The Glass Castle, unconditional love, and poverty. Would love to discuss.

[shawthorne44]

There are two time periods in which I can "read".  In bed before sleep, and listening to the audio CD in the car when alone.  I have access to both versions and I decided that this wasn't the last thoughts in my head when I went to sleep.  This morning I was actually so shocked by something I read that I briefly turned the steering wheel while driving.  

 

Mom comes back from the teacher training summer session and declares, "I need to stop living for other people, and start to live for myself."  

 

I've listened to a LOT of audiobooks.  I started back when they only available on cassette and the unabridged were hard to find.  I have never before had the book effect my driving.  

 

I am paying close attention to try to figure out what it was that got the kids out of poverty.  I wonder if part of it is that they realized it was a choice their parents made.  They keep asking, "Where did the money go?"  Since their parents made a choice to live in poverty, the kids could make a choice to NOT live in poverty.  

 

That summer camp Laurie went to seemed helpful.  The idea that all she had to do was leave Welch and people treated her like a normal person.  

 

[wingedradical]

You got me interested! I just bought the book on my audible.com account!

[creekland]

 The idea that all she had to do was leave Welch and people treated her like a normal person.  

 

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've told kids that if they get to go away to college (many high academic poor kids can get decent financing), then they can re-start their lives, being known as who they want to be known as rather than who everyone in the area sees them as.  It can still be tough for them to adjust though.  So many experiences we take for granted are simply unfamiliar to them (like throwing food away or complaining about dining halls and ordering pizza).  Sometimes they feel "alone" elsewhere.  It's tough to describe.

[MinivanMom]

There are two time periods in which I can "read".  In bed before sleep, and listening to the audio CD in the car when alone.  I have access to both versions and I decided that this wasn't the last thoughts in my head when I went to sleep.  This morning I was actually so shocked by something I read that I briefly turned the steering wheel while driving.  

 

Mom comes back from the teacher training summer session and declares, "I need to stop living for other people, and start to live for myself."  

 

I've listened to a LOT of audiobooks.  I started back when they only available on cassette and the unabridged were hard to find.  I have never before had the book effect my driving.  

 

I am paying close attention to try to figure out what it was that got the kids out of poverty.  I wonder if part of it is that they realized it was a choice their parents made.  They keep asking, "Where did the money go?"  Since their parents made a choice to live in poverty, the kids could make a choice to NOT live in poverty.  

 

That summer camp Laurie went to seemed helpful.  The idea that all she had to do was leave Welch and people treated her like a normal person.  

 

Yep. The three weeks I spent at CTY summer camp changed the course of my life.

[MinivanMom]

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've told kids that if they get to go away to college (many high academic poor kids can get decent financing), then they can re-start their lives, being known as who they want to be known as rather than who everyone in the area sees them as.  It can still be tough for them to adjust though.  So many experiences we take for granted are simply unfamiliar to them (like throwing food away or complaining about dining halls and ordering pizza).  Sometimes they feel "alone" elsewhere.  It's tough to describe.

 

Unfortunately, this can be true also. I had a tough adjustment to college. I remember September and October as being particularly hard. I was surrounded by kids who grew up in privilege and I felt like an imposter. I did have the good sense to live in an Honors dorm, though, which helped. Most of the girls living around me were very studious and serious about their education, so I could relate to them on that level. Eventually, I found friends who also came from more challenging backgrounds and were putting themselves through school. It took time and effort, and I understand why many kids from disadvantaged backgrounds wind up dropping out of college. The social gap can be huge.

[Caroline]

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've told kids that if they get to go away to college (many high academic poor kids can get decent financing), then they can re-start their lives, being known as who they want to be known as rather than who everyone in the area sees them as. It can still be tough for them to adjust though. So many experiences we take for granted are simply unfamiliar to them (like throwing food away or complaining about dining halls and ordering pizza). Sometimes they feel "alone" elsewhere. It's tough to describe.

I have a former student who just finished his first year at Duke. When he came home for Christmas, he asked me if he could meet my son. I arranged the meeting, but asked why. He said he wanted to talk to someone else who went away to a tough college. All of his friends from home who went to college, lived at home and went to the local state u. Not exactly the same as going to Duke. And they hadn't really moved on. I think, for him, it was like Heather in Malaysia described coming home. No one really wanted to know the new him. They wanted him to turn back into the old him. Does that make any sense?

 

The first semester was tough for him. He was clearly going against the grain for his neighborhood and his family wasn't really on board. He was different from his fellow students. But he made it. Lots of emails and texts and phone calls to his teachers back home. We sent him care packages. My DH had a meeting in Cary, and took him and a couple of friends out to dinner one evening.

 

He decided not to come home for the summer, and instead, is working in a lab on campus. It's been good for him.

[Catherine]

Unfortunately, this can be true also. I had a tough adjustment to college. I remember September and October as being particularly hard. I was surrounded by kids who grew up in privilege and I felt like an imposter. I did have the good sense to live in an Honors dorm, though, which helped. Most of the girls living around me were very studious and serious about their education, so I could relate to them on that level. Eventually, I found friends who also came from more challenging backgrounds and were putting themselves through school. It took time and effort, and I understand why many kids from disadvantaged backgrounds wind up dropping out of college. The social gap can be huge.

Yes, huge.

 

I've never heard the term "social gap" but it fits perfectly. I experienced this in college. I didn't enjoy my college years much, really, because of the chronic stress-about whether I'd get into medical school, about keeping my grades up, and biggest of all, about whether I'd figure out the $$ each year to stay there. I did not fit in at my LAC-not at all. Eventually, junior year, I found friends, and I had many more superficial friendships. Jeannette's story of her father coming up with the $950 she needed to stay at Barnard for the last year was bittersweet for me to read. My dear, sweet parents did many things for me, but they made zero effort to help me get through school. I know they didn't have much...but it felt like they didn't try, like they didn't really want me to go. It was painful. I had help from my extended family-my grandfather gave me his old Pinto, my uncle rebuilt another car's engine for me. They were so good to me. But college is very expensive.

[SarahW]

I got this from the library the other day because of this thread - a few thoughts.

 

The father was probably Gifted himself. The story about his poem and teacher in high school speaks volumes. Never having that recognized probably led to his general dissatisfaction with life. He probably also had EF, 2E, or likewise going on. Or maybe just mental problems from being molested.

 

For the kids, being put in gifted classes in Az. was probably a hugely positive event in their lives. The youngest never had that.

 

As for the mother, she was disabled by her love-hate relationship with her mother's wealth. If she had married a man who made high-end custom furniture in a workshop out in the country somewhere, she would have had a very "successful" life, I think. Throughout most of the book I think she suffered from severe depression.

 

How the kids "escaped" I think had a lot to do with their parents, as defective as they were. Despite the father's useless "research" and irresponsibility, he clearly knew a lot about many subjects and spent time talking about them, and he "unschooled" the kids in a number of advanced subjects. The mother's upper-class roots caused the kids to be exposed to great literature and art and the other facets of "core knowledge." These two things are absolutely key. The youngest, who was never home, was better off in the short term, but worse off in the long term to miss out on those things. 

 

Through the book I made comparisons between their lives and my own. Though my parents were far more responsible (I grew up in a house that my dad had built mostly on his own, it was a sturdy little ranch, not made of glass) they did not bring the mental riches that her parents did. They did not know how to expand upon my interests, they made negative comments about "becoming prideful" from knowing too much, and our religious situation (following Gothard) made me too afraid to go out into "the world" to expand my own horizons. So even though their lives were terrible for most of their childhood, there were times I was very jealous of them.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

How the kids "escaped" I think had a lot to do with their parents, as defective as they were. Despite the father's useless "research" and irresponsibility, he clearly knew a lot about many subjects and spent time talking about them, and he "unschooled" the kids in a number of advanced subjects. The mother's upper-class roots caused the kids to be exposed to great literature and art and the other facets of "core knowledge." These two things are absolutely key. The youngest, who was never home, was better off in the short term, but worse off in the long term to miss out on those things. 

 

*snip*

 

That is profound.

[Student Mommie]

This topic makes me a bit sad.

 

I grew up in poverty.  I wish I could say I were a better woman, but I was resentful as a child-- I did suppress my resentment to get on in life, but the questions were simmering underneath.  I did not understand why my dad was so smart yet would not keep a job, would not get along with a boss, not even for the sake of his family.  This hurt me deeply, and stressed my out that there was no security, that i could not count on adults.  unfortunately they did not hide their worries or reassure me that we always had each other and stuff that wise parents say, so i just festered in worry.  I hated that my parents had such pride.  They were too proud to accept food handouts.  So I got stuck eating this pasta soup with frozen veggies.  Every.single.day.  I did not dig food out of trash cans but i definitely begged food off my friends-- they gave me their lunch leftovers.  I used to fantasize that a nonprofit would deliver food to my door.  My dad was too proud to take a job that was beneath his level.  My mom was too proud to admit to her friends how badly we struggled, so she squeezed in work at home jobs in secret.  I had unfashionable clothes that often didn't fit me, and the idea that i could ask for better never occurred to me, it was like i viewed myself in a different class of people who simply did not get good things-- i did not connect it to the idea that "money is tight, that's all".  I never had an extracurricular activity.  The reason why this was bad was because my parents did not explain, they did not know how to mentor me.  i just made the decision when i was a little kid that i did not deserve good things, that fun was for others not me.  Then when I was a teenager, the burden shifted to me.  I had to work to support the family.  I paid for my parents to be able to put on a show to their friends that we were doing ok.  They put pressure on me that we would lose our home if i didnt work.  Yah, that made me resentful, but only when i reached adulthood and realized this was not normal.  when i was younger i put my mental energy into worrying and making money and turning over every last penny to the bills.  it never occurred to me to spend any money on myself, and i skipped all school events that cost money.  still, i feel like if they presented it in a positive, cheerful, "let's all pitch in" way, it would not have had such a negative impact on me because it's not THAT big a deal-- the problem is that all this stuff was drenched in anxiety and burden and obligation and expectation of full self sacrifice and weird "for show" issues.  

 

Now I realize that my dad has some brain differences, something like Aspergers, the poor guy gets stuck in inflexible rigid thinking and forgets that people are more important than ideas, and he cannot drop a grudge.  And my mom is just a nervous weak depressed person, never recovered from her own traumas, just doing the best she can stuck with a husband who failed to support her family.  So i no longer feel strong resentment.  i have not yet explicitly worked on forgiveness for this stuff, cuz ive been too busy processing childhood abuse.  

 

i did not turn out well in a lot of ways to be honest, but now i am changing that and learning to take radical responsibility.  no more victim mentality for me, and i am learning to turn to god to learn how to live in peace and love.  i need to give my children a good childhood, i need to be a good example to them of someone who is resilient etc.  

 

i feel lost sometimes though, i don't know how to mentor them, i don't know the patterns of a good family, i don't know those little lectures and catch phrases that good parents do.  i try to read lots of parenting books but application is confusing.  I don't have the natural mentorship thing at all, i really really REALLY wish i could just tag along with a functional family and quietly observe and learn.

 

[creekland]

Now I realize that my dad has some brain differences, something like Aspergers, the poor guy gets stuck in inflexible rigid thinking and forgets that people are more important than ideas, and he cannot drop a grudge.  And my mom is just a nervous weak depressed person, never recovered from her own traumas, just doing the best she can stuck with a husband who failed to support her family.  So i no longer feel strong resentment.  i have not yet explicitly worked on forgiveness for this stuff, cuz ive been too busy processing childhood abuse.  

 

i did not turn out well in a lot of ways to be honest, but now i am changing that and learning to take radical responsibility.  no more victim mentality for me, and i am learning to turn to god to learn how to live in peace and love.  i need to give my children a good childhood, i need to be a good example to them of someone who is resilient etc.  

 

i feel lost sometimes though, i don't know how to mentor them, i don't know the patterns of a good family, i don't know those little lectures and catch phrases that good parents do.  i try to read lots of parenting books but application is confusing.  I don't have the natural mentorship thing at all, i really really REALLY wish i could just tag along with a functional family and quietly observe and learn.

 

I think you turned out pretty well considering the circumstances.  ;)

 

And the only "perfect parents" are on TV or in the movies.  The rest of us merely do our best with those little lectures and catch phrases - often thinking of them after the opportune time actually.

 

Make sure your kids are fed and clothed. 

 

Make sure they know the reasons for why you choose what you do whether soccer lessons (or not) or stretching the food budget (or anything similar).

 

Make sure you give them hugs and tell them you love them and appreciate them.

 

Make sure you give them "real" chores that help the family get through life.

 

Beyond that?  Follow your instinct and hope you make the right decisions - pretty much like the rest of us.

 

For your background :hurray: for making it and :grouphug:  for having to.

 

ps  My attitude/life changed a TON after I read about my dad in my Abnormal Psych class in college.  There were some passages that I swear were using him as an example.

 

[Mukmuk]

 

... no more victim mentality for me, and i am learning to turn to god to learn how to live in peace and love.  i need to give my children a good childhood, i need to be a good example to them of someone who is resilient etc.  

 

i feel lost sometimes though, i don't know how to mentor them, i don't know the patterns of a good family, i don't know those little lectures and catch phrases that good parents do.  i try to read lots of parenting books but application is confusing.  I don't have the natural mentorship thing at all, i really really REALLY wish i could just tag along with a functional family and quietly observe and learn.

 

nm

[creekland]

Creekland, one of your earlier comments about feeling different in college is so right. I can do the same things, but I'm not "one of them". I'll never be. I was and still am isolated, although I've come to accept it and am at peace. Goodness knows why I feel this way. I know full well I was not responsible for my situation. But it is a feeling of shame that is impossible to shake off. Maybe I just want to disassociate, so I don't tell anyone. 

 

Thank goodness for DH and DS!

 

My intro to "the other side" came when we went to FL for a year and I was enrolled in a fancy private school for 10th grade (100% on scholarship).  I had classmates who spoke 4 languages and who had traveled all over the world.  My friends were interested in "the new kid" and we got talking about my parents.  When I told them my dad made 18K a year (fairly respectable in that day), one gasped and said that they had a painting in their living room that cost more than that.

 

The very first day - when kids were sharing what had happened over the summer - one young lady related that her sister had gotten married - on a chartered large cruise ship to England - and helicoptered to their honeymoon on a private island while the rest of the guests went home on chartered airplanes.

 

It's a whole different league.

 

BUT, the kids (at least my friends) were awesome.  They literally paid for pretty much everything for me when we did group activities or went out to eat for lunch (allowed at this school).  They were just as curious about my background as I was of theirs.  Academically we were peers, so that helped.  I learned so much that year - far more than just academics - all while wearing thrift shop clothing to school (rather humbling, but the only uniforms we had were for gym class, so...)

 

And my own life is now a combo of down to earth values (thrift, etc) and some of the "high life" (love to travel - albeit - on a much more restricted budget than "high life.")  I'll never get to go to as many places as many of those kids had been by 10th grade, but such is life.

 

My self-esteem/self-confidence is totally within myself.  Shame is not there, but if you come to my house, beware that we don't spend much money on it!   ;)

 

I think I really need to be thankful for that experience as it did give me a bit of an insight to actual people - not just stereotypes.  It showed me that humans really are "the same" in our basic traits/thoughts.  Hopefully it did the same for them too.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

Creekland, one of your earlier comments about feeling different in college is so right. I can do the same things, but I'm not "one of them". I'll never be. I was and still am isolated, although I've come to accept it and am at peace. *snip*

 

This.

 

I felt very isolated for years, but I had to learn to let that go. I can either go around feeling like I don't fit in with either the upper or lower class crowds . . . or . . . I can be grateful that I have things in common with both crowds. I may not always fit in within my immediate community, but I've found that I can serve people that others just can't connect with since I have the background to understand them.

 

I've also learned to share more about myself in real life, and I think that helps a lot. The majority of the people in my community are from privileged backgrounds, but it helps for them to know that I'm not. I was never "one of them", but now they know I come from a different background versus thinking I'm snotty or "hard to get to know". It also prevents those comments about the "poor", the "unemployed", or "children like that". If I put my background out there, people that have a problem with my background choose to fade out of my life and the rest are more careful with their words. It also has the added benefit of helping me find people who are like me. I'm not so arrogant as to think I'm the only one in my affluent community who overcame humble roots. They're out there and if I share enough about myself, they reach out to me. I've found some of my closest friends that way.

[MinivanMom]

I was looking at some books for oldest dd's literature for the fall on Amazon yesterday. You know how Amazon will do that little pop-up where it says, "Customers who bought this item also bought . . ." and then it shows you related books? I always know when a book is popular with classical homeschoolers, because I'll get tons of homeschooling books and texts popping up along with it.

 

Well, yesterday, when it popped up, there was "The Glass Castle" in among a bunch of homeschooling texts. I guess we've started a book trend. If Amazon says it, it is true.

[creekland]

I was looking at some books for oldest dd's literature for the fall on Amazon yesterday. You know how Amazon will do that little pop-up where it says, "Customers who bought this item also bought . . ." and then it shows you related books? I always know when a book is popular with classical homeschoolers, because I'll get tons of homeschooling books and texts popping up along with it.

 

Well, yesterday, when it popped up, there was "The Glass Castle" in among a bunch of homeschooling texts. I guess we've started a book trend. If Amazon says it, it is true.

 

Setting a trend with this book would be fine by me!

 

I also know some colleges and high schools use it for summer reading.

[creekland]

I have found the same to be true, about telling people a lot about yourself. Not even necessarily the SAME kind of background people will come out of the woodwork, but just dysfunction. I am continuously suprised at how eager people are to tell you about their insane mother or father who was kind of a bad guy, or growing up with a high needs sibling or something.

 

I think a great deal of.people are really extremely lonely.

 

And I definietly don't think people are "wrong" to hold their personal information close. I love LOVE the point you make about de facto pre-emptively stopping people from making thoughtless comments about xyz. I try to point that out whenever I feel like I can socially get away with it. Someone making a "joke" about an std, and abortion, a rape, spousal abuse or poverty or whatever in anything the very CLOSEST company.

 

I am so sensitive to this because I have been acutely burned so many times by people making jokes about trailer parks, and poverty by association...or uneducated and poor people (of the sort that offered me unrestriced love and support at a time when "normal people" had nothing but critisism for me and my parents)...... So many people I COULD have been potentially close to, I lost all trust in them the moment they made fun of something they very clearly don't understand. In the interest of getting a cheap, quick laugh, they alienated a potentially great friend.

 

People so often wonder, later in their lives, why they have found themselves without close personal relationships. Ime the answer is very often that they should have been kind when they didn't know kindness was called for.

 

Not many people IRL know much about my family - esp parts of it - or my upbringing.

 

But I've found I don't get bothered by those making jokes or statements or whatever.  Perhaps it was due to that year in Florida mixing with the "other" class.  I see it all as lack of knowledge rather than anything personal, and I just can't bring myself to fault anyone for lack of knowledge since none of us know it "all" from the crib.  We can only know what we've experienced.

 

In class, when "inappropriate" things come up - or even gray areas being painted as black or white - I always try to get kids to THINK rather than slamming down on them.  It always ends up with much better results.

 

eg  "I can't stand _____ people (insert race, religion, gender, political affiliation, or similar).  They are so ______."

 

My response is always along the lines of, "Interesting, what makes you say that?" followed by a discussion looking at actual facts more than stereotypes.  The discussion can often carry on for days in small bits, but I've never had a student continue to keep their beliefs as strongly as they start with them.  Many outright change.  Getting them to critically look at things is always a win.

 

Our admin will merely crack down on any such statement if alerted to it.  They'll punish to get the student to be quiet.  You can stifle the words, but it never actually changes the heart.

 

With adults it can be far more difficult.  I never succeeded in getting my MIL to be less racist (sigh), but deep down in my heart I still feel it's ignorance based upon what she was taught - then never getting to truly "know" others.  I'm glad her views have ended (in her family line) with her.  Both of her boys started racist.  It's how they were brought up, but neither are now.  My FIL is far less racist than he used to be - far, far less - so it can happen.