When do I worry?

[Ritsumei]

My 7.5yo son's fine motor skills have been a struggle for him. He can easily count 100 in English and probably do it in Japanese. He likes negative numbers, and if I do the manipulatives right, he can solve basic algebra problems. We're doing a unit on fractals right now, jumping off "Let It Go" from Frozen, and he discovered square numbers and was literally jumping up and down, he was so excited.

 

But if I gave him a blank 100s chart to fill in, he would *struggle*. It would take all afternoon. If we did that, day after day, and I ragged on his awkward number formation, the joy he finds in math would drain right out, and he'd quickly decide he's not very good at math & hates it. I nearly *did* kill the joy trying to get addition facts fast enough to do a timed test, where I asked for 100 problems in 5 minutes. We did it for about 2 weeks, and he struggled to maintain 40-50 in 5 minutes. I decided it wasn't worth it; we'll drill other ways.

 

I am beginning to wonder: why is writing so stinking HARD for him? He still prints like a kindergartener. The letters are uneven, they're misshapen. We've talked about how to form them. I've shown him repeatedly. They just don't seem to improve. He asked me to teach him cursive, so I am, but we're back to a point where it takes an hour to write a sentence. I just don't understand. When is it more than "boys' fine motor develops later than girls'l"? Is it relevant to say that he is, in general, physically awkward?

[OneStepAtATime]

Your son may be dysgraphic.  Which just really means difficulty with writing.  And those difficulties can be extremely challenging to overcome.  DS has dysgraphia.  Timed tests are virtually impossible for him.  And results do NOT reflect his actual understanding of math.  When he was still in a brick and mortar he could not passed even one timed math test.  The teacher was telling me that he was not doing well in math.  But I knew he knew his basic math facts from 1st grade.  I asked the teacher if he was actually putting incorrect answers or just not finishing the test.  Sure enough, every problem he answered was correct.  He just couldn't write fast enough to finish.  After we finally had him assessed it became apparent that he had issues with dysgraphia, among other things.  We are still working on this two years later (and are now homeschooling).  I have completely eliminated timed tests for now.  It doesn't prove that he knows the material and caused tremendous stress.  He works on handwriting every day.

[Ritsumei]

Are there any really good places to get information about dysgraphia?

[boscopup]

My 7.5 year old is mathy and has trouble with writing (as did my oldest at that age), but speed drills... 100 problems in a sitting? That's a LOT for that age. My son uses CLE Math (and Beast Academy), and CLE speed drills only have him doing 32 problems in a sitting at the 2nd grade level. My oldest does the 5th grade level for quick practice, and even his speed drills are way less than 100 (his are one minute, but I can't remember how many problems - it's in the twenties, I think).

 

I've found speed drills to be useful for my kids, but daily drills of 100 in a sitting would be WAY too much.

 

For number formation, I really like the sayings that R&S and CLE use. They were helpful to my kids. I also gradually increase the writing necessary, so they don't get overwhelmed but do get stretched. I'm working on legibility with my first grader now, erasing anything I can't read. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I need to be able to tell what the number is. He's getting better.

[OneStepAtATime]

Are there any really good places to get information about dysgraphia?

These are some sources that might be helpful.

 

http://www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/dysgraphia?gclid=CNSmiuKb-b0CFbBj7Aodi0AAOQ

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mislabeled-Child-Solutions-Challenges/dp/1401308996

 

I would like to mention that many people that have heard this term assume that the issue is strictly difficulty with fine motor skills.  But in actual fact it can be a lot more complex than just needing to practice fine motor skills.  There is a growing body of scientific evidence that there are many subsets of dysgraphia.  For some it is the fine motor skills, for some it is the neurological process itself, whether in trying to translate the idea into symbols, or trying to tell your body how to write the letters/numbers that you have now translated in your head into symbols, etc.  Writing is a very complex process.  For most of us the steps happen "behind the scenes" so to speak.  For someone having difficulty in one or more of those invisible steps handwriting can become quite challenging.

[73349]

While you work on helping him with the writing issue, you could take most of the writing out of math. You can scribe for him, or have him use tiles or stamps, or do things orally. Then math can be just about math.

[OneStepAtATime]

While you work on helping him with the writing issue, you could take most of the writing out of math. You can scribe for him, or have him use tiles or stamps, or do things orally. Then math can be just about math.

I agree, scribing can help so he can continue advancing in math without the handwriting issue bogging him down and interfering with learning.  I also agree with boscopup that you need to help him continue practicing writing.  He needs to continue building muscle strength and muscle memory.  Just don't tie his ability to write to his ability to prove he is understanding content.

 

We are using a cursive handwriting program that I really like.  I have started using some of the suggestions in there for other types of handwriting activities.  The child traces or copies the letter (or number) they are learning several times then goes back and circles the letter they think most closely resembles the original letter they are trying to learn/copy.  It is the child that determines which letter is closest.  Then I usually have DS describe what it is about the letter he drew that he thinks looks like the other letter.  He is then focusing on the part or parts that came close or are like the original instead of all the things that didn't turn out well.  It has boosted his self-esteem, improved his handwriting, and kept him more enthusiastic about actually doing things by hand.  He is so much more cognizant now of all the parts that go into forming a letter or a number and being more mindful of the parts he does better at forming the whole.

 

Another thing we do is mix up the various modes of writing.  Although I have him work with pencil and paper every day, and I also scribe a lot for him, he also does a lot of work on dry erase.  He can move faster when writing with a dry erase marker and he doesn't wear out as quickly.  I keep our day balanced between all of these.

 

There is actually software to help with math problems so the individual doesn't have to write out everything all the time.   It can be used for higher level maths but I assume it could be used for elementary math as well.  I have not used it yet but intend to start incorporating it or something like it when we get to more complex math for SOME of our math work each day.  There are a few versions by different companies.  Here is a link to a previous thread regarding this:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/502038-has-anyone-heard-of-mathtype/?hl=math+typing

 

HTH....

[Ritsumei]

While you work on helping him with the writing issue, you could take most of the writing out of math. You can scribe for him, or have him use tiles or stamps, or do things orally. Then math can be just about math.

We do lots of this. Across the whole curriculum, and not just math. A "big" writing day probably includes 2 sentences, one for a history narration and one for his journal. Maybe a few numbers, depending on what we do, but we use Miquan, which is very manipulative-driven, so it's not a lot of writing. I tried the timed tests because I remember doing them about his age, and I wanted to make sure that he was *solid* before I let him forge ahead into the challenging stuff that he prefers. We backed off that, though, at least for now.

[Ritsumei]

These are some sources that might be helpful.

 

http://www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/dysgraphia?gclid=CNSmiuKb-b0CFbBj7Aodi0AAOQ

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mislabeled-Child-Solutions-Challenges/dp/1401308996

 

I would like to mention that many people that have heard this term assume that the issue is strictly difficulty with fine motor skills.  But in actual fact it can be a lot more complex than just needing to practice fine motor skills.  There is a growing body of scientific evidence that there are many subsets of dysgraphia.  For some it is the fine motor skills, for some it is the neurological process itself, whether in trying to translate the idea into symbols, or trying to tell your body how to write the letters/numbers that you have now translated in your head into symbols, etc.  Writing is a very complex process.  For most of us the steps happen "behind the scenes" so to speak.  For someone having difficulty in one or more of those invisible steps handwriting can become quite challenging.

 

 

OK, so I'm looking at this page, from the NCLD site, and I'm seeing that he's got some of the warning signs. Here's some pictures, the ones with the marker board were from February. We were doing a bit of dictation from AAS. It says, "Has an ox." The third one is from earlier this week. It's supposed to say, "The pilgrims were important because they were the first to come to America looking for freedom." The reversals, I'm not super worried about; they're gradually getting less, and he's noticing them now, part of the time, without me having to say it. But this little bit of writing, from a model, took between 45 minutes and an hour, and it's horrible. There are whole *words* missing. I need to figure out if this is a little boy who doesn't like writing, so he does it poorly and is easily distractible, or is there something deeper going on here. Having only the 7.5yo, I have nothing to compare him too, and he's so gifted in some areas, it can be easy for me to mistake ordinary, age-appropriate work for a problem. Basic stuff like starting a sentence with a capital and ending with punctuation is an ongoing problem, which is not his norm. Usually he picks up on things very quickly.

[MistiDelaney]

I am not an expert, by any means.  However Caboose Boy was unable to write at 7.5.  It was a struggle- his writing was appallingly bad and it took ages.  My husband pointed out to me that *he* had had the same problem as a child because he has what he calls "mitten hand".  Very big, very low dexterity hands. My husband has the most beautiful handwriting of anyone I know, so I dropped it entirely until he was 10.  We just didn't do anything with penmanship - he answered verbally for everything.  We did, however, send him to a drawing class where the standards were low and the teachers were encouraging and kind.  He attended the class mostly for social reasons for three years.  It kept a pencil in his hands with low expectation.

 

Soon after he turned ten, we started working with him on his handwriting again.  His hands had loosened up quite a bit and while he still had to work at it, but now, a week before his 11th birthday, people comment about his beautiful handwriting pretty regularly.

 

Sometimes, it just takes time.

[wapiti]

One additional suggestion:  when writing is necessary, try a white board.  There is less friction than with pencil and paper and sometimes it's just plain more fun.  But, yes, I'd do as much orally as makes sense, with you scribing, etc.

[OneStepAtATime]

Since you are homeschooling, I agree with the suggestion to back off a bit.  Give him more time to mature before requiring much writing.  But keep him doing something with pencil/pen and paper so the muscles and muscle memory develop.  Also, you might try to find dry erase boards with the lines included.  It really helps DS to see the dotted dividing line and the guide lines so he knows where to place the letters.  I have them in several widths for the lines.  We started out pretty wide and have slowly been using the smaller and smaller version.  I also print out practice pages using smaller and smaller lines from the Start Write software.

 

As for seeking concrete answers and possibly an evaluation, even if you were to get a formal diagnosis of dysgraphia, I am not sure how much that would gain you, except for possibly some accomodations with regard to standardized testing later on.  He struggles a bit with writing.  You are aware of his struggles.  Doing some research and working with him at home based on whatever the recommendations are may help quite a bit.  You may not need anything else.  If he were in ps I would probably have a different recommendation.

 

The other option would be to seek the advice of your pediatrician (if you have a fairly knowledgeable one, which we did not) and possibly look into Occupational Therapy.  To be honest, we have considered OT for DS10 because he still has difficulty not just with handwriting but other coordination issues.  Not severe but he is definitely aware that his sister has amazing dexterity and gross/fine motor skills compared to him.  He gets burned trying to cook things, drops things, spills things, etc.  OT might help him smooth out some of the issues and gain some confidence in this arena.  We just haven't actively pursued this yet since we haven't found anyone in our area that we trust to do a good job.

 

You can also look at some assistive technologies.  Perhaps Kidspiration.  I think he is a bit young for Dragon Naturally Speaking to work well, but I am attaching a link to both.

 

http://www.inspiration.com/Kidspiration

 

http://shop.nuance.com/store/nuanceus/Custom/pbpage.resp-dragon-home-bf-2013-digital?utm_medium=ps&utm_source=Google&utm_campaign=Dragon&utm_term=dragon+naturally+speaking&cvokeywordid=137796643&siclientid=2868&sessguid=9ce4568c-b8cc-4f96-9004-4d3e9e5c3954&userguid=9ce4568c-b8cc-4f96-9004-4d3e9e5c3954&permguid=9ce4568c-b8cc-4f96-9004-4d3e9e5c3954

 

HTH....

[kbutton]

I know some people find that an OT evaluation and therapy can help with handwriting. It can also be a problem with eye tracking or some other eye issue. You would want to see a COVD optometrist (developmental optometrist) to see if this is the case. A regular optometrist will not check everything that can potentially contribute to problems with motor skills.

 

My son has mild dysgraphia. He has some motor issues. He has some vision issues. None are severe by themselves, but working on vision has helped with some things (like catching a ball).

[Cheriwe]

I know some people find that an OT evaluation and therapy can help with handwriting. It can also be a problem with eye tracking or some other eye issue. You would want to see a COVD optometrist (developmental optometrist) to see if this is the case. A regular optometrist will not check everything that can potentially contribute to problems with motor skills.

 

My son has mild dysgraphia. He has some motor issues. He has some vision issues. None are severe by themselves, but working on vision has helped with some things (like catching a ball).

 

I agree. My son had tracking issues as well.  And really poor handwriting.  I took him to my optometrist who noted that he had trouble "tracking". She referred him for a full OT evaluation and he does have tracking issues.  We are going to start visual therapy soon. 

[CrunchyGirl]

If your gut tells you there is a problem, get testing and get help. I say this as a mom of a child with a serious health issue (not learning related). I may have many regrets in life but on this one I do not. I listened to my gut. I sought help for my daughter and I am thankful for that.

 

I'm glad you're getting lots of good advice. It's worth checking it out.