A "reluctant everything" kind of kid?

[StephanieB]

My dd8 is just a "reluctant everything" kind of kid.  When she fussed about learning how to write a sentence or paragraph I thought, "Oh, she's just a reluctant writer."  Then I try to get her to read something and she grumbles so next thing I know is she is a "reluctant reader."  Don't even get me started with math!  Definitely reluctant...  The problem seems to be when something get's a little big challenging she closes up shop and doesn't want to do it anymore.  She still can't construct a complete sentence.  She "hated" Spelling Workout because it expected her to actually write a paragraph!  She whines over copy work.  She groans over grammar.  She likes to read unless it is a reader for any type of "school" stuff and then it is like the worst thing I've ever tried to get her to do.

 

She does enjoy All About Spelling - it is very interactive which helps.  It was frustrating for me because her little personality is such that she has to organize all the tiles before, during and after.  Agh!  She breezed through Levels 1 and 2.  Level 3 got a little tougher and then next thing I know she is crying because she missed a word.  One word.  Then spelling is horrible and she doesn't want to do it anymore.

 

She liked math until we started working on Multiplication Tables.  She cries because she has to actually work to memorize them and she is not automatically good at it.  Long division?  Ugh!  She will do 2 or 3 problems and then tell me she doesn't want to do any more.  It's too hard.  (We are using Singapore 3A right now)

 

She likes Wile's Science in the Beginning.  Of course she does.  It is hands on...and you can't mess it up.  There is nothing to get wrong.  (I like this program but the every single lesson having an experiment is getting old).

 

Anyway, I guess I am just frustrated because the only time she doesn't dig in her heels is when the subject is a "song and dance" and she is automatically good at it.  I am so burned out from trying to find just the "right" curriculum that really sings to her and makes her want to work with me.  I've tried a lot of different curricula and I think the bouncing around at this point is making it worse.  (As in, I don't like this, so lets switch...again).  I've tried having extended breaks to unwind.  I've tried field trips.  I've tried letting her choose what to study.  Nothing seems to be working.  I have another daughter who is a K'er and I can't spend this much time tap-dancing my 3rd grader through all her subjects while my K'er waits and waits and waits for me.  

 

What do I do with a "reluctant everything" kid?  Do I have to make every subject a song and dance?  Its exhausting and it is, honestly, making me feel a little resentful that I have to constantly try to make school palatable.  And, truthfully, it hurts my feelings that I put so much work into school and my daughter is so grumpy about it.  Which is silly, I know...  Sigh.

 

Advice?  

 

 

[Aurelia]

DD used to do that, and I treated it like a discipline issue. I told her, basically, that she doesn't have to be happy to do the work, but she can't whine about it. If she complains, there are consequences. Occasionally I'll tell her she can have X treat if there is no whining for the day, and she works really hard to earn it. I think part of it is the age, too. 8-9 is just a whine-fest in my experience (I've spoken with the moms of several of DD's friends, and nearly all said the same). None of the stuff that was novel at 5 or 6 (school, helping with chores, etc) is new anymore, and it feels more like work.

 

Switching around curricula when she complains is going to compound the problem, because she knows that if she makes enough of a fuss, you'll change (and likely start from a point where she already knows the material and it will be easy). Find something that will get done and stick with it, letting her know that there will be no switching from that point forward and complaints will not be tolerated. 

 

It may help to point out how HARD it was for her when she first started reading, but it's easy now. Or how TERRIBLY DIFFICULT learning 2+3 was. Remind her how things can seem hard at first, but get easier with practice. One of our mantras here is "practice makes it easier." I still have to remind DD of that periodically, when she's moping on the floor because I've asked her to do something "impossible" (in reality, just new or a little challenging). 

[Farrar]

But she's not a reluctant everything. She's a kid who needs things to be hands on. A lot of kids are like that. Kids like that are fun. They're often doers and explorers. And there are a lot of programs out there that make it easier for moms.

 

Also, reading your post doesn't feel like it's a discipline issue, as suggested above. It seems like either the work is too hard and she's trying to tell you she's not really ready for all this stuff. I mean, not every kid is ready to do long division at age 8. It's tough stuff. Grammar is something that some kids need you to just save until they're really ready (and then they learn it really fast, I promise). Or, alternately, it sounds like she may have a touch of anxiety and perfectionism. Pushing perfectionist kids doesn't work. It's how you make them shut down so they don't do any work at all.

 

I see what you're saying about song and dance, but she's 8. What's wrong with making learning enjoyable? And it doesn't have to be that parent intensive. Programs can make it easier for you by having it all planned out the way AAS does it. She might really thrive with Right Start Math, for example. I don't know how many other kids you have pulling your attention away, but if you can give that sort of interactive lessons, it sounds like she would thrive. And really, in a couple of years, if you just loathe science experiments and art projects and so forth, then you'll be able to hand it over to her. You'll be able to say, here's what I want the finished product to be, here's the steps, now you do it. You'll be able to hand her a science like TOPS, which is experiments written to the student. You'll be able to back off and she'll still be able to do all her doing things.

 

I'm hearing resentment from you about doing science experiments and I guess i don't get it. That's learning. It's process. I'll bet she would do really well with a lot more open ended learning in general. Like, how does she feel about writing when mechanics don't matter? How does she feel about math if you play games instead of doing worksheets? That stuff isn't "easier" - it's just a different approach. If it's the one she needs, can you accept that?

[Critterfixer]

Is she actually doing the experiments, or just sitting back and watching you do them? I don't know that program.

[StephanieB]

She is a perfectionist.  True that.

I know that hands-on fun is the way she learns best.  She's 8.  Most kids learn by doing and having fun.  What frustrates me the most is that it is a "you'd better make this fun Mom or I'm not going to do it" kind of daily occurrence.  It's exhausting to try to make everything fun all the time.

 

Sometimes things aren't fun.  Like going to the DMV.  Or the dentist.  Or making dinner.  Ugh!!  Maybe I'm just burned out.

 

As for SITB - It depends.  Sometimes I demonstrate the experiment first, then she does the experiment on her own.  It is a good program and she likes it a lot.  She keeps a notebook and typically journals by drawing.  I don't know if it is resentment over science or just the fact that having an experiment every time we do science is a little bit over much for me personally.  I seem to never have the materials I need when we need them (aka 2 L bottles or a pipe cleaner or a flashlight that actually works).  And I guess sometimes I feel like it interferes with our other subjects like Math or Language Arts.  Which is dumb and the wrong attitude I know....  

 

Yeah.  I think I'm burned out.  

 

 

[sweetpea3829]

I don't know...

 

I kind of disagree with Farrar on this.

 

Some kids are just really hard to motivate.  We've had periods of time with all of mine, where they were whiny about having to do anything "hard".  If they didn't get it right away....complete shut down.  "I can't...I don't want to..."  They've all gone through it.  And some of them have periodically gone through this "phase" more than once.  

 

To me...that's a discipline issue.  Because the above poster is right...there are many things in life that we have to do that we don't want to do.  And I don't personally believe 8 is too young to start learning that.  

 

So when I have a student going through such a phase...I usually employ an extinction method.  If you whine, grumble, or complain about your work...if I hear "I caaaaaaan't..." or a huffy puffy...or anything else...I'm taking away a behavior coin.  Every single time.  This is a big deal to my kids because earning behavior coins takes time...so losing one, or more...is a tough pill to swallow.  

 

But this approach requires me to be sensitive to whether or not they actually CAN do the work.  Honestly...9 out of 10, they sure can.  Regardless...it's imperative that you be nearby to make sure they're not actually struggling.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

I have no idea if this is relevant, but I'll share: my 8 year old has a very strong need for autonomy.  She really, really needs to be able to make choices for herself in order to be engaged.  The choice can be as simple as which of two maths we use, or what to do for writing today, or what order we do subject in.  As long as I keep that in mind and provide choices, she is engaged and cooperative.  When I ride roughshod over this, she isn't.

 

But here is the thing: it doesn't manifest as rebellion or lack of cooperation - it's not a discipline problem, we run a pretty tight ship around here.  It is lack of engagement, lack of interest, shutting down and closing in, which manifests as not showing what I know she knows, not being able to think about the problems, being distracted by her feelings of dissatisfaction without really even being able to articulate it.  It manifests as being "reluctant everything" - which she is not, when she is engaged.

 

This is totally different from my first child, who is very cheerful and compliant.  Even though I've known that the 2nd girl is different, it's taken me awhile to realize how much it affects our schooling and how important it is for me to back off and let her make choices.  It seems like little things to me - who really cares whether we do writing or spelling next? Does it really matter?  Well, yeah.  It matters to her a lot - it's everything.  It's not about writing or spelling, it's about whether I respect her as an autonomous person.  It makes all the difference in the world.  I keep banging my head against this, but it's finally starting to sink in - meeting this child's needs makes everything go smoothly.  Trying to make her fit my mold (or be like her sister) is not only counterproductive and frustrating, it's disrespectful.

 

Anyway, I have no idea if this is relevant to your situation.  But sometimes it is the little things that can make all the difference.  How much choice does she have in your day? About what you do, and when, and in what order?

[Chrysalis Academy]

She is a perfectionist.  True that.

I know that hands-on fun is the way she learns best.  She's 8.  Most kids learn by doing and having fun.  What frustrates me the most is that it is a "you'd better make this fun Mom or I'm not going to do it" kind of daily occurrence.  It's exhausting to try to make everything fun all the time.

 

Sometimes things aren't fun.  Like going to the DMV.  Or the dentist.  Or making dinner.  Ugh!!  Maybe I'm just burned out.

 

As for SITB - It depends.  Sometimes I demonstrate the experiment first, then she does the experiment on her own.  It is a good program and she likes it a lot.  She keeps a notebook and typically journals by drawing.  I don't know if it is resentment over science or just the fact that having an experiment every time we do science is a little bit over much for me personally.  I seem to never have the materials I need when we need them (aka 2 L bottles or a pipe cleaner or a flashlight that actually works).  And I guess sometimes I feel like it interferes with our other subjects like Math or Language Arts.  Which is dumb and the wrong attitude I know....  

 

Yeah.  I think I'm burned out.  

 

Have you listened to SWB's lecture on Burnout? I relistened to it again last night.  Pretty encouraging, even liberating.

[StephanieB]

Oh!  What a great idea!  I'm on the hunt for that audio now.  Thanks for the suggestion!

[Farrar]

I could be wrong... It's a fine line between disengaged and defiant. Or between struggling and whiny. I have also essentially had to say to my kids on many occasions, suck it up, work is hard sometimes.

 

I guess I just hear that burn out in your post, Stephanie. And your disappointment that she's such a hands on learner. That, coupled with perfectionism... I just think... you can't change your kid's learning style but you can change your own attitude and approach (I don't mean to imply it's so easy, I know it isn't, but it is within your control to decide how to teach and how to present the lessons and what attitude to have as the teacher... if you know that can have a great effect, then isn't that worth it?). And if she's really a perfectionist, then that's a form of anxiety. She needs help with that. Punishing perfectionism is almost always going to backfire.

 

It sounds like she's on track for everything. She's in a great math on track, she can read, she can write a little. Whether the solution is to come down hard on the discipline end or to loosen up your day, give her some control, do more hands on projects, etc. to see if it can turn her around, you can say to yourself, I have time, getting a good attitude for learning is the most important thing right now because it will pay off in spades later on when the work is harder and there's a lot more of it to do in a few years.

[redsquirrel]

I don't have much to offer, but she does sound like a perfectionist. She'd rather not try something than try and fail. It also sounds like she sees the value in being right, or getting 100%, but not the learning value in trying to do something new. That is a hard situation to be in and might require some research on your part. Teaching perfectionists can be a hard row to hoe.

 

And on the subject of science.... gather your materials up NOW, before you need them. Take some time this weekend or next and make a list of everything you need to get through the year. Baking soda, pipe cleaners, aluminum foil, a bottle of vinegar, a 3X3 mirror, a thermometer etc etc and put them in a bin or a box. Just do it. This is what teaching hands on science looks like, kwim? It will make your life so much easier and you will feel so much better. You can even tell her to go get the materials.

 

A more experienced homeschool mom told me to do that for science every summer and I always do. I cannot tell you how much easier it makes everything. I have no excuse to skip the science and no grounds for complaint.

[mamamindy]

My dd8 is just a "reluctant everything" kind of kid.  When she fussed about learning how to write a sentence or paragraph I thought, "Oh, she's just a reluctant writer."  Then I try to get her to read something and she grumbles so next thing I know is she is a "reluctant reader."  Don't even get me started with math!  Definitely reluctant...  The problem seems to be when something get's a little big challenging she closes up shop and doesn't want to do it anymore.  She still can't construct a complete sentence.  She "hated" Spelling Workout because it expected her to actually write a paragraph!  She whines over copy work.  She groans over grammar.  She likes to read unless it is a reader for any type of "school" stuff and then it is like the worst thing I've ever tried to get her to do.

 

She does enjoy All About Spelling - it is very interactive which helps.  It was frustrating for me because her little personality is such that she has to organize all the tiles before, during and after.  Agh!  She breezed through Levels 1 and 2.  Level 3 got a little tougher and then next thing I know she is crying because she missed a word.  One word.  Then spelling is horrible and she doesn't want to do it anymore.

 

She liked math until we started working on Multiplication Tables.  She cries because she has to actually work to memorize them and she is not automatically good at it.  Long division?  Ugh!  She will do 2 or 3 problems and then tell me she doesn't want to do any more.  It's too hard.  (We are using Singapore 3A right now)

 

She likes Wile's Science in the Beginning.  Of course she does.  It is hands on...and you can't mess it up.  There is nothing to get wrong.  (I like this program but the every single lesson having an experiment is getting old).

 

Anyway, I guess I am just frustrated because the only time she doesn't dig in her heels is when the subject is a "song and dance" and she is automatically good at it.  I am so burned out from trying to find just the "right" curriculum that really sings to her and makes her want to work with me.  I've tried a lot of different curricula and I think the bouncing around at this point is making it worse.  (As in, I don't like this, so lets switch...again).  I've tried having extended breaks to unwind.  I've tried field trips.  I've tried letting her choose what to study.  Nothing seems to be working.  I have another daughter who is a K'er and I can't spend this much time tap-dancing my 3rd grader through all her subjects while my K'er waits and waits and waits for me.  

 

What do I do with a "reluctant everything" kid?  Do I have to make every subject a song and dance?  Its exhausting and it is, honestly, making me feel a little resentful that I have to constantly try to make school palatable.  And, truthfully, it hurts my feelings that I put so much work into school and my daughter is so grumpy about it.  Which is silly, I know...  Sigh.

 

Advice?  

:grouphug:   THis is all I have.  My DD 8yo has similar tendencies, and today was just hard.  I am glad you are getting some advice.

[Elisabet1]

We never wrote a paragraph in Spelling Workout.

 

Aside from that, no advice at all here. My 10 yr old is the same way. Unless it is dance or art, he just acts like he is being killed when asked to do work.