Dyscalculia - end of elementary and still struggling..

[zenjenn]

So my daughter hasn't been formally diagnosed with dyscalculia, but she is mildly dyslexic (diagnosed), and I am assuming has dyscalculia as well just from working with her all these years.

 

We're approaching the end of 5th grade and she still struggles some.

 

I will say she's made a LOT of progress, she's pretty decent at problem solving, and if given time and paper to work with, she can do quite well.

 

But at the end of 5th grade, she still does not have a firm grasp on all her math facts. She has at least SOME memorized, but which ones she has memorized changes from month to month - I swear. Just when she learns new ones, the old ones slip from her memory.

 

Her mental math abilities are also incredibly slow.

 

I'm not sure what else I can do to help her. I've used all the standard resources out there and then some. Xtramath (daily for YEARS), Math Rider, Khan Academy, flash cards, math games, verbal quizzing, etc etc. 

 

Just wondering if there is anything out there maybe that specifically targets students with dyscalculia to help? After all these years I feel like we're just spinning our wheels with the typical advice on helping math proficiency. Our other child excels in math so I see how the standard resources work - they just don't work with this child.

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird

[OneStepAtATime]

Yep, try Ronit Bird.  Go back to basic subitization skills.  And read all the other posts here on the LC board with all the people who are dealing with what you are dealing with.  You are not alone, nor is your child.  I have a soon to be 8th grader who is just now starting to be able to do double digit addition and subtraction at anywhere close to normal speed.  And we have to review on a regular basis so concepts and computational skills are not lost.  I am using the Math on the Level checklist to keep track and do review, but you could create your own.

[zenjenn]

Thanks. I think someone suggested Ronit Bird to me, and I was reluctant because it seemed like awfully expensive for what I was afraid might just come down to a book advising me to do stuff I've already done (c-rods, familiar math games, etc.)

 

My mother who was a 3rd teacher for 20 years claims she NEVER had a student that didn't completely know their multiplication facts cold by the end of the year. Her claim confuses me because I swear I've done EVERYTHING she has advised and then some.

 

My only explanation is that she never followed her challenged kids into the next year. Or the next. I've gotten my DD to know all her multiplication facts down cold, too - for a short period of time. It's just that she doesn't retain them. :(

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, I must agree, your mom must not have ever followed the kids up into the higher levels.  My DD had a 2nd grade teacher that insisted she was doing fine with basic multiplication table stuff and would be o.k. in 3rd even though I thought she seemed slow and had some difficulty with retrieval.  

 

Then DD had another teacher for 3rd - 5th that finally realized she was not retaining the material long-term, but didn't really see it until half way through 4th.  And I think the only reason she really noticed was because she had her for more than one year.  Otherwise, I don't know that she would have been aware that DD kept losing math facts.  She was getting good at counting on her finger and she understood the concept behind multiplication so DD was able to get by in class.  The teacher probably wasn't aware that she was counting on her fingers.  The teacher finally seemed to grasp that there were issues in mid-4th and asked me  to work with her at home.  I explained that I was (and I was working with her every night and on weekends and through the summers) but if she had suggestions I was willing to listen to anything.  She made some suggestions which were basically just a lot of drill and kill.  I tried that and some other things but nothing really helped.  

 

The teacher did not approach me again, though, about any issues in  class and DDs grades started improving.   We thought that maybe DD was finding better ways to function in the classroom.  She still struggled at home but her grades went from low Bs (and sometimes an A) to mainly high Bs and low A's.  Turns out that the teacher had no idea how to help, either, but she liked my daughter and didn't want to get fired so she started "helping" her pass tests.  We didn't realize until near end of 5th grade what was happening in class but I was aware that at home it was taking hours to complete math homework and she usually ended up in tears.  But she was making good grades.   At the time I thought that meant she was learning....

[Tokyomarie]

My son, now 19yo, probably still doesn't have his facts "down cold." He didn't as of his last assessment at age 17yo. He probably knows most but not all. Yet, he just finished Calculus 3. Great with concepts. Not so great with fluency.

[LaughingCat]

Zenjenn, I think your Mom is either very lucky or misremembering.

 

If you have an i device, Ronit Bird has 2 cheaper options on I-book.  Also I was able to get her books through ILL at my library.

 

If you want to try out a basic subitization exercise you could try dice (or dominos) and having her name the number for the dots as quickly as she can.  Also I've seen various subitizing exercises on pinterest.  And at teachmath.com there is a page that has domino activities for subitzing

[OneStepAtATime]

By the way, I still don't have my math facts down, either.  I was never able to memorize the multiplication tables for all the tables.  Multiplication Rock helped but not entirely.  DS is now using Math In Focus (like Singapore) and so far he and I both are really liking it.  DD is using some of the worksheets from MiF as she works through the remainder of her remedial math program and she plans to switch to TT during the summer but I intend to keep her working through MiF, too.  Just as Dialectica said, it helps you see how and why, not just one or the other.

[zenjenn]

OneStep, your daughter sounds so much like mine!

 

And Marie - my husband is also dyslexic and had some of these same issues with numeracy and arithmetic when he was very young. He's now an accomplished engineer and physicist (but still is slower with arithmetic stuff - for example, I'm much quicker at calculating a tip, reading analog clocks, estimating costs, etc, than he is - and I'm an artist.)

 

He keeps telling me to "not worry about it". His theory is that there is something in adolescence that mitigates the problem - for him there was something that 'clicked' around age 13 or 14.

 

I have a hard time "not worrying about it" though. It's my job to worry about it, especially since we're homeschooling. I'm thankful I have another child without this problem that I have taught as well so I can feel somewhat assured that it's not my fault. (Although I still feel like somehow I must be failing to meet her needs. So frustrating.)

 

Last year's standardized test she was 23rd percentile on math procedures. :(

 

Here's something interesting - on that test she was 'below average' in *all* computational sections except fractions. Fractions she was above average. 100% correct. Isn't fractions the thing most 4th graders struggle with the most?

 

Husband says this makes complete sense to him!

 

She scored average in computation in context and thinking skills.

 

She claims she feels like she improved on this year's test and I'll be very curious to see the results. She has improved a lot but she isn't where I'd hope she'd be. She's applying to a public state arts magnet school for 2015/2016. On one hand I want her to be fully prepared to enter a school environment after being homeschooled all this time, on the other I'm told the academic teachers there understand the "other" academic and emotional needs of creatively gifted kids. I hope that includes this arithmetic snafu!

 

 

[Heathermomster]

DS came home for a semester 5th grade. At that time, I realized that we needed to face the music and explore remedial math alternatives. The cost of an RB book is the about the same as one hour of OG reading remediation. I personally found Sousa's book How the Brain Learns Mathematics to be extremely helpful.

 

DS is diagnosed dyslexia and maths disability by an NP. Something like 50% of dyslexics have dyscalculia, and simple arithmetic is a separate process from maths requiring fluid reasoning; therefore, a student with arithemtic issues may very well move onto higher math thinking. My own child has a compromised processing speed and working memory plus dysgraphia. In spite all of that, he rocks probability.

 

Anyho.,The RB exercises were novel to us and very helpful. DS learned his facts late 5th grade. Once the facts were down, I would have him periodically review using a 10 key pad and software for 5 or so minutes, every few days to keep things fresh.

[OneStepAtATime]

I will mention one more thing.  Beast Academy.  Even though DD is 7th grade and the first book of Beast is supposed to be for 3rd grade math gifted students (or so I am told), she loves it.  She loves the puzzles and trying to figure things out.  She loves the geometry.  Straight computation is not nearly as interesting to her as doing Beast Academy so we do that for fun and it keeps her really interested in math.

[laundrycrisis]

What finally worked here was Mastering Mathematics.  It builds the fact library in very small increments, with a lot of practice for each new set and all the sets before.  It was what finally sorted out the "fact soup" that was so confusing.  

[PeterPan]

The RB ibooks that you buy through iTunes are a great way to try RB to see if it can help you.  Obviously look at them and see if what they're covering is what you need.  The Dot Patterns book is what I'm using now, and it's roughly the type of content in RightStart A.  (visualizing each number and then recognizing parts)  For my ds, each step takes days.  With an older dc, obviously they'd go through much faster.  I wish she had all the materials this way, as it's just really easy to work from for me.  On the other hand, if you know you're going to need to go farther faster, you could just buy the $40 book and be done with it.  I haven't bought it yet, so if you buy the $40 book and decide it's not what you need, you could pm me and sell it to me.  Seriously, I'll buy it off you.  I know I'm going to need to buy it.  :)

[zenjenn]

Just ordered the main book... we'll see!