Is this really dyscalculia or is my mom radar broken?

[Student Mommie]

Hello!

 

I think my DS7 is dyscalculic.  He always had a weak number sense, couldn't "see" the difference between quantity three and four, etc.  Yet, he can figure out a lot.  Like I tested him at this math tutoring franchise, and they said he was at a second grade level.  (No, he can't do double digit addition, i don't know what kind of low standards they have... I think it's because they were testing geometry and all sorts of random topics.)  

 

But if I say "write down number 14" he won't be able to do it.  If I say "What number comes after 9?" he sometimes has NO idea.  Certainly continuing counting from a random number is challenging for him.  The other day he was trying to figure out the price of something.  The tag said "$12".  He said, "Twenty dollars?"  He does NOT get place value.  At all!  Well, he might for a day, now and then, after tons of practice.  But it never persists.  And he just has no sense of numbers, he cannot add them and just adding +1 took forever for me to teach him with tons of practice worksheets because he didn't get the concept of what number comes next.  He can never remember number bonds.

 

Is this necessarily dyscalculia?  Or could it just be dyslexia stuff (like sequencing weakness) interfering with a normal math person?

 

Because honestly, everyone else who works with him says he is GOOD at math!!  The math franchise... and his math teacher from last year.  She didn't care if he couldn't write down a number like 12 because he can do other mathy things well.  In fact she thought he was GOOD at place value, but that's because he came into this year with the "knowledge" of the tens place, but after another year of math and with an actual school teacher prodding him along, he still doesn't really get it at all.  And he shocked her at one point by doing some crazy advanced (for kindergarten, that is) visual representation to solve a problem when no one else could and nobody ever taught him or exposed him to the idea.

 

Do I just have super high standards that are beyond what is normal for this age?  I really don't KNOW what is normal or what is "ok" to be weak in.  I do see that his little sister can EASILY tell me what number comes after 9 or whatever, without any hesitation, and she is totally average.

 

So I just tried the Ronit Bird sample lesson she has up for her basic stuff in her ebook.  It was finding smaller numbers in dice forms.  He was bored out of his mind because it was too easy for him.  (We did do a lot of dice games last year.  He is totally familiar with all dice number patterns at this point.)  My undrestanding is that Ronit Bird's stuff for the early grades is a whole lot of dice.

 

Should I skip Ronit Bird?

 

Is Dynamo Math appropriate for this?

 

Should I skip that, too, and just hit the worksheets?  

 

Is my mommy radar wrong about dyscalculia?  I hope so, so i can move on from this dyscalculia idea, because I'm tired of being the only one paranoid about stuff when all the professionals surrounding me say "it's normal!"  On the other hand, they were wrong about nor realizing he had dyslexia :/

[mysticmomma]

Is he 7 in k?

[Student Mommie]

He is now 7 going into grade 1, turning 8 towards the end.  Yes, on the older side.  I was trying to buy him time-- i did not know that time does not cure his learning/attention conditions :)  

 

[Heathermomster]

My DS was diagnosed with dyscalculia by a NP. DS had just turned 8 yo and the diagnosis was a complete shock to us because he knew his subtraction and addition facts to 20 and could actually do all the things that your DS cannot. I can only recommend about three things for you to do.

 

1. Seriously consider getting your DS tested by a NP.

2. Read the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.

3. Use the RB books.

 

My DS can subitize too. We used the RB books that go beyond dice games. In some students, dyscalculia only affects arithmetic so that they are able to grasp difficult concepts very quickly. My son is this way. He learned his multiplication facts via algebraic properties. Concepts that are easy to a regular student trip him up more than the typically hard stuff.

 

Is my mommy radar wrong about dyscalculia? I hope so, so i can move on from this dyscalculia idea, because I'm tired of being the only one paranoid about stuff

when all the professionals surrounding me say "it's normal!" On the other hand, they were wrong about nor realizing he had dyslexia :/

 

 

I don't know what the above means. What professionals are you referring too? Teachers?

 

It is possible that your DS has multiple SNs. I suggest you get him tested by an eminently qualified NP so that you know what you are dealing with.

 

ETA: I called a local "math franchise" after DS was diagnosed and spoke with the owner and one tutor. Both were former grammar staged classroom teachers that exited the public school system. Neither had extra training for dealing with maths disabled children and neither had heard of something as basic as Cuisenaire rods. The emphasis seemed to be entirely on teaching algorithms with no emphasis on conceptual math understanding. My son's classroom teachers were the same. I don't place much stock in their opinions. Your DS may be bright but what you are describing is not normal.

[PeterPan]

Your confusion comes because you think dyscalculia = bad at math.  I know someone who just ACED the math portion of the SAT who also has dyscalculia.  And that label has been confirmed multiple times by different psychs.  Dyscalculia but good at math, absolutely. 

 

What you're seeing is the type of stuff I'm seeing in my ds.  You posted some time ago and are just now back.  Are you pursuing evals?  It's time.  Evals are what will sort this out for you.  

 

The Ronit Bird ebooks are basically expansions of two chapters out of her larger, $50 printed books.  The dot patterns book is followed by the c-rods book.  If he seems beyond both of those, then get the printed books.  You can see the table of contents for them on amazon I think.  

 

Btw, I have no guarantee what I'm seeing *is* dyscalculia.  What I describe to my friend whose dc has that label seems pretty similar, but it is possible to miss what's going on.  Also assuming the label for yourself doesn't really tell you what ELSE is going on, how his brain is working, and where you can intervene.  It's VITAL to get evals in a situation like this.  A good neuropsych is going to dig in, test, and find things you can actually work on and intervene on.  It's going to go way beyond the label.

[geodob]

Hi, you wrote: "He always had a weak number sense, couldn't "see" the difference between quantity three and four, etc."

Where this is the main indicator of Dyscalculia.

Though with Dyscalculia, it's not a difficulty with 'seeing' the difference between 3 and 4 ?

 

Rather it is a difficulty with Spatial thinking?

What Spatial thinking does, is to connect 2,3 or 4 things together, and concieve of them as different sized groups.

A child then learns the names and symbols for these different sized groups.

But if a child cant form these different sized groups with spatial thinking?

Then they don't concieve of 2 as a group?

Rather, 2 becomes the name of the object next to the object called 1.

So that the idea of 2 as group?

Has no more meaning than A plus A equal B ?

Where A and B don't represent quantities?

Perhaps you could try counting 4 objects in front of you.  But instead using 1,2,3,4 ?

Use A,B,C,D.

 

Then I might ask you: 'What is the difference between quantity C and D ?

Where you wouldn't concieve of C and D as quantities?

Along with the idea that A+C= D ?

 

So that what needs to looked at, is whether he can use spatial thinking to automatically form 2 or 3 or 4 objects as groups?

 

[LaughingCat]

I think you need to clarify if he is having trouble with 3 and 4 as things - or just with reading the numbers 3 and 4.   And since you did all that dice work you probably need to do it with something other than dice.  Maybe an abacus?

 

I do not believe my DD has Dyscalculia as geodub describes ( "a child cant form these different sized groups with spatial thinking")   but still she struggles with skip counting, math facts etc.  At 7 she definitely had trouble with reading numbers (would read 12 as 21 for example - or even guess based on one of the numbers as it sounds like your DS did). 

 

The later activities (in a book I got through ILL --Overcoming Difficulties with Number: Supporti… I think based on TOC)  had lots of stuff like calculating via bridging/area .   The way I understand 'bridging' is the idea of complements, making 10's to make calculations easier (ala Singapore) - and this is a skill I don't feel like DD really has/uses.  OTH  Professor Pig's Magic Math is a free program by Ellen McHenry that attempts to teach complements - I did that with DD last year and DD didnt' struggle with that program at all even though I don't feel like she uses complements when calculating. 

 

Notes:

= I found Ronit Bird hard to follow - definitely felt like I needed more hand-holding.  

-  on Amazon by going to the TOC I was able to jump straight to the bridging and area descriptions and read the whole thing in the book I linked

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Laughing Cat, my ds is very much like what geodob is describing.  We're slowly getting some of that connect between the name of a number and the quantity using Ronit Bird.  I think the ebooks are probably much more detailed and easy to implement than the main (more comprehensive) print books.  I wish she had ebooks for ALL the topics, wow.  I LOVE the ebooks.  They're a little unusual in that they're more explaining to the parent and then assuming you'll communicate it to your dc rather than giving scripts.  

 

I have no clue why I'm saying that, except I just wanted to say geodob is not crazy.  From what I've heard backchannel, he's very active on another dyscalculia forum.  I'm just saying my boy does what he's describing, and it's really, really weird.  It's like this fundamental disconnect.  It's more than just not reading.  Not reading would make sense when you consider we've also been talking dyslexia.  But it's one step further, it's like you could have drawn a picture of a chicken there or called the piles Ralph and Henry.  It's like the word name doesn't integrate and get used properly.  Geodob probably has a better explanation.  I'm just saying you know me.  If it was as simple as make sure the kid can read the number 9, I'd get out a stupid flashcard and flash it a bunch.  It was more this fundamental what is wrong with my kid because he really doesn't GET this, not in any way.  Supposedly gifted and does NOT get it.  And it's not a reading thing.  

 

Oh, now that he is starting to get numbers (thanks to the RB dot patterns ebook) he's doing weird things.  He's been exploring concepts on his own and he even has done bits of HOE with me.  I just use mancala beads instead of the numbers.  I'm not saying we've gotten real far, because he doesn't have an extreme tolerance.  I'm just saying I've opened the packet, pulled out the pieces and used beads instead of numbers and the kid could do the problems in the work pages.  But he couldn't tell me how many fingers he had a month earlier.   :svengo: 

 

 PS.  McDonald's has 49 cent cones.  I'm calling it math.  We do math 3 times a week at McDonalds.   :lol:

[LaughingCat]

Just wanted to say - I didn't mean to imply I didn't agree with geodub! I :001_wub: geodub.  I just meant I think it is possible to have a child that struggles with reading numbers and memorizing facts (and even utilizing bridging)... i.e. many of the same signs as OP states for her child and have it not be dyscalculia - that true dyscalculia would be more like what geodub describes -  doesn't actually understand the groupings or the idea of bridging/complements - not just doesn't apply it.    I think in my DD's case -these apparently math related 'signs' are just more symptoms of the same quirky brain that can't always read letters in the right order and can't always get what she meant to say out of her mouth correctly. 

 

That's not to say OP's DS doesn't have dyscalculia either - just that I think she needs to come at it from the angle of trying to pull apart whether he understands 'groupings'(dot patters/abacus) and 'regroupings' ( bridging) or whether it is something else.

[PeterPan]

And you know that's why you (I mean the op) want evals.  I'm letting the psych sort that out, whew!   :)

[Storygirl]

Keep in mind that I know nothing about dyscalculia (yet -- I need to learn a bunch pretty quickly!), but I have these two things to add to what others have written:

 

1) Just like heathermomster's son, my son was diagnosed with dyscalculia and a math LD by the NP, and it came as a total shock, because he has not had trouble with math so far and is doing well on grade level. They said his math difficulties would show up more in higher levels -- algebra and up. So I think the lesson here is that dyscalculia can appear differently in different children, and only an expert can tell you for sure.

 

2) Dyslexia does often go hand in hand with math problems. It could be dyslexia that is causing the math difficulties. Again, only an expert evaluation will tell you for sure.

 

I think you'll be glad to have the evaluations after you do them. It's a good idea to pursue it.

[Heathermomster]

I've read where dyscalculia has subtypes. If that is indeed the case, than our kids may not look all the same. Many individuals with dyscalculia struggle with reading an analog watch, cannot read a map, have a terrible time with money, and get lost easily. Some individuals don't drive.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that DS has maths disability. Most people that meet him are In disbelief, but anyone who has taught him or administered his SAT-10 test witness first hand his struggles. He prefers his analog watch, loves maps, and has won every grade level geography bee that he has ever entered (and he didn't study, BTW). He also subitiizes dot patterns. Dyspraxia/motor planning /sensory motor issues run in my DH's family, and my dad had a terrible time in school. Anyhoo..

 

Fractions and multiplication facts tend to separate out the sheep and the goats when it comes to those who can subitize the smaller numbers.

 

I can see where RB would be confusing. I have read a handful of books about math and combine my math knowledge with what RB and others have written. For DS, I quickly applied what RB wrote and adjusted it to my son's situation. If there was an activity that DS did not like, I searched for alternate activities online and used them instead. Not all RB activities are necessary for every student and the student's math hiccups are very evident once you dig in. I made RB stuff work for DS. I am comfortable with that so I don't think about it much. My math background also informs me about what math concept should be emphasized.

[PeterPan]

Heather, that's fascinating with the idea of subtypes.  Since your ds was in a school doing Wilson and whatnot, maybe they were also using math curriculum aimed at catching some of this?  

 

I have no clue why my ds is the way he is.  I know he's on-par with another dc I know of who was doing the things my ds does and she later got a dyscalculia label.  It has made me pretty comfortable just embracing it and working forward, because for that child allowing that foundation of understanding to build worked out really well.

[Heathermomster]

Heather, that's fascinating with the idea of subtypes. Since your ds was in a school doing Wilson and whatnot, maybe they were also using math curriculum aimed at catching some of this?

 

I have no clue why my ds is the way he is. I know he's on-par with another dc I know of who was doing the things my ds does and she later got a dyscalculia label. It has made me pretty comfortable just embracing it and working forward, because for that child allowing that foundation of understanding to build worked out really well.

 

I think your DS has a maths disability. Look at it this way.  Suppose your DS doesn't have dyscalculia.  He still has to learn and you have to teach in a way that works. I think you are doing a terrific job. I used some of the RB activities with DD and she has only benefitted.

 

No, the school was clueless. It was only when I pulled DS to teach typing in 5th grade that I realized all math had to stop for me to deal directly with his math deficits. I had to bite the bullet and purchase those expensive books. The costs for RB and Sousa books bother me.

 

While DS was enrolled, I heard a lot of "I'm not trained in THAT area" kind of talk. It is still a sore spot for me. I wasn't trained in THAT area either but I picked up books, read them, and applied the methods. The school used Wilson tutors and were only willing to accommodate the student minimally in the classroom. Classroom accommodations were looked down upon as coddling and weakness, and who cares whether accommodations are good enough for the College Board or MIT?  The classroom teachers themselves had very little understanding of dyslexia and no understanding of any other disabilities. Stepping down from my podium now.

 

LaughingCat, I neglected to mention this earlier. The link you provided to the pig math is awesome.

[PeterPan]

Well rats, I didn't go look at the pig math yet!  Thanks for your comment on the math disability.  This is horrible, but if it's not, then he's just really dumb or really developmentally delayed.  Dumb is not the right word.  I'm just saying those two things are what we've thought for the last couple years, that he just wasn't capable, was delayed, blah blah.  Then you get these verbal scores from the SLP and they're OFF THE CHARTS, like totally blowing the ceiling on the test.  That doesn't fit with those scenarios.  

 

I know, I feel like those teachers.  I wasn't trained in that area, not my area, please just go away and get back to normal, lol.  However I'm SO tired of the "it's all your fault, you read into things/coddle/whatever" routine, and I'm so tired of the "he'll outgrow it" routine.  Oh, and the best one?  The "you wouldn't believe what he did with me using math SO HE CAN'T POSSIBLY HAVE A MATH DISABILITY" routine.  Oh yeah.  Like TOTALLY IGNORE that I've sat there for months saying this is a 3, show me three with dots, this is a 5, could we make it more ways, do you see the 2 dots inside the 5 dots, etc. Just IGNORE everything I've done and act like what you saw just HAPPENED on its own!!!!!!!!!!!!!  No, he's doing those things because I TAUGHT him!!!!!!!!!!!!  And sure, yeah right now you probably actually could put him in a typical K5 curriculum and have him do math a more typical way (little pictures of apples and single digits) and he could do it and sorta look normal.  But that's ONLY because I've spent all this time remediating it.  He'd have NO foundation to go forward, and then the next year he'd go back to blank looks.  No foundation.  I'm building the foundation and I know it, and it makes me angry that some people around me (who shall remain nameless) act like it's all in my head, he'll outgrow it, it will go away.  

 

Well whatever, I'm on a rant.  Those conflicting opinions kill me.  

[PeterPan]

I think you need to clarify if he is having trouble with 3 and 4 as things - or just with reading the numbers 3 and 4.   And since you did all that dice work you probably need to do it with something other than dice.  Maybe an abacus?

 

I do not believe my DD has Dyscalculia as geodub describes ( "a child cant form these different sized groups with spatial thinking")   but still she struggles with skip counting, math facts etc.  At 7 she definitely had trouble with reading numbers (would read 12 as 21 for example - or even guess based on one of the numbers as it sounds like your DS did). 

 

The later activities (in a book I got through ILL --Overcoming Difficulties with Number: Supporti… I think based on TOC)  had lots of stuff like calculating via bridging/area .   The way I understand 'bridging' is the idea of complements, making 10's to make calculations easier (ala Singapore) - and this is a skill I don't feel like DD really has/uses.  OTH  Professor Pig's Magic Math is a free program by Ellen McHenry that attempts to teach complements - I did that with DD last year and DD didnt' struggle with that program at all even though I don't feel like she uses complements when calculating. 

 

Notes:

= I found Ronit Bird hard to follow - definitely felt like I needed more hand-holding.  

-  on Amazon by going to the TOC I was able to jump straight to the bridging and area descriptions and read the whole thing in the book I linked

I just went and looked at the Pig Math.  That's ADORABLE!!  Something like that would be really good if the dc's issue is needing more repetition in a lot of ways to get them to nail.  My dd was that, and I definitely think it's their brain structure and just how many repetitions they need to get stuff automatic.  (a LOT more than you'd think necessary)