Struggling reader (follow up from GE Board)

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I thought I would move my question about my DD7 reading struggles over here. If you didn't see it and want the whole story here is the link: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/541456-struggling-reader/

 

I did the Barton pre-test with her today. She did fine on Task A (counting words). On Task B (counting syllables) she missed the first two. She said two syllables for "bath" (ba/th) and two syllables for bathtub (ba/th/tub). The rest she was fine on. Task C was as I expected. She needed a second try for 7 of them and the max is 6. She did end up going on to get 6 of those right on the second try. She really had to think about most of these though. There were a couple where the problem seemed to be the similar sounds (vowel sounds and /ch/ /j/ /sh/) but it seemed like the biggest problem was that she simply couldn't remember them.  

 

We also did a screening by Reading Horizons. After doing this test, I don't think blending is a problem. She was able to put the whole word together when I said the separate sounds and read the short and long vowel nonsense and real words without really even needing to sound them out. There was an issue with her recognizing four sounds in a word when the first two letters were consonants (for example: glad). She consistently said there were only 3 sounds for words like this. She also had a hard time substituting sounds unless she was substituting the first sound. She couldn't figure out the word if she was supposed to change the middle or last sound.

 

So what does all this mean? A memory problem? I guess that would explain why she was so late to talk and why she has a hard time thinking of the names of things sometimes. What else? Phonemic awareness? What else should I consider/look into?

 

I think I'll call next week and schedule an appointment for an eye exam. She does have a few of the signs pointing to a vision problem (reversals, motion sickness, fatigue when reading). And that'll be an inexpensive and easy thing to check out. My DH told me today that he had vision problems relating to tracking when he was a child. I'm not sure why he didn't think to share his reading/vision struggles with me when I first starting to express concern over DD's reading but the last couple of days as I bounce ideas off of him he jumps in with an "I did that when I was a kid..." I think I should talk to my MIL when she gets home from vacation and see if she has any other information. Some of these things are hereditary right? So maybe it would be useful to know a little more about his reading struggles as a kid. I guess that might explain why he hates to read now...

[PeterPan]

http://bartonreading.com/students_results.html#failed Barton tells you how to interpret the results of her test.  Here's what you get when you click the failed section C.  http://bartonreading.com/students_results.html#failed  

 

What you're describing, being unable to identify the second letter in a blend IS a problem.  You DEFINITELY have something going on and what you need is an eval by some kind of psychologist who will run a CTOPP or other test of phonological processing.  Yes, you're probably also seeing working memory issues, but she should, at that age, be able to hear those sounds, count syllables, etc.  There could be explanations you aren't expecting.  The way you sort it out is with a full eval done by a psychologist.  You can go clinical psychologist, neuropsychologist, ed psychologist.  You can get the testing done through the ps if they will agree to do a phonological processing test with a RAN/RAS component.  So look into your options.

 

The eye doc, if it's a developmental optometrist, is a great thing, but it doesn't explain her phonological processing and working memory issues.  

 

Barton suggests you do LIPS if you fail section C.  It's definitely a great place to start.  You might see if you can get some evals done *before* that, just to give you a baseline.  It will take you a while to get LIPS and learn the methodology anyway.  If you get the evals and it *is* dyslexia, you're going to have some things open up for you with the documentation.  You'll get access to Learning Ally, Bookshare, the NLS, etc.  It will start your paper trail for accommodations.  Some states offer disability scholarships or other services.  

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm really not sure what we're going to do. We can't afford private testing right now and my DH doesn't want to go through the ps. We know someone who is in the process of getting their dc tested through a neighboring school district so maybe we should sit down with them and find out what their experience was like. If I understand correctly, schools in our state are not required to offer an services to students who aren't enrolled. So there's no guarantee there either. Maybe our insurance will cover some of the testing.

 

For now, I'll start researching ways to improve the working memory and phonetic awareness and do what I can there. My DH also wants me to order a phonics program and get started on that. She likes reading right now. I just don't want to mess that up.

[MomatHWTK]

You might take a look at the book Reading Rescue 1-2-3 for ideas.  I found it helpful when my first reader struggled.  I like this program: https://penningtonpublishing.com/downloadable/download/sample/sample_id/1/ (note this link is for sample pages only).  I also use a lot of online resources to supplement. 

 

Some tips:

http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/professionals/dyslexia-school/phonological-awareness

[PeterPan]

Ironically enough, Barton has such a good resale value that it can end up rather affordable in spite of its high upfront cost.  A new level costs $250 plus shipping, so $265 total, but I sold my level 1 for $225 ppd on ebay.  Even with the cut to ebay, it means it basically cost me $50 to do a level of Barton.  She failed the pre-test, so you would do LIPS first.   I think I got my LIPS set on ebay.  Definitely search and see what you can find.  These things hold their resale value.  

 

If you're going to proceed without testing, use materials meant for dyslexia.  By not getting evals what you're not learning is whether there's MORE going on, like ADHD, processing speed, motor planning issues, CAPD or something else you're not expecting that could cause similar symptoms, etc.  If you don't have the money for evals and the school will eval her, it makes sense to help your dh over that hurdle.  Good evals will be very helpful to you and the ps would probably check more than just the reading.  They could look for OT issues, speech issues, etc.  

[TxMama]

You could also look at free options for testing. For example, Scottish Rite in Texas does testing for free for residents of the state.

 

I agree with OhElizabeth, if you are proceeding without testing, then use materials for dyslexia. Testing will give you a better picture of what is going on, give you access to resources such as Learning Ally (buying Barton new will also give you access to LA), and provide you documentation for accommodations for school and college.

 

Best of luck!

[PeterPan]

I hadn't heard that about buying Barton new giving you access to LA.  How does that work?

[Sugarfoot]

I posted about the cost of my son's testing in the other thread.  We had him tested again 18 mos. ago in case he needed accommodations for college, which he hasn't needed at all!!! Anyway, I think pursuing an appointment with a developmental optometrist is a good idea. I had no idea our son was having this issue, and when it was pointed out to me during his appt., it was so obvious. I felt terrible. I will say, also, that the Dr. overstepped a bit and told us that he "didn't see any signs of dyslexia."  :huh: He was absolutely not qualified to make such a statement. DS was diagnosed a few months later. Just something to keep in mind, not that the Dr. who sees your DD would say such a thing, but you never know. 

 

I know several dyslexic children in our area have had good results with a Wilson tutor. Honestly, the things your DD is doing sound so familiar. My youngest still hasn't passed over into non-dyslexic-for-sure territory, so I'm hyper-vigilant about watching for all of the little signs now. I will say that, for my kids, vertical phonics has been the biggest blessing ever. They need the explicit instruction and "these are all the sounds this letter makes" type of progression. 

 

 

ETA that I think sometimes it's confusing to kids whether letter combinations like "gl" are supposed to be considered one sound or two. When phonics readers or worksheets or whatever call them "blends" it seems like it's now one sound, but then we ask them how many sounds are in this word? and expect them to break that blend into two. Just a thought. 

[PeterPan]

"gl" is a blend and two distinct sounds because each sound is phonemically distinct, meaning each sound is capable of creating phonemic distinction in a word.  Put together they are the same as they were, distinct sounds that can be isolated and that are separate in speech production.  (/g/ in the back, /l/ in the front)

 

lad

gad

glad

 

These are three different words, with glad having 4 sounds linguistically.

 

shop

hop

sop

 

The sh here is one sound and is produced as one sound in the mouth.  /sh/ is not a combination of /s/ and /h/ but is actually a linguistically separate sound /sh/.  In fact in some languages you'll have multiple ways to pronounce/form /sh/, all of which are distinct and create phonemic distinctions, CHANGING WORDS.  

 

So from a linguistic perspective /sh/ is one sound that we happen to write with 2 letters in english.  In many programs we call this a multi-letter phonogram: one sound requiring multiple letters to write it.  

 

Clear as mud?  

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

So what would a good "dyslexia curriculum" be? Specifically Barton or Wilson or would something like LOE, AAR, or Spalding also fall under that category? I'm drawn to LOE Foundations. I think my DD would love the colorful cuteness of it and I really think the vertical phonics (New term I've learned from you helpful ladies :-)) would make sense to her. It seems like a similar idea to SM where addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are all introduced close together. Not exactly the same I know, but she loves and does very well with SM because it introduces multiple functions of numbers together and she finds that interesting. I think vertical phonics might click with her the same way. I also liked the focus on how each sound is formed and voiced and it seemed strong in phonological and phonemic awareness. It also seemed very clearly laid out and like it wouldn't require much planning from me. Then there was the added bonus that I could use it with my 5yo too.

 

Am I missing something important by thinking that LOE might work? I haven't decided for sure. I still want to look at more samples and read some reviews for a few programs before I make my final decision.

 

It's good to see that there may be more options for testing that may be more affordable. I'll ask our local homeschool groups as well and see what recommendations people have. I definitely want to make sure that whoever we go with is homeschool friendly.

 

I was talking to my DH more last night about the results of the tests we did yesterday and getting some professional evaluations done. He is hesitant to do any testing right now regardless of whether it is through ps or a private group. He is concerned that she will start to think there's something wrong with her or that she's dumb. He thinks we should just back up, review, try a different method and see what happens. He also wants to make sure that whoever we choose is supportive of homeschooling. I think he sees too much government agency overreach at work in regards to parental decision making and wants to make sure we protect ourselves from that.

 

I'm torn on getting evaluations now or waiting a bit. I see his point and tend to agree while at the same time wanting to do something now while it might be easier to help her catch up. I also wonder what else may be going on. A slow processing speed definitely sounds like something we may be dealing with and I've wondered about ADD too. It's so hard to know exactly what to do and when to do it!

[PeterPan]

She's 7.  She's going to interpret testing exactly the way you present it.  It's a bunch of crap and the typical blow-off, saying it will ruin her self-esteem, blah blah.  Like not being able to read doesn't already start the clue phone ringing to her??  Like she hasn't already figured out SOMETHING is up??  She doesn't talk to ANY other kids?  

 

My boy has a social delay and we've sort somehow smoothed it over.  We plant all these ideas in his head to head things off.  I show him videos online of people ear-reading (using the ereader on your iphone to read email) and we just normalize a lot of things.  It doesn't HAVE to be this stigmatizing, horrible thing.  Certainly we don't let it get painted that way and I'll rip the head off anybody who tries to hurt him over it.  I've been protective over him for years already for speech, so I'm pretty Mama Tiger.

 

What to me stinks is when it's not going well and you don't have the RIGHT words.  Then they figure out the words, words like DUMB.  So you get to choose how they think of themselves.  I LIKE that I have all the GOOD things the psych told us (gifted, blah blah) along with the CORRECT words for his problems.  He doesn't have to wonder what's going on.

 

Good evals will tell you things you're not expecting.  Yes, they'll run the tests for ADHD.  Since 60% of dyslexics will also get that label, you might as well know now.  They'll get you access to services.  In our state they get you access to scholarships (not widely broadcasted).  You're also going to learn about RAN/RAS, processing speed, working memory, get screened for OT issues (also very common).  My ds got a "disorder of written expression" label I was NOT expecting on top of everything else.  If you just pick up curriculum and teach, you're MISSING all that info and teaching BLIND, totally blind.

 

You'll have to do evals eventually anyway.  Why teach blind if you can have the info and be a more informed teacher NOW??  This is WORTH fighting your dh over.  Educate him.  I'm not saying fight, but EDUCATE him.  In order for you to teach, you NEED this information.  It will DRAMATICALLY shift how you teach and DRAMATICALLY affect the results you get.

 

For instance, since you have no RAN/RAS scores, you don't realize you need to work on it.  The research shows 6 weeks of RAN/RAS work can bump those scores into the normal range, and RAN/RAS is the single biggest predictor of becoming a good reader.  So right now you're missing the information that would allow you to do a simple to implement intervention that could make your reading instruction dramatically more effective.

 

Failing section C of the Barton pretest means her working memory is probably low.  You don't know how low and you aren't exploring options to work on it.  Your dh is just sticking his head in the sand, saying maybe you can buy some phonics program and make it all go away.  She just flunked a phonemic awareness test that ANY NORMAL 5 YO COULD PASS.  Think about that.  Don't whitewash it or undermine it.  

 

You'll be a more effective teacher and target your work better with thorough evals.

 

No, LOE is not adequate.  It's not meant for dyslexics, thing one, and thing two she failed the Barton pretest.  The Barton pretest specifies that failing it means she's not prepared to do well in ANY program.  Go back and read the instructions on how to interpret the results.  Without an intervention like LIPS she doesn't have the foundation to go in and do ANY program well.  That's what it showed you.  And Barton is the GOLD STANDARD in materials to pick up and use yourself at home.  It doesn't make sense to ignore the results of the Barton pretest because they're true for ANY program.

 

If you want to hire an OG-certified tutor, cool.  You can call them, pay $65 an hour (the cost around here) and let them handle it.  I had a tutor tell me she worked with a dyslexic but gifted 7 yo who jumped *5 grade levels* of reading in one year.  Will your "hmm, let's buy a level of LOE and see what happens" make that happen??  Our psych was REALLY FIRM on the idea that we short shrift our kids when we don't admit what's going on and get aggressive intervention.

 

No matter what program you're thinking, you still need to do LIPS first according to the Barton pre-test.  What some people do is continue on into Barton for a couple levels and then decide.  Barton is SO much more detailed than other programs that it creates a good foundation.  Then if you think she could go a bit faster (AAS, whatever), you could jump.  

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Can I do the LiPS program with her on my own? They don't have any centers within 2 hours of us. I looked briefly and it sounds like it requires training. Is that right?

 

What are some of the other things you mentioned? OT? CAPD? RAN/RAS? Motor planning issues? Sorry, all these new terms and abbreviations....I just feel in over my head. Two days ago I was thinking we just had a relatively minor issue with our bright DD and that a few small adjustments to my teaching would have her reading in no time. Now? My head is swimming with new information that is all very overwhelming.

 

My DH doesn't have his head in the sand about this. He doesn't do the much of the teaching so he isn't aware of problems until I bring them to his attention - which was just a few days ago for this. I've been thinking about this for weeks, he's had two days. He needs time - we both do really - to think about this, do some research, and figure out what our best move is. He IS also concerned that our children do well in school, and especially for this DD's reading. He called me 3 times from work yesterday just to talk about how the tests we did went and what the results meant.

 

Please don't think we're downplaying this or brushing it aside. We aren't. We are seriously considering all of the suggestions and advice we've been given. But there is a lot of information to sift through, and, like I said, it's extremely overwhelming.

[PeterPan]

The training they give at LMB is minimal.  You can pick up the LIPS manual, read it, and do it yourself, yes.  Barton says it intimidates some people, and you just have to decide you aren't going to be intimidated, kwim?  Nuts, the WRTR manual scared me years ago and I threw it at the wall.  Eventually I figured it out, lol.  

 

So yes, you can do LIPS with her.  You're just going to need a bit of time with it (a couple hours) to sit down and get it figured out in your mind.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lindamood-Phoneme-Sequencing-Program-Spelling/dp/1416404961/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423444528&sr=8-1&keywords=patricia+lindamood Here ganderpublishing seems to be selling a 4th edition (current) of the manual for $90 and shipping.  Snatch it up, because it's $130 normally.

 

Here's a link to the kit components.  The kit is $450, so I'm trying to save you money.  http://ganderpublishing.com/pc_combined_results.asp?pc_id=6DB3898C4D74487A9C2F0608810457E1

 

Some of those components you won't need because you'll jump midway into Barton.  Some you can substitute anything with.  I used my colored math squares instead of their swanky magnetic colored squares.  You can use a cookie sheet or magnetic dry erase board you already have instead of their trifold.  Any mirror will work.  The only thing you REALLY need is these http://ganderpublishing.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=AC411298AF6640BDB17255E1A7F9D50C I'm not sure there's a deal to be had, so you'll just have to order them.  But with those two things you're still around $120 for LIPS.  I checked ebay and didn't see any sets, but you could certainly try.  You'll be able to sell your stuff on ebay when you're done with it.

 

That's sweet that he's so concerned!  That's the skinny.  She needs SOMETHING to get her ready to do one of the dyslexia remediation programs, and what Barton recommends for that (because it's unique, because it works) is LIPS.  It will bring up her working memory *and* her ability to hear sounds, both of which appear to be issues.  It's not rocket science and you can do it.   :)

 

[TxMama]

I hadn't heard that about buying Barton new giving you access to LA.  How does that work?

 

 

Susan Barton will provide proof of eligibility. I was able to get access to LA prior to getting formal testing done through Susan Barton.

 

 

She also responds quickly to emails. If the OP has questions regarding dc testing result, email her. Susan will be able to help you decide on the best way to proceed.

 

Best of luck!

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I may e-mail her next week and see what she says. Thanks.

[She Reads a Lot]

You've gotten fantastic advice from OhElizabeth and others. I'll just reiterate that Barton truly is amazing. We've used it for two years for our son, and it has transformed his abilities. The boy couldn't spell "the" when we started--he used no vowels at all and was eight years old. He can now spell "epoxy" and "compliment" thanks to Barton (we're halfway through Level 5). It is absolutely worth it (1) to get your kiddo tested so you don't overlook anything (for example, SPD or sensory processing disorder wasn't even on our radar but our kiddo was off the charts in six of the eight areas) and (2) to dive into remediating with both feet so you can stop the frustration for both of you. What you are doing now is not working, and good for you for seeing that and asking for advice.

 

Give yourself grace to do a little researching ($2000 seems exorbitant for a diagnosis--maybe seek other options?), then get her tested, and jump into helping. Yes, it will take a lot of time at first to juggle the various programs if you need more than one, but when both of you see progress, it will all be worth it--especially for your daughter's self esteem when she sees for herself that there were issues beyond her control preventing her from reading. It was not her fault that it was so hard. That is priceless--not to mention how much easier it will be for you to help her once you address any underlying issues and/or are using the right program(s).

 

You can do it!

Christina

 

[Sugarfoot]

"gl" is a blend and two distinct sounds because each sound is phonemically distinct, meaning each sound is capable of creating phonemic distinction in a word.  Put together they are the same as they were, distinct sounds that can be isolated and that are separate in speech production.  (/g/ in the back, /l/ in the front)

 

lad

gad

glad

 

These are three different words, with glad having 4 sounds linguistically.

 

shop

hop

sop

 

The sh here is one sound and is produced as one sound in the mouth.  /sh/ is not a combination of /s/ and /h/ but is actually a linguistically separate sound /sh/.  In fact in some languages you'll have multiple ways to pronounce/form /sh/, all of which are distinct and create phonemic distinctions, CHANGING WORDS.  

 

So from a linguistic perspective /sh/ is one sound that we happen to write with 2 letters in english.  In many programs we call this a multi-letter phonogram: one sound requiring multiple letters to write it.  

 

Clear as mud?  

LOL, exactly. So unless the child has been through a program that says things like, "two letters, one sound," they're not really that familiar with the idea of which 2-letter combinations are one sound and which aren't. Yes, g and l can be separated, and thus called a "blend", but that's sort of an abstract concept to a child. It takes work to help them get through this stuff. At least it does for my kids, especially my dyslexic. So when I found a program that laid it all out, it was like the sun finally came out for him :)

[PeterPan]

LOL, exactly. So unless the child has been through a program that says things like, "two letters, one sound," they're not really that familiar with the idea of which 2-letter combinations are one sound and which aren't. Yes, g and l can be separated, and thus called a "blend", but that's sort of an abstract concept to a child. It takes work to help them get through this stuff. At least it does for my kids, especially my dyslexic. So when I found a program that laid it all out, it was like the sun finally came out for him :)

 

You might think through it the inverse way.  Unless a child has phonemic awareness issues, he will naturally already distinguish this.  The sounds and the mouth production will be connected in his brain and the child will, in the normal course of things, develop that phonemic awareness. The terms are abstract but the actual phonemic awareness will develop naturally, which is why Barton can say a 5 yo with no issues SHOULD be able to pass her pre-test. It only needs to be taught explicitly for a child with a disability.  But you are correct, teaching it is golden and magic!  :)

 

[PeterPan]

I may e-mail her next week and see what she says. Thanks.

You know what you'd find more helpful is to call her.  You can.  You literally just call and they'll put you through.  I called and talked with her right at the stage where you are, having done the pretest and deciding about evals and how to proceed, and she gave me helpful advice.  I'd suggest you call in fact.  That way she can ask you questions and give you better help.   :)

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs OP.  I was gone so haven't stepped in here but OhE is right.  Call Susan Barton.  If she isn't traveling to do talks, etc.  you can usually talk to her pretty easily.  She might be able to help you sort some things out.  There are a LOT of parents on the LC board that have been where you are now (me too :) ).  Totally sympathize.

 

Have you read any books?  The Mislabeled Child or The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide?  Homeschooling Your Struggling Learner by Kathy Kuhl (good even if a parent isn't homeschooling, actually).  There are a lot of others out there, too.

 

And I also agree, if your child struggled with section C of the Barton screening, look into doing LiPS.  Plan to read through it all and maybe even ask questions here, let it percolate, see if there are any FB support groups, etc.  Give it time (for some that is a couple of hours but for others that might be days or weeks) for your brain to wrap around the system before you begin (not all of us can leap in with 2 hours of quick review like the awesome OhE :) ).  Evaluations will certainly help, though, with understanding the fuller picture.  There are SO many underlying strengths and weaknesses that a layman might have no clue how to spot but could really help with determining a more productive path for your child.

 

FWIW, one of my kids passed and is doing Barton very successfully.  Love Barton.  The other one did not pass and ended up doing LiPS first.  Only it was my mother doing it and she only did it sporadically and did not get very far into the program.  He passed the re-screening anyway and we started him on Barton.  It has been good but not great.  It is painfully obvious to me that he should have had more consistency, done it much more often (while he was still younger and more pliable) and gone farther in LiPS before starting Barton.  Now we are having to go back and reincorporate LiPS methods into the Barton stuff.  Don't make that same mistake.  

 

Best wishes.

[PeterPan]

Disclaimer: I had a bunch of linguistics classes in college, sat through all of ds' ST, and had taught an OG-lite program (SWR) for years, so yes LIPS was pretty intuitive for me to pick up and use.  I probably only spent about an hour total reading the manual, because it was pretty obvious to me.  But I've hit the wall on things too and know that it's usually about perserverance more than innate brilliance.  Stick with it, ask questions, and you can figure it out.  :)

 

I will say it surprises me how little discussion there is of *blending* Barton 1 and LIPS.  That's what I did, after OneStep warned me of what happened with them, and it has been super-fabulous.  We continue to use LIPS materials and methodology every day with our Barton and we're in Barton 3.  We use the faces to organize all our phonograms and we go through all of them, first placing sounds and using letter magnets for the written, then picking up the letters/phonograms, saying them, and writing them in the salt tray.  Call my OCD or whatever, but that structure and organization and continuing what we did in LIPS on into Barton has been highly effective for us, reducing loss when he's on breaks and making sure he REALLY understands it.

 

I also don't use Barton's tiles right now, mainly because he's young.  I want to make sure he really gets the different letters in them together representing the sound, so I use letter magnets from Lakeshore Learning (kit is $30, I picked it up used at a sale) and have him build the tiles.  So he builds "sh" and doesn't just pull up a tile.  I decided to go with the letters because I wanted him to be able to handle them and meet his beast with the reversals.  I dump them out and he has to scan the field and find his letters, even if they're upside down, reversed, flipped, whatever.  This has been really good for him because the spatial, with things seeming the same no matter what way they were turned, etc., was pretty serious.  I wanted him to be able to physically handle them and get it sorted out in his mind.

 

Those are choices you get to make as the teacher about whether things like that help your dc in their particular situation.  I'm just sharing the logic on how I got there.  Maybe every kid doesn't need that.  OneStep's warning about continuing the LIPS methodology was very strong to me and continuing it and letting it organize our thought process has been very good.  What I did to blend them was to go through the "vertical" track in LIPS where you work with a limited field.  Barton 1 also has you work with a limited field each week.  So basically I could take B1's phonograms for week 1, merge them with LIPS for that first go round, go through all the steps in LIPS for the vertical path and then go ahead right on through the Barton steps for week 1.  Limited field, all the steps of both programs.  Next week add a few more phonograms using the lesson 2 (for us week 2) list in Barton 1, and do the same thing, going through all the steps of LIPS and right on through all the steps of Barton 1 lesson 2.  Repeat for each lesson.  That's what we did.  

 

I LOVE how powerful these tools are together.  You get right into their brains and get them touching and feeling and hearing, breaking apart and blending.  Tremendous stuff!

[OneStepAtATime]

Disclaimer: I had a bunch of linguistics classes in college, sat through all of ds' ST, and had taught an OG-lite program (SWR) for years, so yes LIPS was pretty intuitive for me to pick up and use.  I probably only spent about an hour total reading the manual, because it was pretty obvious to me.  But I've hit the wall on things too and know that it's usually about perserverance more than innate brilliance.  Stick with it, ask questions, and you can figure it out.   :)

 

I will say it surprises me how little discussion there is of *blending* Barton 1 and LIPS.  That's what I did, after OneStep warned me of what happened with them, and it has been super-fabulous.  We continue to use LIPS materials and methodology every day with our Barton and we're in Barton 3.  We use the faces to organize all our phonograms and we go through all of them, first placing sounds and using letter magnets for the written, then picking up the letters/phonograms, saying them, and writing them in the salt tray.  Call my OCD or whatever, but that structure and organization and continuing what we did in LIPS on into Barton has been highly effective for us, reducing loss when he's on breaks and making sure he REALLY understands it.

 

I also don't use Barton's tiles right now, mainly because he's young.  I want to make sure he really gets the different letters in them together representing the sound, so I use letter magnets from Lakeshore Learning (kit is $30, I picked it up used at a sale) and have him build the tiles.  So he builds "sh" and doesn't just pull up a tile.  I decided to go with the letters because I wanted him to be able to handle them and meet his beast with the reversals.  I dump them out and he has to scan the field and find his letters, even if they're upside down, reversed, flipped, whatever.  This has been really good for him because the spatial, with things seeming the same no matter what way they were turned, etc., was pretty serious.  I wanted him to be able to physically handle them and get it sorted out in his mind.

 

Those are choices you get to make as the teacher about whether things like that help your dc in their particular situation.  I'm just sharing the logic on how I got there.  Maybe every kid doesn't need that.  OneStep's warning about continuing the LIPS methodology was very strong to me and continuing it and letting it organize our thought process has been very good.  What I did to blend them was to go through the "vertical" track in LIPS where you work with a limited field.  Barton 1 also has you work with a limited field each week.  So basically I could take B1's phonograms for week 1, merge them with LIPS for that first go round, go through all the steps in LIPS for the vertical path and then go ahead right on through the Barton steps for week 1.  Limited field, all the steps of both programs.  Next week add a few more phonograms using the lesson 2 (for us week 2) list in Barton 1, and do the same thing, going through all the steps of LIPS and right on through all the steps of Barton 1 lesson 2.  Repeat for each lesson.  That's what we did.  

 

I LOVE how powerful these tools are together.  You get right into their brains and get them touching and feeling and hearing, breaking apart and blending.  Tremendous stuff!

I have loved how you are blending these two systems.  I honestly wish this was actually a scripted option in Barton (for those of us who are teaching challenged  :laugh: ).  When you started taking my experience with DS and then working LiPS and Barton together for yours it really was a light bulb moment for me.  But LiPS is NOT intuitive to me.  I struggle to blend the two systems.  It IS getting a bit better but I also found out there is finally a tutor in the area that uses LiPS so I thought we might make a run at it through her, too, since DS is so resistant to anything that smacks of LiPS now (since it feels like going backwards to him at this point) but he does do well with outside instructors.  He is a people pleaser and likes to make others proud.

[PeterPan]

OneStep, you're gonna come visit me this summer, and our boys will play and we'll blast off BOTH their reading!   :)

 

PS.  I make it sound easy, but combining them was the hardest, most brain-wrenching thing I've done in a long time, and I've done a lot of hard things!  (calculus, russian, etc.)  It left me praying a lot, just DEAR GOD show me what to do next...

 

[PeterPan]

Here's the post I made when we were in the middle of it.  Shows the basic progression of how I was combining LIPS and Barton 1.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/532452-lmb-screening-seeing-stars/?do=findComment&comment=6017209

 

Adding: when it says really cryptic things like "attempt break replace", that's a skill from Barton.  So you see where I took the new phonograms for the week, went through the LIPS skills, then started bringing in the Barton skills USING THE LIPS MANIPS, then built on it till we were doing the B1 steps with the tiles, the farthest level of abstraction.  

 

In other words, those steps make sense if you have both sets of materials in-hand.  And read greek upside down through a telescope.  (just joking)

[LaughingCat]

IMO from doing LIPS myself - it appears that even the LIPS program expects that once the child knows the lip/tongue positions they will be able to apply them themselves.   I mean, it jumps to colored squares very quickly and doesn't integrate anything from the lip names/pictures section that I remember -- except an occasional quick mention of lip popper or such.  Perhaps they assume it will be a SLP applying it who can integrate it easily?     Anyway --  I did not find that to be the case for my DD - it was work for her to apply them and I did not jump to colored squares with her at all (I made her pick out the appropriate picture - to think about what her mouth should be doing)-- if I had moved to Barton after that I would also have had to find a way to integrate LIPS --- but I had always assumed that was more of an unusual case than the norm.

[Sugarfoot]

You might think through it the inverse way.  Unless a child has phonemic awareness issues, he will naturally already distinguish this.  The sounds and the mouth production will be connected in his brain and the child will, in the normal course of things, develop that phonemic awareness. The terms are abstract but the actual phonemic awareness will develop naturally, which is why Barton can say a 5 yo with no issues SHOULD be able to pass her pre-test. It only needs to be taught explicitly for a child with a disability.  But you are correct, teaching it is golden and magic!   :)

 

Well, "the normal course of things" doesn't really happen at my house ;), but yes, you're absolutely right, a child without any issues would hear the 2 sounds naturally. 

 

Susan Barton really is terrific. If you'd rather put your thoughts in an email, she'll write back. My DS needed the first 3 levels of Barton and then was ready to move on.

 

OP, I want to encourage you a little bit. Your DD is doing far more than my DS could've done at 7. I'm actually pretty impressed with everything she does! 

 

I remember being told that my DS might never read for pleasure. My heart sank. But with a lot of hard work on both our parts, he's become a fabulous student who loves to read. He took the ACT without accommodations and is thriving in college.

 

It will all work out!

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Thank you for the encouragement! This has all been so overwhelming. I haven't done much since Saturday to work on this as all my kids came down with colds/coughs and then a stomach virus. (And chance that DD coming down with a cold affected our test results? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?)

 

We've gotten as far finding a couple universities that do testing - one on a sliding pay scale so maybe it won't be so expensive. I haven't had a chance to call the insurance company yet. I also played a "syllable game" with all the kids the other day. DD can correctly divide multi-syllable words 100% of the time and but also divides one syllable words into two syllables 100% of the time. So we'll need to work on that. I plan to do more of these "games" with the kids (when they're all done coughing, sneezing, and puking :-P) to try to wrap my head around our issues a little better. And to make sure no one else has things going on that I've overlooked. The more I read, the more I see my other kids in the lists of LD symptoms but I think that's probably more due to information overload than actual problems.

 

I want to read some good books on LD. I've been given lots of suggestions but is there a top one or two that I should start with?

 

We were talking last night about getting vision and hearing testing done while we figure out our neuropsych options. I know to look for a developmental ophthalmologist but what about the hearing test. Can I go to just anyone for auditory processing testing? Do neuropsychs do that as part of their testing? If so, should I just wait to do it then?

 

What about the reading we currently do? Should I keep having her read to me every day like I have been, or should I put that aside while we work on these other things? I hate to lose what we've gained but maybe our focus should be elsewhere for now.

 

Thanks for all the help everyone! I really appreciate it!

[PeterPan]

Developmental optometrist--you find them through covd.org

 

Vision won't change the phonological process scores.  In the DSM it's going to be Reading Disorder a specific learning disability.  It's totally about phonological processing, no vision.  

 

Your main thing is to make sure that whoever does the testing will run a CTOPP or other test of phonological processing to look for learning disabilities.  If they aren't going to do that, they aren't doing what you need.  Yes, it sounds like it will be obvious that a university grad student could diagnose it.  Your ps can and some SLPs will.  How long is the wait to get in?  That's always the kicker.  The sooner you get your evals, the sooner you get started on intervention.  You're needing to do LIPS (what Barton recommends) and then go into a serious dyslexia program like Barton.  The sooner you get into it, the sooner you start making progress.  If it's going to be a year wait or something to get evals, you're going to want to start intervention earlier.  If you pay more for a private eval but can get it sooner, that's something to consider.  Now that you know you have a problem, you don't want a huge gap before you start effective intervention.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

We want to do the vision test because of reversals, skipping words, switching letters, etc. Could all of that be a result of an auditory processing disorder? Is it normal to have both auditory and visual things going on at the same time?

 

Is the CTOPP the most important one I'm looking for? Maybe it would be easier/faster to get it done with ps or SPL than waiting for full private evals. I haven't had time to make any phone calls yet but I've been told it can take months to get an appointment. I haven't looked for a SLP. I'll check into that too.

[OneStepAtATime]

Read The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide.  And if the idea of dyslexia is stressing you out read The Dyslexic Advantage by the same authors.  But there are a lot of resources out there.  I started with these and it really helped me to get a handle on things.

 

FWIW, DD did reversals, skipping words, switching letters, etc. but has nothing wrong with her vision, as far as any tests have revealed so far.  DS, on the other hand, did less of those things but he DOES have a developmental vision issue.  Both are dyslexic.

 

Press for the full eval if you can.  If you go through the school. read up first.  Get knowledgeable as much as you can and ask LOTS of questions.  Some schools do great evals.  Some do fair.  Some have no clue what they are doing and may send you in the wrong direction.  Our school eval was less than useless.  They quite literally had no clue what they were talking about or doing.  Same with my nephew.  They had no clue and the recommendations were ludicrously wrong.  However, some have had excellent experiences with going through a school system.  Network.  Ask in your community.  Find other parents that have gone that route.  See what they think.

 

That is all true with neuropsychs as well, though, so definitely read up and do research.  Skim through the threads on this board.  Ask questions.  Don't trust that anyone with a title actually knows better what is going on.  They may very well know a lot.  But they may also be stuck in the 60's or 70's or even 80's with no current knowledge about the latest scientific research.

 

Hugs and good luck.