgallon to build variety.  Three of my children enjoyed/are enjoying Writing with Ease -- IEW just didn't click for us) Agree with PP, not to do the writing portions of R&S along with IEW.

 

Math -- we use LoF as a warm-up, for fun -- so I get this.  If your child *hates* math, Saxon probably isn't going to make her love it. If you are looking for something with a Spiral approach, you could use CLE (I asked my Saxon-loving mother to compare Saxon to CLE, and she said CLE would be better for someone who hates math).

 

Latin, History and Science sound fine (although I am not familiar with Science from the beginning). 

[sangtarah]

Because you said that she hates maths, I just want to point out that Math 54 is a lot of work for the student. It can be a very great program, but what is your plan for maths time? Will you be on hand for her each day during maths?

 

I use Saxon Math 54 and Saxon Math 65 but instead of the student reading and learning alone, I teached all maths lessons and supervised the lessons closely to keep them from going too long. My son love maths so it was not a hardship for him to be doing lots of problems, but the problem load in Saxon can be a great hardship for a child that hates maths and doesn't have an active teacher and lots of supervising during the work if they are dreaming and playing around instead of working steadily..

 

 

Thanks for the warning. She is working through Saxon Math Intermediate 3 now. It is often a chore for her, but she understands math much better with this program. The lessons do go better when I am able to sit with her. I will try to sit with her during 5/4, too, and guide the lessons. I am not a "math person", however, and often I am tempted to let her muddle through on her own. 

 

 

 

Some of this does seem like a bit much.  Caveat being, *unless it's something she enjoys!* Here are my notes:

 

Bible -- Have Awana be her lessons, don't do BOTH Kay Arthur and Awana...that's a lot.  I like the Who Is series, but maybe make that a read-aloud devotional (we did ours around the breakfast table...and it worked well, but evening would be nice, too.)

 

English -- it looks like you have all of the bases covered, but you say she *hates* writing (except for things she does on her own).  Keep whatever assigned writing short and sweet...nothing lengthy.  Maybe a paragraph a day assignment, focusing on excellent sentences and using different tools (I like imitations in writing/Killgallon to build variety.  Three of my children enjoyed/are enjoying Writing with Ease -- IEW just didn't click for us) Agree with PP, not to do the writing portions of R&S along with IEW.

 

Math -- we use LoF as a warm-up, for fun -- so I get this.  If your child *hates* math, Saxon probably isn't going to make her love it. If you are looking for something with a Spiral approach, you could use CLE (I asked my Saxon-loving mother to compare Saxon to CLE, and she said CLE would be better for someone who hates math).

 

Latin, History and Science sound fine (although I am not familiar with Science from the beginning). 

 

 

 

She doesn't hate writing, she just likes it to be her idea. ;-)   I have already invested in IEW, so I'm hoping to make it work for us. 

 

And yes, Life of Fred is her "treat" at the end of math. She does those chapters eagerly. 

 

 

Because of your comments about her not spelling well, I would begin with SWR...and that's all (although actually, I'd recommend Spalding, but SWR will do the job), for a few months. When she's more confident about her spelling, then I'd add R&S English, not IEW. R&S English is full of writing, even though it doesn't look like it, and she won't feel as if she's doing writing assignments.

 

I would probably not do AWANA *and* Kay Arthur *and* Apologia. At this point, I'd probably let her AWANA work be her whole Bible/Christian studies.

 

I'm not sure I'd add LOF to Math 54 for a child who dislikes math.

 

I would probably not try the Latin.

 

 

I am willing to shelve IEW for another year and just use R&S. I counted 33 lessons on writing in R&S - is that really enough for 4th grade?

 

Some of the Bible she will probably do on her own. I doubt we would all of them every day, anyway. 

 

As far as Latin, she has really enjoyed Song School Latin this year, and Latin for Children has a DVD, so I was thinking it wouldn't be as "mom intensive". I'm still wondering about that. 

 

Little sister will be "first grade" (i.e. 6 years old) next year.  Little brother will be two. Both of them have a lot of energy and need there own share of attention. Little sis has just started "Sing Spell Read and Write" level 1 and Saxon Math 1. 

 

Thanks for all the replies!

[Ellie]

 

I am willing to shelve IEW for another year and just use R&S. I counted 33 lessons on writing in R&S - is that really enough for 4th grade?

 

 

 

There is writing in almost every lesson, even those which are not specifically addressing composition, as long as you require her to do her assignments on actual paper instead of orally. For example, in the curriculum sample, in lesson 4 on verbs, the children have to copy each verb phrase and underline the main verb; then they are supposed to answer from memory and write the definition of a verb, and list the following groups of verbs--eight forms of "be," three forms of "have," and so on. Then they will diagram the skeletons of four sentences and copy all of the verbs in five sentences. It's all writing. Later, they will copy the first line of  a poem (copywork), marking the rhythm and which lines rhyme, then write a short poem of their own...writing.

[8filltheheart]

I personally wouldn't do all of that with a 4th grader.

 

My recommendation would be to not start Latin in 4th. Latin is one of those subjects where the benefit of waiting slightly longer really outweighs starting younger. Starting once she has a strong foundation in basic grammar and better spelling in English will actually make her progression both faster and easier. Latin grammar complexity cranks up pretty quickly when they are studying at a higher level. You can drag out the lower levels a long time, but those levels can be mastered in far less time at an older age and they are better prepared for dealing with the complex grammar issues that arise in poetry, for example. 3 yrs of grammar is all you need before you start reading both poetry and prose. But, the avg 7th grader is not going to be ready for either. Dragging out grammar level Latin over a longer period of time may backfire by the student losing interest in Latin before they actually get to the fun stuff!

 

One way to evaluate the choices is by considering a less is more approach to school. My balance with a 4th grader is something like 1-1 1/2 hr for spelling, grammar, writing; 1 hr for math; 30-45 mins each for literature, science, and history reading. The goal is approx. 4 solid hours of core academics. If your list of curriculum is taking your student longer than those allotted times per category, I would want to evaluate the resources and re-think selections.

[elmerRex]

 

Thanks for the warning. She is working through Saxon Math Intermediate 3 now. It is often a chore for her, but she understands math much better with this program. The lessons do go better when I am able to sit with her. I will try to sit with her during 5/4, too, and guide the lessons. I am not a "math person", however, and often I am tempted to let her muddle through on her own.

I do not know what you mean by a "not a 'math person'" but that does not sound like a good attitude to use in your foundation to teach from. What is a "math person" anyway? Grade 4 is not complex abstract mathematics. Saxon Math 54 contains mostly arithmetic and some simple geometry. Anyone who has learned grade 4 maths should be able to refresh and teach grade 4 maths.

 

If not one parent is strong and fluent in arithmetic, then you or your husband should study and practice it to be able to help her better. Math 54 starts out very gently so either work the book ahead of her by reading every lesson, doing all the lesson practice but only doing every 3rd, 4th or 5th Mixed Practice, or get a refresher math book and study it cover to cover.

 

Do not dismiss it because you are not a "math person" as a home school parent you are the math teacher for your child, without a strong foundation in arithmetic, you should expect her to fail in most other maths. And expect that her science studies will suffer. And expect her grades to be low because of it. And maths effects many girls self confidence and view of their own intelligence, so expect her to "feel dumb" and be very frustrated if maths becomes a barrier for her. Of course as the parent you will hope in your heart that she does not fail maths and have low grades and get bad self esteem, but you should expect this cycle to take place and just be grateful for luck if it does not. Weakness in maths is compounded and growing every day that a student doesn't understand what they are doing, it is not aided by "getting the right answer" without understanding. Its the understanding of the basics that makes each advanced topic easier to understand.

 

The book that is used is just a tool. The passion, skill and attitude of the teacher is the most important thing for a struggling pupil to have. Perhaps you can work on your own maths while she is working on hers to be a good example and to be able to help. If you work when she does, then you will not invest more time in it because you will be with her anyway.

 

I do not have intimate knowledge of Saxon Math Intermediate 3 because we started with Math 54. Did you read at the eBook in that link? The entire Math 54 book is online for viewing and use. If Intermediate Math 3 is a chore for her, then I would take a very close look at Math 54 which will not have workbook unless you make one or print the problem sets like we did. I would want to remove as much barrier from between her and the ability to do the work comfortably as possible. I would do everything to set her up to succeed, especially if I didn't feel confident or enthusiastic to teach maths in my home.

[sangtarah]

I do not know what you mean by a "not a 'math person'" but that does not sound like a good attitude to use in your foundation to teach from. What is a "math person" anyway? Grade 4 is not complex abstract mathematics. Saxon Math 54 contains mostly arithmetic and some simple geometry. Anyone who has learned grade 4 maths should be able to refresh and teach grade 4 maths.

 

If not one parent is strong and fluent in arithmetic, then you or your husband should study and practice it to be able to help her better. Math 54 starts out very gently so either work the book ahead of her by reading every lesson, doing all the lesson practice but only doing every 3rd, 4th or 5th Mixed Practice, or get a refresher math book and study it cover to cover.

 

Do not dismiss it because you are not a "math person" as a home school parent you are the math teacher for your child, without a strong foundation in arithmetic, you should expect her to fail in most other maths. And expect that her science studies will suffer. And expect her grades to be low because of it. And maths effects many girls self confidence and view of their own intelligence, so expect her to "feel dumb" and be very frustrated if maths becomes a barrier for her. Of course as the parent you will hope in your heart that she does not fail maths and have low grades and get bad self esteem, but you should expect this cycle to take place and just be grateful for luck if it does not. Weakness in maths is compounded and growing every day that a student doesn't understand what they are doing, it is not aided by "getting the right answer" without understanding. Its the understanding of the basics that makes each advanced topic easier to understand.

 

The book that is used is just a tool. The passion, skill and attitude of the teacher is the most important thing for a struggling pupil to have. Perhaps you can work on your own maths while she is working on hers to be a good example and to be able to help. If you work when she does, then you will not invest more time in it because you will be with her anyway.

 

I do not have intimate knowledge of Saxon Math Intermediate 3 because we started with Math 54. Did you read at the eBook in that link? The entire Math 54 book is online for viewing and use. If Intermediate Math 3 is a chore for her, then I would take a very close look at Math 54 which will not have workbook unless you make one or print the problem sets like we did. I would want to remove as much barrier from between her and the ability to do the work comfortably as possible. I would do everything to set her up to succeed, especially if I didn't feel confident or enthusiastic to teach maths in my home.

 

 

Well, by not a "math person" I mean I majored in the language arts; I do not have an affinity for numbers. That isn't to say I can't do basic elementary mathematics; that isn't my point. My sister, in contrast, is a "math person". Numbers run through her head like words through mine. Numbers and figures are just part of how she thinks, how she frames the world. I frame the world in words and emotions. Since I grew up with such a sister, I guess I naturally divide between "math people" and "non-math people". I didn't mean to offend or cause anyone to have angst. Sorry! 

 

I also do not mean that I am never on hand to teach her lessons. But most of them are so gentle and incremental that she learns them without my help. She is a smart kid. The chore for her is in staying put and actually focusing on the black and white page of numbers. Perhaps "muddle through" was a poor choice of words.  :001_rolleyes:  

 

My husband has a PhD in a science field. He is well-versed in mathematics, physics, etc. There is no question that her math journey will be supported and she will gain the necessary math fluency. She just doesn't love it. Her attitude has greatly improved through Math 3, but she still doesn't love it. Perhaps one day she will, I don't know. 

There's always hope.  ;)

 

We have a copy of Math 5/4. I have flipped through it, but not extensively yet. 

[sangtarah]

There is writing in almost every lesson, even those which are not specifically addressing composition, as long as you require her to do her assignments on actual paper instead of orally. For example, in the curriculum sample, in lesson 4 on verbs, the children have to copy each verb phrase and underline the main verb; then they are supposed to answer from memory and write the definition of a verb, and list the following groups of verbs--eight forms of "be," three forms of "have," and so on. Then they will diagram the skeletons of four sentences and copy all of the verbs in five sentences. It's all writing. Later, they will copy the first line of  a poem (copywork), marking the rhythm and which lines rhyme, then write a short poem of their own...writing.

 

 

Ah, see that's it. In R&S 3, we do most of our lessons orally. She does write some sentences, diagrams, etc. But the great majority is out loud. She has scored well on all the tests, and having her write every lesson seemed unnecessary. She also has writing required in BJU Reading, and she does complete most of that worktext. 

 

I will look through our R&S 4 and decide if it would be better to continue as we have been doing or change. Thanks for the feedback! 

[sangtarah]

I personally wouldn't do all of that with a 4th grader. 

 

My recommendation would be to not start Latin in 4th.  Latin is one of those subjects where the benefit of waiting slightly longer really outweighs starting younger.  Starting once she has a strong foundation in basic grammar and better spelling in English will actually make her progression both faster and easier.  Latin grammar complexity cranks up pretty quickly when they are studying at a higher level.  You can drag out the lower levels a long time, but those levels can be mastered simply at an older age and they are better prepared for dealing with the complex grammar issues that arise in poetry, for example.  3 yrs of grammar is all you need before you start reading both poetry and prose.  But, the avg 7th grader is not going to be ready for either.   Dragging out grammar level Latin over a longer period of time may backfire by the student losing interest in Latin before they actually get to the fun stuff!

 

One way to evaluate the choices is by considering a less is more approach to school.  My balance with a 4th grader is something like 1-1 1/2 hr for spelling, grammar, writing; 1 hr for math; 30-45 mins each for literature, science, and history reading.  The goal is approx. 4 solid hours of core academics.  If your list of curriculum is taking your student longer than those allotted times per category, I would want to evaluate the resources and re-think selections.

 

 

Thank you for your input on the Latin course. I haven't had a chance to examine what is required of the student closely. I'll take a look at that. 

[Ellie]

Ah, see that's it. In R&S 3, we do most of our lessons orally. She does write some sentences, diagrams, etc. But the great majority is out loud. She has scored well on all the tests, and having her write every lesson seemed unnecessary. She also has writing required in BJU Reading, and she does complete most of that worktext. 

 

I will look through our R&S 4 and decide if it would be better to continue as we have been doing or change. Thanks for the feedback! 

 

Many homeschoolers have their dc do R&S English orally, which is why I emphasized the importance of writing on actual paper. That your dd scores well on tests does not mean she is getting the most (and best) out of the lessons. All writing counts as writing :-) but the writing in R&S English has a different purpose than the writing in BJUP's reading, which is why I recommended dropping the reading and doing the English. :-)

[angelmama1209]

A little about my student - she doesn't spell well, doesn't like to complete writing "assignments", but likes to write on her own, loves crafts, has a good grasp of language, art, music, and really dislikes math. She tends to dawdle and not complete tasks in a timely manner because she daydreams and gets distracted. 

 

Thanks for any and all input!   :bigear:  

except for the spelling part, you have literally described my (brand new) 10yo! we are at the "end" of "4th grade" but we started lively latin sometime in 3rd and she is doing just fine. well enough that her coop teacher (where she is taking latin this year) mentioned she can tell we're doing it at home.

[TheAutumnOak]

It sounds like too much to me...I would not do R&S English, IEW, and BJU...

[8filltheheart]

 

Just to clarify, my post was not meant to suggest that kids cannot complete Latin courses at that age, but instead that Latin at that age is really not necessary, especially when other skills are weaker and require a higher priority. Mastery of Latin grammar does not take all of elementary school and the beginning of middle school. It takes 2-3 yrs of solid Latin instruction. Tackling the grammar of Latin poetry, otoh, takes maturity. It is difficult bc the grammatical issues are complex. Latin prose is often written with difficult vocabulary and structures. You can stretch Latin grammar out over a long period of time, but bc the progress is limited, the student might not want to keep plodding along until they are ready to work on complex translations. When time during the younger grades is an issue and trying to balance choices, not opting for Latin in elementary school is not a detrimental decision. The student starting later can focus and catch up at a later date.

 

Fwiw, this scenario did play out in our homeschool. My oldest 3 kids started off with LC in elementary school. They really disliked the drawn out pace and saw no purpose in what they were doing. We ended up dropping Latin bc of it. I waited with my next 3 and they all had completely different attitudes toward Latin.

 

Obviously that is just one family's perspective and certainly there are other families who study Latin yr after yr from a young age with enjoyment. I just wanted to affirm that starting later is not detrimental to long term Latin progress.