Immersion reading questions

[Innisfree]

Dd10 is on the spectrum. I've always been concerned about her reading because she guesses at multisyllable words and tends to mangle proper names if I'm not sitting there covering up part of the word and making her sound it out. For instance, reading Harry Potter, Hagrid became Hadrig.

 

She has seen a reading specialist this past fall who said she does not have dyslexia because she shows too much awareness of phonological rules and too much ability decoding nonsense words. The specialist thought she simply rushed and was unwilling to slow down to figure out longer words. This was also my dh's perspective.

 

We will be pursuing more testing. In the mean time, I'm wondering about immersion reading on Kindles. I know this can be good for kids whose reading is very limited, but dd is essentially on grade level. She loves to read, but just won't (apparently) slow down and figure things out, and ends up missing a certain amount.

 

Does anyone know, from a perspective of how the brain learns reading, if immersion reading is likely to lead to more reading ability or become a crutch? It seems to me that it's closer to a see-and-say approach than to sounding out the word, but I can't force her to sound out every word anyway. Immersion reading would tend to reinforce identifying the spoken word with the symbols on the page, just not the phonetic pathway between them. Does anyone more knowledgeable than me have some ideas here? Would this be good for her overall?

[Ellie]

Dd10 is on the spectrum. I've always been concerned about her reading because she guesses at multisyllable words and tends to mangle proper names if I'm not sitting there covering up part of the word and making her sound it out. For instance, reading Harry Potter, Hagrid became Hadrig.

 

She has seen a reading specialist this past fall who said she does not have dyslexia because she shows too much awareness of phonological rules and too much ability decoding nonsense words. The specialist thought she simply rushed and was unwilling to slow down to figure out longer words. This was also my dh's perspective.

 

We will be pursuing more testing. In the mean time, I'm wondering about immersion reading on Kindles. I know this can be good for kids whose reading is very limited, but dd is essentially on grade level. She loves to read, but just won't (apparently) slow down and figure things out, and ends up missing a certain amount.

 

Does anyone know, from a perspective of how the brain learns reading, if immersion reading is likely to lead to more reading ability or become a crutch? It seems to me that it's closer to a see-and-say approach than to sounding out the word, but I can't force her to sound out every word anyway. Immersion reading would tend to reinforce identifying the spoken word with the symbols on the page, just not the phonetic pathway between them. Does anyone more knowledgeable than me have some ideas here? Would this be good for her overall?

 

Not sure what "immersion reading" is, but my recommendation, not knowing what you have done in the past to teach her to read, is Spalding.  It addresses all learning modalities, and it has been proven successful with children who have learning issues of all kinds.

[Innisfree]

Ellie, thanks for answering. Immersion reading on Kindles pairs a book with the audiobook and highlights each word as it is read aloud. It would not be for teaching reading, but for reinforcing her free reading, so I could be sure she wasn't missing content. She's self conscious about, for example, discussing books she's reading, and I think part of the problem is that she knows she's mispronouncing a lot of names.

 

We've just gotten through a lot of testing leading to the ASD diagnosis, and we will plow on with complete neuropsych testing, but may have to do some therapy first to get her frustration tolerance to the point that the neuropsych testing can be most useful. As far as she is concerned, she refuses to acknowledge any problems with reading.

 

In school ( k and 1st grade) they used a whole- language approach and encouraged a lot of guessing. When we brought her home we went through Phonics Pathways, Reading Pathways, sand have continued to practice reading aloud. I feel like I'm the only one who keeps insisting there's a problem, but... There is. She may be on grade level, but she can't read aloud fluently, and she can't or won't use syllabication and phonics to tackle unfamiliar words.

 

As I said, we'll gradually sort all this out. Right now I'm just not sure if hearing a voice say "Hagrid" while she reads "Hagrid" is going to help her learn to read it, or encourage laziness. That sounds like it could come across judgementally, and I don't mean it to do so. I just really want her to ultimately go to phonics first, automatically, when she comes to a new word. But we don't read familiar words phonetically, do we? So if the immersion reading helps a bunch of unfamiliar words become familiar, is that okay? Am I making sense?

[OneStepAtATime]

What are the qualifications for the reading specialist that did the assessment?  I ask because I and many others have had "specialists" misdiagnose our kiddos.  Especially if the child is 2e (gifted or at least highly intelligent and also has learning challenges).  Have you looked into stealth dyslexia?

 

You might look at reading The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide and Homeschooling Your Struggling Learner by Kathy Kuhl along with checking out the Learning Abled Kids website by Sandy Cook.  Also, the LC board is very helpful.  

 

As for Immersion Reading, I love it.  The child can read books that are more advanced than they might normally be able to read fluently so they are exposed to more advanced vocabulary/concepts/grammar/etc while also hearing and SEEING the words being read correctly.  Doesn't teach reading, as you say, but is a good reinforcer.  I highly recommend Immersion Reading for readers who have some issues especially.

 

You might consider running her through a true Orton-Gillingham based program.  Something like Wilson or Barton or Seeing Stars.  They are expensive but if you are paying for tutoring and the tutoring isn't working that well then doing one of these programs yourself with your child could actually end up being significantly cheaper and more effective.

[Innisfree]

Yes, I have worried about the stealth dyslexia possibility. The specialist has an MS in speech and language pathology and is a Wilson instructor. She was fairly dismissive when I asked about stealth dyslexia. Maybe I should have posted on the learning challenges board, I was just hoping to get the widest range of opinions on the immersion reading.

 

I'm glad it's worked well for you. So you don't think it reduces reliance on phonics? I'm inclined to give it a try.

[Ellie]

Ellie, thanks for answering. Immersion reading on Kindles pairs a book with the audiobook and highlights each word as it is read aloud. It would not be for teaching reading, but for reinforcing her free reading, so I could be sure she wasn't missing content. She's self conscious about, for example, discussing books she's reading, and I think part of the problem is that she knows she's mispronouncing a lot of names.

 

We've just gotten through a lot of testing leading to the ASD diagnosis, and we will plow on with complete neuropsych testing, but may have to do some therapy first to get her frustration tolerance to the point that the neuropsych testing can be most useful. As far as she is concerned, she refuses to acknowledge any problems with reading.

 

In school ( k and 1st grade) they used a whole- language approach and encouraged a lot of guessing. When we brought her home we went through Phonics Pathways, Reading Pathways, sand have continued to practice reading aloud. I feel like I'm the only one who keeps insisting there's a problem, but... There is. She may be on grade level, but she can't read aloud fluently, and she can't or won't use syllabication and phonics to tackle unfamiliar words.

 

As I said, we'll gradually sort all this out. Right now I'm just not sure if hearing a voice say "Hagrid" while she reads "Hagrid" is going to help her learn to read it, or encourage laziness. That sounds like it could come across judgementally, and I don't mean it to do so. I just really want her to ultimately go to phonics first, automatically, when she comes to a new word. But we don't read familiar words phonetically, do we? So if the immersion reading helps a bunch of unfamiliar words become familiar, is that okay? Am I making sense?

 

It's amazing how difficult it is to help a child overcome that sight-reading mess when you bring them home. You're still seeing the fallout, lo, these many years later. I believe that Spalding would make a difference, as you could approach it as a spelling method, which she might not be offended by, even though her reading will improve.

 

Yes, we do read familiar words phonetically. That is, we learned them phonetically, and over time they became so familiar that now we recognize them without even thinking about it. The reason that "immersion reading" wouldn't be all that beneficial is that most children will not intuitively be able to apply phonetic and spelling protocols just because they heard those words pronounced multiple times. Most children *need* direct instruction. 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, I have worried about the stealth dyslexia possibility. The specialist has an MS in speech and language pathology and is a Wilson instructor. She was fairly dismissive when I asked about stealth dyslexia. Maybe I should have posted on the learning challenges board, I was just hoping to get the widest range of opinions on the immersion reading.

 

I'm glad it's worked well for you. So you don't think it reduces reliance on phonics? I'm inclined to give it a try.

FWIW, my mother is a Reading specialist and taught for many years in the public school system.  She has several degrees.  She taught remedial reading and reading to gifted students as well as teaching at the level of all the kids that were in between.  She taught at the High School and Middle School levels.  But with all that knowledge and background she did not know how to help her own grandkids and did not understand dyslexia, not really.  And she did not understand stealth dyslexia.  In fact, no one did which is one of the reasons my kids went so very long without a diagnosis. 

 

As for Immersion Reading and it negatively affecting phonics, I made the mistake early on of failing to recognize just how detrimental it was for my daughter to only be exposed to books she could actually read herself.  Because she had trouble decoding and had severe fluency issues, skipping words, guessing at words, etc. she was not actually gaining much by having to read on her own.  In fact, she was developing terrible reading habits that became exceedingly hard to break once we started true remediation.   She also fell further and further behind on content knowledge/vocabulary/grammar/concept understanding.  

 

It took getting an assessment from someone who actually had a clue (as opposed to the original "specialists" we had do assessments) to finally see that reading remediation and exposure to stories and even print could and at least for my kids SHOULD be separated out.  In other words I needed to start pressing harder to give them the specific instruction needed to improve their decoding/fluency/grammar skills while also, separately, still giving them tons of exposure to great stories and content material in a manner where they can hear and see the material read fluently.  In other words, provide ways they can hear and see the words/concepts/grammar used correctly in context even if they are not yet capable of fluidly decoding at that level by themselves.  Does that make sense?

 

Giving them that exposure has made a world of difference in their ability to function and understand across the board.  It has also helped them to realize when they are misdecoding a word and has expanded their working vocabulary significantly.  Far more than just some vocabulary program.  Immersion Reading has been part of that process.  I also turn on Closed Captioning when we watch TV. It really can help tremendously.  But it doesn't specifically remediate reading issues.  That needs to be dealt with too, but systematically and sort of separately, KWIM?

[Incognito]

I think I have a similar child to yours - it almost seems like I am making up the idea of DC having a problem with reading, except now I have a psych-ed and diagnosed learning disabilities that show that I am not making it up!    

 

For us, we don't have a specific dyslexia diagnosis, but if you google "stealth dyslexia" we fit it pretty exactly.  It is hard when your child appears to be on grade level but is really struggling.  

 

We have a Kindle fire for Immersion reading with the idea of proper reading reinforcement but not as an instructional device.  We use it at times when we would otherwise be using an audiobook, so for my DC it is just an added layer - I am not expecting it to be reading time (but more like read-aloud time).

 

FWIW, you could make a habit of reading the first chapter of books out loud to your child/together, so that the names are pronounced right (if that is the issue you want to target to help her discuss stories better).

 

There are online reading programs that can work with these kinds of problems.  We've been using one this year and I *think* it is making a really positive difference - time will tell.

 

[Innisfree]

Thanks, OneStep. I do see what you mean about providing appropriate content while remediating reading. Ironically, now that I've introduced the idea to my dd, she is balking at the immersion reading. We'll see. I'm going to get a book or two for her to try if she decides she's willing.

 

Next, to hijack my own thread, how would you choose someone to diagnose reading problems? Part of a neuropsych process, or separate?

[Innisfree]

Ellie, yes, I think a lot of what we see may trace back to sight-reading issues. At this point it's hard to know what is bad habits and what is an organic problem.

 

Could you or anyone who knows summarize the similarities and differences between Spalding and an O-G system, please?

[Innisfree]

Incognito, which online program have you found helpful? Thanks!

[blondeviolin]

:bigear: because although my son is ONLY seven, we've seen lots of issues similar already. He was diagnosed as gifted at a young age, but his reading ability doesn't line with much of that.

 

FWIW, my son is loving immersion reading. It allows him to enjoy books that he likes, but are a bit of work (and thus not enjoyable) if he were just reading alone.

[Incognito]

Incognito, which online program have you found helpful? Thanks!

 

http://www.scilearn.com/products/fast-forword

 

We aren't done yet, but for now it really seems to target the areas of struggle for us, and it puts a computer in the position of correcting the mistakes, not me, which is nice for me for a while. :)

 

We're using the language/literacy and reading sections.

[Ellie]

Ellie, yes, I think a lot of what we see may trace back to sight-reading issues. At this point it's hard to know what is bad habits and what is an organic problem.

 

Could you or anyone who knows summarize the similarities and differences between Spalding and an O-G system, please?

 

I only know Spalding. :-)

 

It almost doesn't matter if it's bad habit or organic. Spalding would work in either case.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks, OneStep. I do see what you mean about providing appropriate content while remediating reading. Ironically, now that I've introduced the idea to my dd, she is balking at the immersion reading. We'll see. I'm going to get a book or two for her to try if she decides she's willing.

 

Next, to hijack my own thread, how would you choose someone to diagnose reading problems? Part of a neuropsych process, or separate?

Neuropsych eval, and hopefully someone that also specializes in 2e kids, just in case.  Kids that are very, very bright and have learning challenges are notoriously difficult to accurately assess.  Reading problems can be co-morbid with other issues.  And you want to know the big picture, which should include not just the issues but any underlying strengths as well.  You need a specialist for that.  Otherwise you could be spinning your wheels for years, leaving underlying issues ineffectively addressed and underlying strengths underutilized or untapped altogether.

 

For instance, both of my kids are dyslexic, but they have different underlying strengths and weaknesses so different approaches were needed for each child even if we are using the same basic programs for much of what they are learning.  DS absolutely needs an auditory component and usually color, for one thing, or his comprehension drops like a stone.  DD actually does not do well with only an auditory component and color distracts her.  

 

As for Immersion Reading, one thing that DS loves is that it is incredibly portable so he can have several books going and carry them easily around on the one little device.  The audio/text just starts up again wherever he left off when he has to shut it down.  It gives him a lot of independence to read more advanced material, too.  He loves history books, for instance, and has been studying Erwin Rommel on the side just for fun, but the books he is reading are more High School or College level.  This gives him a chance to read at his intellectual level instead of being held back by his less advanced fluency level.   (We work on fluency separately with a OG based program).  He also loves that we got him a good pair of headsets (not earbuds).  When he wants to listen and read his book while being near the family but we are all doing other things he doesn't bother anyone (just like reading silently with a regular book) but can still be nearby and participate in conversations when the opportunity arises.  He just pauses the book.