Farrar Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I am feeling crazy frustrated with math for BalletBoy right now. This got long. Sorry. Some background... When my boys were younger, we started with MEP (that bombed) then I tried Math Mammoth and that really resonated with BalletBoy. I think he liked that it was pretty straightforward. So while his twin spent a bunch of time doing nothing for math (anxiety, argh) and then did all of Miquon and Beast Academy, BalletBoy stuck with MM until he finished most of MM4. At that point, he was feeling really frustrated with it and I was too. All those little in between steps where MM makes you break down the problems in a million ways were driving him bonkers. So I said, okay, let's try something else. We did and eventually ended up doing Math in Focus. We're now almost done with MiF 5a. I have the text and the workbook, not the teacher guide, just fyi. We also have done Process Skills in Problem Solving. We do a little bit from Upper Elementary Challenge Math. We do lots of math games and projects. There's a ton of math enrichment in the house. But it's not going well for him, IMO. He could use more fact practice, which is fine. I'm not a stickler for this and he's doing it on the side. He knows them, he just doesn't have that automatic recall that is best. He'll get there. It may be holding him back a little, but not a huge amount. It's more that everything is either too easy or too hard. Most of MiF is too easy. A lot of this fifth grade Process Skills book is too hard, which we didn't feel with the fourth grade book. The level one problems on Challenge Math are too easy. The level two is sometimes about right, but the level three is so hard he can't do them most of the time. I really feel for him because I often found this in school myself. Math was always too easy or too hard and never engaging, you know? He gets really stuck in his thinking so often. Like, he'll do the first step in a problem wrong and when I show him, he can't stop himself from going back to his original steps over and over and over. If I try to illustrate by showing him a simpler problem or breaking it down, he can't even listen to what I'm asking. We've had a yelling match several times where I'm sitting there going, BalletBoy, the first step is just add them together, what's 5+5 and he's screaming at me things like, 452!!! Because that's what he thinks the final answer is. But it isn't. Because he did the first step wrong. And he can't even hear me that I'm saying something simple. This overstates it a little. Sometimes he follows along, does grok multi-step problems, does find a challenge that is doable for him. And for things that are algorithmic, he is pretty good at them and pretty good at explaining the math behind them. Like, he has gotten so much better at long division this year, is multiplying and dividing fractions, is good with place value and decimals. So there are positive things. But he goes through that stuff and gets really bored with it once he's mastered it. And getting it to carry over into real world stuff, math projects, word problems, and math puzzles just doesn't seem to be happening. And he's starting to get really disaffected with math. He doesn't really like it anymore. It's such a contrast to his brother, who LOVES math now. He is super engaged with it, he is not immune to getting anxious or upset about math himself, but in general, he finds problem solving really satisfying. But a lot of the resources that I think have shaped him into a "math thinker" like Miquon and Beast are things I tried with BalletBoy that didn't seem to work for him. At the time I thought, so what, he's chugging along, no big deal. But now I'm wondering where we went wrong, you know? I'm not sure what I want exactly. Maybe a different program that's more spiral? Maybe a resource for really complex multi-step problems that use really easy numbers? We obviously don't need more "fun" math stuff, but I want him to be more engaged. Maybe he'll just never be mathy and I should just push through and get him to suck it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Thinking out loud, sounds like he's on the cusp of being ready for prealgebra, if he has fractions and decimals mastered. I would think along the lines of what topics, or extensions of topics (percents? negative numbers? etc), you want him to cover before prealgebra and what program(s) you are considering for the pre algebra level when he's ready. Reading your post again, the problem is with the problem solving rather than particular topics? It's not like he doesn't understand a concept but has trouble with figuring out the steps? It's hard to see where the problem lies from what you wrote - general displeasure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 Yeah, sorry. I'm all over the place. Yes... problems... general displeasure on his part, solving multistep problems, applying math... and a generally odd mix of both boredom and frustration. I think he is on the cusp of being ready for pre-algebra just in terms of topics covered and mastered. In terms of actual readiness, I'm less sure. I do have Dolciani Pre-A on the shelf. And Jousting Armadillos. Not sure if either will be right for him though. And I also want to go slow. I think he needs another year of math before he's really ready to move to a real Pre-A program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 A lot of it is that today we had three (THREE!) bouts of anger during the math block. One over being bored by some problems which were, in fact, really easy for him (simplifying equations in MiF - he's done Hands on Equations and this was a piece of cake), one over why you have to write it as 5x not x5 and how they're really the same thing (don't even get me started on this), and one over a multi-step problem in Process Skills where he (yet again) really struggled with the idea of a portion of the remainder instead of a portion of the whole and couldn't answer as I tried to break down the problem for him because he was too busy looking at his original wrong answer and trying to reconfigure it to become right by doing random things like cutting it in half. I finally marked it out after having told him to stop referring to it several times and his feelings were really hurt by that. Like, really, really hurt. :banghead: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmama2 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I've seen Life of Fred pre-A recommended as a pre-pre-A. Maybe it would make a nice change for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 Yeah something like Fred might be good... but not Fred, which he thinks is not at all appealing. (And I have my own issues with Fred.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsplaymath Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I wonder if it would help to move away from answer-getting math for awhile and play with math that doesn't have a specific right answer. Where the focus is more on explaining what you think and why. Like these websites: Estimation 180 Would You Rather? Math Arguments 180 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 I wonder if it would help to move away from answer-getting math for awhile and play with math that doesn't have a specific right answer. Where the focus is more on explaining what you think and why. Like these websites: Estimation 180 Would You Rather? Math Arguments 180 Oh, those look great! The Would You Rather seems perfect for him. I was thinking about how we do these types of things somewhat often, but his twin tends to really dominate the discussion so much. Sometimes I have to strong arm him to be quiet and let BalletBoy try to figure it all out and do his own reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyhwkmama Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Have you looked into Murderous Maths? They are a little hard to get, but engaging. I just started the first book with my 5th grade boy. scroll down to see math in each book... http://www.murderousmaths.co.uk/homeed.htm#content Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I really like the idea of talking through reasoning in a fun way and I am planning to check out those links myself. I do that with my younger kids often but not with the older ones - maybe they are forever my guinea pigs, subject to my mistakes. Much of what you have written reminds me of one of my boys, one who I thought Jacobs was going to be just perfect for, but it's not hard enough (I guess? too-something - can't put my finger on it - so disappointed), so we are back to going super slowly with aops alg. He does best if we are alone and talking through stuff on the white board together. He needs the big picture so much but, if left to his own devices (slacker like me), he would work using only those two tiny brain cells in the back corner - unfortunately he needs his whole brain engaged or he forgets it all. (the old MM worked well for him but I think the later levels get a tad tedious. As an aside, that was one thing that we all liked about aops prealg, if we found ourselves in a tedious calculation we were likely doing it wrong LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerforest Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 My DD is their age and sounds like she has aspects of both of them. I won't bore you with the long-winded explanation of our path, but here's what we're doing now: - Finishing up BA 4C. We should finish the fractions chapter this week. We have flown through this one because it's been review so far. - Giving her about 8 practice problems a day. I bought a couple of pre-algebra workbooks, and although she despises workbooks, I handwrite them in her math notebook and she's willing to do them if they're in my handwriting. I use these to keep her skills fresh. They're a touch more complicated than she's done, but all completely at her competency level. 8 a day is 40 practice problems a week, and she barely notices! - Going through parts of the Danica McKellar books we hadn't done yet. I wish there were something comparable that was less stereotypically "girly" but DD loves these. - Pulling word problems from everywhere I can think of: usual Zacarro but also things like Camp Fractions from Prufrock, Circus Math (which is 4th grade math but a circus theme for my circus girl so it's fabulously fun review), Math for Real Kids, Amusement Park Math. Basically, I find math that aligns with her interests anywhere I can find it. She has been weak and frustrated with word problems but we're turning the corner finally, and I think it's because I've tried hard to find high interest things even if no one else had ever used it or recommended it. - Finished Singapore 5A/5B. I didn't really want to bother with MiF again even though she liked it. I just wanted something inexpensive and easy to find. She used to hate it, but it was fine. She survived. - Nearly finished with Reflex Math, and we started it at her request. She was frustrated by her lack of immediate recall so after everything else we tried failed, I showed her a bunch of computer-based options, and she chose it and loved it. But, I gotta say, she has like 4 fact families left--two in the 8s and two in the 9s and she still just has such a mental block. But, her immediate recall has given her such a boost because even though she had all the mental math tips for figuring it out, but it made math take forever. She's probably ready for pre-algebra in terms of her skills, but not with her frustration level. She gets frustrated with herself when she makes basic computational errors. She gets frustrated if she can't see where the word problem is heading right away. So, I'm just going to spend Jan-June doing more living math and focusing on more puzzles, games, and word problems focused around her interests. I just found these on Amazon: The Geometry of Ballet: Could be a total fail and doesn't give any info but I've taken chances like this and have been ridiculously surprised: http://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Ballet-M-Schottenbauer-ebook/dp/B00K0SF9SU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417651831&sr=8-1&keywords=ballet+math (they have a workbook too) These web sites: http://balletmath.blogspot.mx http://bigthink.com/the-voice-of-big-think/the-similarities-between-ballet-and-math https://prezi.com/y01clsdow635/math-and-ballet/ http://www.davetriesballet.com/2011/03/05/p-and-p-mathematical-beauty/ And then I stopped looking--there are tons! So, that's my best advice. Find math that deals with things that interest him. That's what's done it for us here--so it's like personalized living math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 OMG! Ballet MATH! :w00t: How did I never think of THAT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Have you looked into Murderous Maths? They are a little hard to get, but engaging. I just started the first book with my 5th grade boy. scroll down to see math in each book... http://www.murderousmaths.co.uk/homeed.htm#content We really love Murderous Maths... we're reading the Secret Codes one right now. We've done all of Arithmatricks, Savage Shapes, and Desperate Measures. I am planning on the fractions one and then Do You Feel Lucky next... but this is one of those things. BalletBoy likes the Murderous Maths books, but when they get to really complex stuff - which, wow, some of it is really complex stuff sometimes! - then he tends to zone out and let his twin figure it all out. Sigh. Maybe THAT'S the thing I need to work on most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Have you looked into Murderous Maths? They are a little hard to get, but engaging. I just started the first book with my 5th grade boy. scroll down to see math in each book... http://www.murderousmaths.co.uk/homeed.htm#content The new editions of murderous maths are available on kindle. If you have a kindle or kindle ap you could get him a sample. OK you have done most of them but I will leave my post for others. I think the new ones may be a slightly easier reading level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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